The age old women vs. men debate

[DixieBelle]

I've been watching this subject with interest on wizbang. There has been a lot of back and forth over the impact of Feminism, the need for men to "man up" as it were, etc...I'm going to post some snippets - talk amongst yourselves 

http://wizbangblog.com/content/2008/05/02/women-are-you-worthy-of-a-real-man.php

As much as men may be missing out on what it means to be a real man, women have this problem a hundredfold worse. The state of women today is alarming, and a significant portion of the blame can be laid at the feet of modern feminism. Many women are walking stereotypes and hypocrites. They want a real man, a strong man, to take care of them -- but if he does, he's holding her down. They want to be strong, successful, and as respected in the boardroom as the male CEOs are -- yet they want special treatment to get there. They want to be lauded for their ability to birth children and for their mothering instincts -- but they don't want to be tied down at home, doing "all the work". They want their husband or boyfriend to respect them and make them feel appreciated -- but do nothing to make him feel loved, respected, and appreciated. They talk about being "empowered" -- yet still cry that women are victims.

They're walking, talking contradictions.

Manliness is really the willingness to sacrifice self for the benefit of others, particularly a man's children, wife, family, neighbors and country.

Most young men are willing to die for the respect, admiration and love of a worthy and chaste woman. The problem is that interaction with most women today leads them quickly to the conclusion that few women are worth dying for.

Right on the mark in my book.

The real men never left. The women stopped noticing us.

Now, that's profound and true!

While men are more and more emasculated in our society, there's no argument against the fact that it is because of women. Women insisted that men change. Women insisted that they show their emotions more and be less stoic; they insisted that men let themselves be more vulnerable. They try to train boys from infancy to be more feminine so that women can be more masculine.

And now what do we have? "Strong" women with an entitlement attitude and a victim mentality, while men meekly let themselves be walked all over, disrespected, and parodied left and right? Is this how anyone wants it to be?

While men have become emasculated sissy boys, women have become selfish, whiny bitches.

I agree

So what makes a women worthy of a real man? What does she need to do? I think a large part of the problem deals with the fact that too many women have zero respect and/or appreciation for the men in their lives and the sacrifices that they (the man) are making for them (the woman). How many TV shows today show a smart, strong father figure with a smart, strong wife? When I think of an ideal relationship, that's what I envision. I don't think a real man would ever want some meek, beta female to do everything he wanted. I think he would want a real woman, someone who was his equal, who he could not only love and cherish, but respect and admire.

Anyways, the point was that you can often look to television and pop culture to see what the prevailing attitude of the day is. And too often you see a stupid, lazy husband who's probably not very good-looking and overweight, with a beautiful, brilliant wife who is clearly above him and doesn't appreciate him in the least. He does a lot of smiling meekly and saying, "Yes, dear", while she castigates him in front of her girlfriends.

Why should this guy bother being a better man for her, when she so obviously has no respect for him.

And then you have to add in the masculinization of women. Feminism seems to view equality as "being exactly like a man". It doesn't allow for the fact that men and women are, indeed, different. So in order for women to be equal, they have to act just like men do -- drink like men, sleep around like men, cuss like men, etc. And while I'm sure it's momentarily thrilling, I somehow doubt that any man wants the drunk chick he saw making out with another girl at a party in the middle of a circle of cheering guys as the mother of his children, as someone he can respect. How is a man supposed to respect a woman who he knows has slept with a hundred different men without blinking an eye? With the advent of abortion on demand, birth control, and feminists cheering slutty behavior on, women have been "liberated" to... sleep around? And this strengthens and empowers women... how?

So what do we have? We have women who expect the world to be given to them, and when it isn't, demand special treatment and affirmative action to get it. They want a man who will do everything she asks of him and more, without ever showing appreciation or gratitude for him. They want to act like men, but be treated like women. They want everything, but are unwilling to do what it takes to get it.

They spent twenty years emasculating men, and eventually realized that it isn't what they want at all. And when they figured out that they wanted real men, many of them had disappeared or weren't interested.

Women need to take a step back -- a big step -- and do a lot of introspection. While yes, this is America, you can't have everything. You can accomplish anything you want, but it always comes with a price. And if women want a real man, then they're going to have to find it in themselves to be able to respect him, to appreciate all he does, and to work as hard as he does at their life, whether inside or outside of the home. I think most men are willing to do just about anything for their wives, if they knew that she was grateful and appreciative. Is it too much to ask to take our egos down a few pegs?

If women want real men to re-emerge, then they need to make themselves worthy of them.

[Toastedturningtidelegs]

As much as men may be missing out on what it means to be a real man, women have this problem a hundredfold worse. The state of women today is alarming, and a significant portion of the blame can be laid at the feet of modern feminism. Many women are walking stereotypes and hypocrites. They want a real man, a strong man, to take care of them -- but if he does, he's holding her down. They want to be strong, successful, and as respected in the boardroom as the male CEOs are -- yet they want special treatment to get there. They want to be lauded for their ability to birth children and for their mothering instincts -- but they don't want to be tied down at home, doing "all the work". They want their husband or boyfriend to respect them and make them feel appreciated -- but do nothing to make him feel loved, respected, and appreciated. They talk about being "empowered" -- yet still cry that women are victims.

They're walking, talking contradictions.

ABSOLUTELY! The modern feminist movement has single handedly done more to destroy marriages and male children than all other things combined IMO,meaning that feminism tends to put the individual{female} above all in importance while portraying men to be dumb, bumbling,sex addicted,lazy assholes.When male children grow up seeing this especially when dear old dad has already been castrated its no wonder most men in this country have lost their balls and ability to not only speak up for themselves or challenge women about anything. Women have become a protected class in this country and its time for that to end. There is something to be said for the traditional roles males and females played in the past....It Worked! Flame away!

[jtyangel]

Well, as long as men remember that some women have no fallen into that trap but have 'modern' husbands who do not respect their role as a mother to their children and their wife. It's hard not to want to get back in the workplace, just to earn a piece of respect from something. It works both ways.

There are plenty of us out there too who EARN the respect we get at work or in our education. I'd love to have a nice career, but I have never asked for special privelege to get there. My 4.0 I have right now, the accolades I did get when employed were all got on my own hard work. I wouldn't have it any other way. What better way to prove your worthiness then to actually have EARNED the degree, position, designation that you have?





One last thing...men and women BOTH allowed this to happen. I do think men have to take some responsibility since lets face it for a lot of men it was easier all around...feminism made it easier to get in women's pants, feminism made their workload easier since they could send their wife out to be a breadwinner, feminism made their responsibility as fathers diminished as well. Things never happen in a vacuum...for every 'strong' woman out there there was a weak man all to happy to let go of his responsibilities and character as a man so that he could enjoy his newfound laziness. Just something to think about. 

[Splashdown]

ABSOLUTELY! The modern feminist movement has single handedly done more to destroy marriages and male children than all other things combined IMO,meaning that feminism tends to put the individual{female} above all in importance while portraying men to be dumb, bumbling,sex addicted,lazy assholes.When male children grow up seeing this especially when dear old dad has already been castrated its no wonder most men in this country have lost their balls and ability to not only speak up for themselves or challenge women about anything. Women have become a protected class in this country and its time for that to end. There is something to be said for the traditional roles males and females played in the past....It Worked! Flame away!

While I agree with what you're saying on its surface, I can't lay all the blame of the emasculation of our species on the feminist movement alone--we men deserve exactly half the blame. We allowed these nutjobs to infiltrate our schools, churches (yes, churches too), and public discourse. Feminism may have done the castrating, but it was some of us who were willingly led to the table. When men have sex indiscriminately, put their junk in any willing hole, and then don't stick around to accept the responsibility, we deserve part of the blame.

Here come the bitch slaps. I can feel 'em...  

[Lauri]

i tend to agree that feminists did themselves and all womankind no good; i guess being mid 40s, i should have felt a huge benefit from feminism - but it appears to me that most women really want to be at home taking care of their families.

im a stay at home mom and i just dont have time to work; without me this family doesnt survive and i give my husband the freedom to do what he needs to do (work late or travel) so that he can succeed and that benefits our family to a high degree.

it works for us. and most of our neighbors are the same way; mom stays home and dad works and right now our lives are our kids.

i find it hard to believe it will always be this way for me. when my 8 year old is older, probably in college, i will seek out work again.. but its never been an 'either/or' problem for me. i can have work and family, i just chose not to while raising kids.

where feminists get it wrong is thinking you can either do it all at once, or one OR the other... life is fluid and having a family doesnt mean you are a slave to them your entire life.

[Toastedturningtidelegs]

Well, as long as men remember that some women have no fallen into that trap but have 'modern' husbands who do not respect their role as a mother to their children and their wife. It's hard not to want to get back in the workplace, just to earn a piece of respect from something. It works both ways.

There are plenty of us out there too who EARN the respect we get at work or in our education. I'd love to have a nice career, but I have never asked for special privelege to get there. My 4.0 I have right now, the accolades I did get when employed were all got on my own hard work. I wouldn't have it any other way. What better way to prove your worthiness then to actually have EARNED the degree, position, designation that you have?





One last thing...men and women BOTH allowed this to happen. I do think men have to take some responsibility since lets face it for a lot of men it was easier all around...feminism made it easier to get in women's pants, feminism made their workload easier since they could send their wife out to be a breadwinner, feminism made their responsibility as fathers diminished as well. Things never happen in a vacuum...for every 'strong' woman out there there was a weak man all to happy to let go of his responsibilities and character as a man so that he could enjoy his newfound laziness. Just something to think about. 

One last thing...men and women BOTH allowed this to happen.

No argument on that ,men{i use that term loosely  } let this happen. Its a vicious circle no doubt about that.

[Toastedturningtidelegs]

ABSOLUTELY! The modern feminist movement has single handedly done more to destroy marriages and male children than all other things combined IMO,meaning that feminism tends to put the individual{female} above all in importance while portraying men to be dumb, bumbling,sex addicted,lazy assholes.When male children grow up seeing this especially when dear old dad has already been castrated its no wonder most men in this country have lost their balls and ability to not only speak up for themselves or challenge women about anything. Women have become a protected class in this country and its time for that to end. There is something to be said for the traditional roles males and females played in the past....It Worked! Flame away!

While I agree with what you're saying on its surface, I can't lay all the blame of the emasculation of our species on the feminist movement alone--we men deserve exactly half the blame. We allowed these nutjobs to infiltrate our schools, churches (yes, churches too), and public discourse. Feminism may have done the castrating, but it was some of us who were willingly led to the table. When men have sex indiscriminately, put their junk in any willing hole, and then don't stick around to accept the responsibility, we deserve part of the blame.

Here come the bitch slaps. I can feel 'em...  

No argument from me there Splash. Men let this shit gain ground until it spiraled to where we are today.

[Splashdown]

This topic is one of my pet peeves, by the way!


One more thing:

The real disservice that the feminist movement and the sexual revolution perpetrated on our society is the idea that you can have/do it all. Parenthood requires sacrifice. You must be an adult to be a parent. If you're not willing to make sacrifices for your children, if you're not aware that your world revolves around your family, then you have no business engaging in sex--man or woman.

 

[DixieBelle]

totally agree that men and women let it happen. One of the comments I read said: "It wasn't the lack of men standing up or the amount of women asserting themselves, it was the lack of adults all around that allowed this to happen."

Men and women are different. Get over it folks. (Not you guys! The world in general) 

We each serve a vital role. But more importantly, it's not about keeping score. I have never believed that marriage is a 50/50 proposition. If you each decide you're only responsible for exactly half, then inevitably, you will find yourself staring at the other person wondering when they are going to meet you in the middle by holding up their half. Marriage is a 100/100 proposition. You each give 100% all of the time. That way, if one of you needs to be propped up for whatever reason, you've got the support you need. I know that sounds simplistic, but it works and once you filter out all of the politically correct B.S., you can see it's not that complicated.

[Lauri]

older men, perhaps... maybe they did take advantage of women who had looser morals. but what about the generations of little boys being raised by feminists? those kids didnt have a chance really.. their moms tried to get them to play with dolls and express their emotions more.. cause that was what being 'a real man' was all about; being in touch with their feminine side.

i have my little leftie mom across the street who is trying, in vain, to produce a 'real man' in her two year old. he is all boy, but she wants him to play with dolls and listen to Hannah Montana with his older sister - and neither of the kids is buying it.

but she tries.

the rest of us tell her to knock it off and let the kid breathe.. her reply? "I just want him to be the best man he can be!" well, sad to say.. but no woman on earth can teach a little boy how to be a man. that's a man's job. or more to the point, that's a dad's job.

[jtyangel]

This topic is one of my pet peeves, by the way!


One more thing:

The real disservice that the feminist movement and the sexual revolution perpetrated on our society is the idea that you can have/do it all. Parenthood requires sacrifice. You must be an adult to be a parent. If you're not willing to make sacrifices for your children, if you're not aware that your world revolves around your family, then you have no business engaging in sex--man or woman.

 

The mens lay the gauntlet down

[jtyangel]

totally agree that men and women let it happen. One of the comments I read said: "It wasn't the lack of men standing up or the amount of women asserting themselves, it was the lack of adults all around that allowed this to happen."

BINGO!

[jtyangel]

older men, perhaps... maybe they did take advantage of women who had looser morals. but what about the generations of little boys being raised by feminists? those kids didnt have a chance really.. their moms tried to get them to play with dolls and express their emotions more.. cause that was what being 'a real man' was all about; being in touch with their feminine side.

i have my little leftie mom across the street who is trying, in vain, to produce a 'real man' in her two year old. he is all boy, but she wants him to play with dolls and listen to Hannah Montana with his older sister - and neither of the kids is buying it.

but she tries.

the rest of us tell her to knock it off and let the kid breathe.. her reply? "I just want him to be the best man he can be!" well, sad to say.. but no woman on earth can teach a little boy how to be a man. that's a man's job. or more to the point, that's a dad's job.

Women don't raise children in a vacuum though. For every woman throwing dolls at their son, there is a father just sitting by letting it happen(or a father who shirked his responsibility alltogether and left a woman to raise a child alone). It's what Dixie said, it is the lack of adult behavior on both sides that led to this.

[Splashdown]

I have "friends" who refuse to let their sons play with toy guns...too violent. What do the boys do? Make guns out of legos and shoot at each other!

[Toastedturningtidelegs]

older men, perhaps... maybe they did take advantage of women who had looser morals. but what about the generations of little boys being raised by feminists? those kids didnt have a chance really.. their moms tried to get them to play with dolls and express their emotions more.. cause that was what being 'a real man' was all about; being in touch with their feminine side.

i have my little leftie mom across the street who is trying, in vain, to produce a 'real man' in her two year old. he is all boy, but she wants him to play with dolls and listen to Hannah Montana with his older sister - and neither of the kids is buying it.

but she tries.

the rest of us tell her to knock it off and let the kid breathe.. her reply? "I just want him to be the best man he can be!" well, sad to say.. but no woman on earth can teach a little boy how to be a man. that's a man's job. or more to the point, that's a dad's job.

I think thats what I was trying to get at,but still there was a passive man who could have stopped it. To the second bold...Amen sistah!

[jtyangel]

I have "friends" who refuse to let their sons play with toy guns...too violent. What do the boys do? Make guns out of legos and shoot at each other!

I always find that amusing when biology overrules the sensitivities of their parents. 

[DixieBelle]

older men, perhaps... maybe they did take advantage of women who had looser morals. but what about the generations of little boys being raised by feminists? those kids didnt have a chance really.. their moms tried to get them to play with dolls and express their emotions more.. cause that was what being 'a real man' was all about; being in touch with their feminine side.

i have my little leftie mom across the street who is trying, in vain, to produce a 'real man' in her two year old. he is all boy, but she wants him to play with dolls and listen to Hannah Montana with his older sister - and neither of the kids is buying it.

but she tries.

the rest of us tell her to knock it off and let the kid breathe.. her reply? "I just want him to be the best man he can be!" well, sad to say.. but no woman on earth can teach a little boy how to be a man. that's a man's job. or more to the point, that's a dad's job.

exactly!!!! I weep for my son some days. He has mentioned more than once that marriage is pointless. Yes, I know he's just a kid and not even capable of thinking along those lines yet. But he really doesn't see any value in it. Society has done that. I have a younger brother who thinks the same way. He's 34, divorced with a 13 year old son he can see any time he likes. He's a bachelor who comes and goes as he pleases, he dates casually, spends his money on whatever he wants (his son obviously comes first though). Tell me where the incentive is for him to remarry? There is none. That's sad to me.

[Toastedturningtidelegs]

I have "friends" who refuse to let their sons play with toy guns...too violent. What do the boys do? Make guns out of legos and shoot at each other!

My oldest just made a thompson sub machine gun out of wood{its pretty cool actually } My other two boys are constantly making guns and swords and various other weapons of destruction from either scrap wood,legos,and tree branches and duct tape

[DixieBelle]

I have "friends" who refuse to let their sons play with toy guns...too violent. What do the boys do? Make guns out of legos and shoot at each other!

My oldest just made a thompson sub machine gun out of wood{its pretty cool actually } My other two boys are constantly making guns and swords and various other weapons of destruction from either scrap wood,legos,and tree branches and duct tape

Mine too God love 'em.

[Splashdown]

I have "friends" who refuse to let their sons play with toy guns...too violent. What do the boys do? Make guns out of legos and shoot at each other!

My oldest just made a thompson sub machine gun out of wood{its pretty cool actually } My other two boys are constantly making guns and swords and various other weapons of destruction from either scrap wood,legos,and tree branches and duct tape

Mine too God love 'em.

Gives me hope for the future!

[jtyangel]

I have "friends" who refuse to let their sons play with toy guns...too violent. What do the boys do? Make guns out of legos and shoot at each other!

My oldest just made a thompson sub machine gun out of wood{its pretty cool actually } My other two boys are constantly making guns and swords and various other weapons of destruction from either scrap wood,legos,and tree branches and duct tape

Mine too God love 'em.

Mine constantly wrestle each other to the ground and knock each other over.  It hurts to watch. 

[DixieBelle]

I have "friends" who refuse to let their sons play with toy guns...too violent. What do the boys do? Make guns out of legos and shoot at each other!

My oldest just made a thompson sub machine gun out of wood{its pretty cool actually } My other two boys are constantly making guns and swords and various other weapons of destruction from either scrap wood,legos,and tree branches and duct tape

Mine too God love 'em.

Gives me hope for the future!

Oh I've sparred with coat hangers, paper towel rolls, rubber band guns, legos, sticks, branches, broom handles, etc...we have a lot of fun.

[Lauri]

ABSOLUTELY! The modern feminist movement has single handedly done more to destroy marriages and male children than all other things combined IMO,meaning that feminism tends to put the individual{female} above all in importance while portraying men to be dumb, bumbling,sex addicted,lazy assholes.When male children grow up seeing this especially when dear old dad has already been castrated its no wonder most men in this country have lost their balls and ability to not only speak up for themselves or challenge women about anything. Women have become a protected class in this country and its time for that to end. There is something to be said for the traditional roles males and females played in the past....It Worked! Flame away!

While I agree with what you're saying on its surface, I can't lay all the blame of the emasculation of our species on the feminist movement alone--we men deserve exactly half the blame. We allowed these nutjobs to infiltrate our schools, churches (yes, churches too), and public discourse. Feminism may have done the castrating, but it was some of us who were willingly led to the table. When men have sex indiscriminately, put their junk in any willing hole, and then don't stick around to accept the responsibility, we deserve part of the blame.

Here come the bitch slaps. I can feel 'em... 

No argument from me there Splash. Men let this shit gain ground until it spiraled to where we are today.

well, not to bash women, but if a man actually tried to dissent then women cried "FOUL!" and "gender discrimination!" .. the PC police got on men's butts pretty fast - men learned to keep their mouths shut.

its been a huge detriment to society and failed as a social experiment.

[Toastedturningtidelegs]

I have "friends" who refuse to let their sons play with toy guns...too violent. What do the boys do? Make guns out of legos and shoot at each other!

My oldest just made a thompson sub machine gun out of wood{its pretty cool actually } My other two boys are constantly making guns and swords and various other weapons of destruction from either scrap wood,legos,and tree branches and duct tape

Mine too God love 'em.

Gives me hope for the future!

Oh I've sparred with coat hangers, paper towel rolls, rubber band guns, legos, sticks, branches, broom handles, etc...we have a lot of fun.

Ever done any bike jousting? Me and the boys have!

[Lauri]

older men, perhaps... maybe they did take advantage of women who had looser morals. but what about the generations of little boys being raised by feminists? those kids didnt have a chance really.. their moms tried to get them to play with dolls and express their emotions more.. cause that was what being 'a real man' was all about; being in touch with their feminine side.

i have my little leftie mom across the street who is trying, in vain, to produce a 'real man' in her two year old. he is all boy, but she wants him to play with dolls and listen to Hannah Montana with his older sister - and neither of the kids is buying it.

but she tries.

the rest of us tell her to knock it off and let the kid breathe.. her reply? "I just want him to be the best man he can be!" well, sad to say.. but no woman on earth can teach a little boy how to be a man. that's a man's job. or more to the point, that's a dad's job.

Women don't raise children in a vacuum though. For every woman throwing dolls at their son, there is a father just sitting by letting it happen(or a father who shirked his responsibility alltogether and left a woman to raise a child alone). It's what Dixie said, it is the lack of adult behavior on both sides that led to this.

well, that may be ... in this instance the dad tries pretty hard to get mom to back off and she just has her own ideas about what is right and wrong and she is not at all mature yet about how to let the dad be a part of the process. i find this with some stay at home moms; they feel that since they are with the kids most of the time, its their way or the highway. they set the rules and dad is just kind of partially there at the end of the day and weekends.

granted, dad needs to be more vocal about standing his ground but in this case, and i kid you not, this dad was raised by a lesbian mom who was artificially inseminated. this mom and dad are oregon hippie transplants that are learning pretty quickly that their kids need boundaries and discipline - but mom has been dragging her heels, thinking it will injure their little souls.

i rarely find dads who think that way .. but youre right, it takes the input of both parents to balance the kids out and set the tone for the family. its definitely not easy.. even when parents agree.