John McCain rejects endorsement of radical cleric John Hagee

[Chris_]

No. I can't prove that God doesn't exist.

Then why do you try so ardently to get us to believe as fact that He does NOT exist?

You can't prove He exists.

How can you then so factually state he does not?

A while back "smart people" said there was no proof that the earth was round, therefore it was definately flat.
 

[Chris_]

Then why do you try so ardently to get us to believe as fact that He does NOT exist?

You can't prove He exists.

How can you then so factually state he does not?

My Sunday School teacher many decades ago would posit that he is being "convicted by the Holy Spirit"......

doc

[Lord Undies]

Not at all, but I am not surprised you don't see the difference?  You are willfully ignorant and for some reason it is incredibly important to you that Hagee be thought of as being equally or more as despicable as that raving anti-American Wright.  I don't know what's in it for you personally, but I have to tell you, it isn't working out for you.

Did you even bother to watch the video?  

Let me lay this out for you...

The United States government, under President George W. Bush, is supportive of the two state solution to the Israeli-Palestinian situation. Pastor Hagee believes that if the US government continues its policy of support for the two state-solution then God will "unleash" terrorists on the US. In other words, Hagee believes that the people of the United States deserve to be attacked for a policy which their government is currently pushing. If Hagee's belief that the people of the United States deserve terrorist attacks for their government's position on the Israeli-Palestinian situation is not an anti-American position then I don't know what is.

Let me lay it out for YOU-

No, Hagee is not saying he thinks anyone "deserves" to be attack...and you know this.  Hagee states out loud what he assumes the Bible is telling him.  He is warning, not hoping or calling for it.  As you well know.  Stop being so willfully stupid and obtuse or go find another message board to haunt.  You are getting old fast. 

DIRECT QUESTIONS:  Why is it so incredibly important to you that Hagee be thought of as being equally or more as despicable as that raving anti-American Wright?  Does it help you support your worldview?  What is in it for you personally?


(Repost.  I was thinking this may have been overlooked at the bottom of the last page)

[The Night Owl]

No, Hagee is not saying he thinks anyone "deserves" to be attack...and you know this.  Hagee states out loud what he assumes the Bible is telling him.  He is warning, not hoping or calling for it.  As you well know.  Stop being so willfully stupid and obtuse or go find another message board to haunt.  You are getting old fast.

If Mr. Hagee believes that God will punish the US by unleashing terrorists on it, then he must believe that God would be justified in doing so.

You can't have it both ways... If you believe that God is righteous, then you have to believe that those who are the recipients of God's punishment deserve it. To believe that God would dole out punishment to those who don't deserve it is to believe that God is an unfair and malevolent tyrant.

DIRECT QUESTIONS:  Why is it so incredibly important to you that Hagee be thought of as being equally or more as despicable as that raving anti-American Wright?  Does it help you support your worldview?  What is in it for you personally?

People are entitled to their delusions about Mr. Hagee. All I'm doing is pointing out my take on the guy.

[DixieBelle]

Have you ever noticed that some atheists brand religious bellief as irrational and dangerous? People like Richard Dawkins and Christopher Hitchens do not make moral arguments about religion. Rather, they have created a new form of fundamentalism that attempts to permeate society with ideas about our own moral superiority and the omnipotence of human reason. There are stringent rules and rigid traditions in place as strict as those of any religious practice. Those who have placed blind faith in the morally neutral disciplines of reason and science create idols in their own image.

(that was paraphrased from a book I read called I Don't Believe in Atheists).

[The Night Owl]

Then why do you try so ardently to get us to believe as fact that He does NOT exist?

You can't prove He exists.

How can you then so factually state he does not?

I don't claim to know for certain whether God exists or not. I don't believe that God exists but I'm not absolutely certain about it.

[Rebel]

I don't claim to know for certain whether God exists or not. I don't believe that God exists but I'm not absolutely certain about it.

Ain't it gonna be a bitch when you die and find out the opposite?

[The Night Owl]

Have you ever noticed that some atheists brand religious bellief as irrational and dangerous? People like Richard Dawkins and Christopher Hitchens do not make moral arguments about religion. Rather, they have created a new form of fundamentalism that attempts to permeate society with ideas about our own moral superiority and the omnipotence of human reason. There are stringent rules and rigid traditions in place as strict as those of any religious practice. Those who have placed blind faith in the morally neutral disciplines of reason and science create idols in their own image.

(that was paraphrased from a book I read called I Don't Believe in Atheists).

You should probably let Mr. Hitchens speak for himself. A complete audiobook of Christopher Hitchens reading his book God is not Great...

http://www.youtube.com/user/AudioBooksR4U

Listen, if you dare.

[Chris_]

I don't claim to know for certain whether God exists or not. I don't believe that God exists but I'm not absolutely certain about it.

Ain't it gonna be a bitch when you die and find out the opposite?

Agnosticism is a perfectly valid perspective.  Too bad TNO can't spell it much less understand it (can you feel the wind whistle past your ears as he Googles the term?)

Pascal's Wager is a bit cynical for my likes. (*whoosh* -- Google search #2).

I think we should let children like TNO off the leash from time to time -- so long as he doesn't get lost in the crowd.

[The Night Owl]

Ain't it gonna be a bitch when you die and find out the opposite?

Maybe. Of course, if God is as benevolent and loving as it is said to be, then I'm sure it will be understanding of why I couldn't bring myself to believe.

[Lord Undies]

If Mr. Hagee believes that God will punish the US by unleashing terrorists on it, then he must believe that God would be justified in doing so.

That's a bunch of twisted bullshit.  There is no way you can honestly believe just because Hagee reports what the Bible says he believes what is reported is justified.  That's just stupid.

I can read to you the warnings off a jug of bleach, and if you decide to drink it anyway, I would not be the bad guy.  I merely told you what was in the warning.  It also does not mean I agree the bleach should kill you.

You can't have it both ways... If you believe that God is righteous, then you have to believe that those who are the recipients of God's punishment deserve it. To believe that God would dole out punishment to those who don't deserve it is to believe that God is an unfair and malevolent tyrant.

No, once again, you are being obtuse.  One does not have to agree with God.  One is compelled by God to be honest about what He said.  Just like the bleach jug label.

People are entitled to their delusions about Mr. Hagee. All I'm doing is pointing out my take on the guy

.

You still haven't answered the question, all you do is dance:

DIRECT QUESTIONS:  Why is it so incredibly important to you that Hagee be thought of as being equally or more as despicable as that raving anti-American Wright?  Does it help you support your worldview?  What is in it for you personally?

[Rebel]

Maybe. Of course, if God is as benevolent and loving as it is said to be, then I'm sure it will be understanding of why I couldn't bring myself to believe.

I wouldn't count on it. You've already rejected him.

[The Night Owl]

Agnosticism is a perfectly valid perspective.  Too bad TNO can't spell it much less understand it (can you feel the wind whistle past your ears as he Googles the term?)

http://www.conservativecave.com/index.php/topic,6405.msg77852.html#msg77852

Pascal's Wager is a bit cynical for my likes. (*whoosh* -- Google search #2).

If you think that I am operating under Pascal's Wager, then you lack an understanding of what it is.

[Chris_]

Agnosticism is a perfectly valid perspective.  Too bad TNO can't spell it much less understand it (can you feel the wind whistle past your ears as he Googles the term?)

http://www.conservativecave.com/index.php/topic,6405.msg77852.html#msg77852

Pascal's Wager is a bit cynical for my likes. (*whoosh* -- Google search #2).

If you think that I am operating under Pascal's Wager, then you lack an understanding of what it is.

No, I am reacting to your comment, not the fact you don't understand what PW is.  Your Google-fu is weak, young child.

[Chris_]

Ain't it gonna be a bitch when you die and find out the opposite?

Maybe. Of course, if God is as benevolent and loving as it is said to be, then I'm sure it will be understanding of why I couldn't bring myself to believe.

Nope.  It's entirely your choice as to where you spend eternity.

Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.   John 14:6

Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.  Mark 16:16

Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.  John 3:18

Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him."  John 3:36

Trust in the LORD with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding;  Proverbs 3:5

since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them.  For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.  Romans 1:19-20

In his pride the wicked does not seek him; in all his thoughts there is no room for God.  Psalm 10:4

[The Night Owl]

No, I am reacting to your comment, not the fact you don't understand what PW is.  Your Google-fu is weak, young child.

Oh, you can rest assured that I understand Pascal's Wager but I can't rest assured that you understand it because anyone who understands it knows that it is worse than, as you put it, "a bit" cynical... it is dishonest and cowardly.

[The Night Owl]

Nope.  It's entirely your choice as to where you spend eternity.

I'm going wherever the strippers, booze, and gambling are.

[Chris_]

Nope.  It's entirely your choice as to where you spend eternity.

I'm going wherever the strippers, booze, and gambling are.

You won't find that in either of your two choices.   

[The Night Owl]

You won't find that in either of your two choices.   

Dammit! Well, that sucks.

[dandi]

From Merriam-Webster Dictionary...

Main Entry: 1rad·i·cal 
Pronunciation: \ˈra-di-kəl\
Function: adjective
Etymology: Middle English, from Late Latin radicalis, from Latin radic-, radix root — more at root
Date: 14th century
1: of, relating to, or proceeding from a root: as a (1): of or growing from the root of a plant <radical tubers> (2): growing from the base of a stem, from a rootlike stem, or from a stem that does not rise above the ground <radical leaves> b: of, relating to, or constituting a linguistic root c: of or relating to a mathematical root d: designed to remove the root of a disease or all diseased and potentially diseased tissue <radical surgery> <radical mastectomy>
2: of or relating to the origin : fundamental
3 a: marked by a considerable departure from the usual or traditional : extreme b: tending or disposed to make extreme changes in existing views, habits, conditions, or institutions c: of, relating to, or constituting a political group associated with views, practices, and policies of extreme change d: advocating extreme measures to retain or restore a political state of affairs <the radical right>
4slang : excellent, cool

I think we can safely say that John Hagee's views are a considerable departure from the usual or traditional. I mean, how many Christians believe that God sent Adolf Hitler to Earth to hunt the Jews? Not any I know. And, how many Christians believe that the Holocaust was a divinely mandated action? Not any I know.

John Hagee is not just a radical cleric. He is a swine.

You've never bothered to read the book of Ezekiel, have you?

[The Night Owl]

You've never bothered to read the book of Ezekiel, have you?

No. Should I?

[dandi]

You've never bothered to read the book of Ezekiel, have you?

No. Should I?

Before you condemn another man as a "radical cleric", maybe you should educate yourself on the text from which he speaks. 

The book of Ezekiel spells out very clearly that God was going to punish the Israelites by killing 1/3 of them by the sword, killing 1/3 by famine and disease, and scatter the remnant to the wind, but they would be regathered in the promised land.

[Chris_]

Nope.  It's entirely your choice as to where you spend eternity.

I'm going wherever the strippers, booze, and gambling are.

Yes you are.

[The Night Owl]

Before you condemn another man as a "radical cleric", maybe you should educate yourself on the text from which he speaks. 

The book of Ezekiel spells out very clearly that God was going to punish the Israelites by killing 1/3 of them by the sword, killing 1/3 by famine and disease, and scatter the remnant to the wind, but they would be regathered in the promised land.

The fact that Mr. Hagee's words might have some basis in Scripture does not make them any less radical or repugnant than they are. If some religious zealot were to proclaim, as Moses is said to have proclaimed in the Book of Leviticus, that children who disobey their parents must be killed, would you not describe that proclamation as being both radical and repugnant?

[dutch508]

he wouldn't be the first idiot, or the last, to think they know the word of God.