Assisted Suicide and the slippery slope

[Splashdown]

The Dr. Kevorkian thread and some subsequent comments got me to thinking about the whole assisted suicide question.

Members like Eupher and Rich T, both of whom I have the highest respect for, mentioned that we should have the right to end our life with dignity. Although I disagree, I'd like to explore this topic further.

I'm pro-life. I believe in the value of life from conception to natural death. Although I disagree, I can see an argument for those with imminently terminal diseases.

What about someone suffering from depression? How about the early stages of Altzheimers? What happens if a person is too sick to make the decision?

[Eupher]

I'm really torn on this issue -- believe me when I say I didn't make that decision lightly.

History makes note of occasional miracles that happen when a person awakens from a decades-long coma, for example, or somehow a long-term lingering, chronic illness just "goes away".

These issues can and do occur, but in the final analysis, I just don't think we can routinely plan for them.

Life, as precious as it is, is tenuous. Our loved ones are ripped from us at times when we least expect it. Seemingly healthy people decline and die almost in front of our eyes, or in the case of accidents they are here today, gone tomorrow.

The kind of situation that we're addressing isn't any of those, however. We're talking about confirmed, rock-solid diagnoses from unbiased and impartial medical authority that pretty much nails it shut for us. There are all kinds of illnesses out there that are inevitably fatal -- fatal familial insomnia, for example. In 100% of cases experienced to date, there is a 100% mortality rate.

As in all social issues, government is ready, willing, and able to step in and "help." This is the point at which I throw the BS flag down. Government is always ready to enact legislation, increase regulation, require oversight, and otherwise restrict personal freedoms. Bullshit. I don't trust the government one iota, and if anyone thinks that the government "helps" in situations like this, they're living in la-la land.

All I want is the opportunity to address whatever disease I might have privately, gracefully, and without prejudice. I want no government or legal interference with my OWN prognosis. Medical authority should have free rein to advise me in accordance with biological, psychological fact.

Let ME make the decision. I will consult with those who are closest to me, not some ******* impersonal politican or limpdick ambulance chaser who is going to "rescue" me from me. Screw that.

If I want to explore assisted suicide, I should be able to do that. If I decide that is the way I want to go, my family should not have to worry about potential legal ramifications.

In any event, I have an obligation to make a complete assessment as to what my options are. If some bullshit politician "decides" on my behalf that I'm not capable of making that assessment, where the hell are MY rights at that point?

Government has a role -- but protecting me from me isn't one of them.

[Gina]

I think each man is in charge of their fate.  I don't agree with suicide and I hope not to have those thoughts one day.  It must be a very sad life to even contemplate destroying one's life.

[marv]

The solution is a living will. Both my wife and I have one. Both wills specifically state that no effort of resuscitation is to be made.

BTW, Nancy Cruzan was a distant niece. Later, her father Joe, committed suicide because of the excessive press coverage.

[rich_t]

The solution is a living will. Both my wife and I have one. Both wills specifically state that no effort of resuscitation is to be made.

BTW, Nancy Cruzan was a distant niece. Later, her father Joe, committed suicide because of the excessive press coverage.

I living will doesn't cover situations like the various forms of fatal cancer, or other fatal diseases where the patient does not fall into the category of needing resuscitation.  Things like comas caused by sudden injury or fast acting illness is another kettle of fish.

[Splashdown]

I have no hard statistics to back this up, but I'd wager that lots of suicidal desires come from people who are clinically depressed--a treatable disease. Should people who have untreated depression get the green light for assisted suicide?

For the record, the whole "my body my choice" meme doesn't work for me, for the same reason that it doesn't for abortion and slavery, illegal drugs, prostitution, etc., etc.

[rich_t]

I have no hard statistics to back this up, but I'd wager that lots of suicidal desires come from people who are clinically depressed--a treatable disease. Should people who have untreated depression get the green light for assisted suicide?

For the record, the whole "my body my choice" meme doesn't work for me, for the same reason that it doesn't for abortion and slavery, illegal drugs, prostitution, etc., etc.

Okay a few things here.... 

Should people with untreated depression be forced by government mandate to get treated?

I'm not sure where you are getting the slavery issue from here.

BTW....   Most drugs that are currently illegal were quite legal once.  The difference being that somebody or a group of somebodies thought that they should be able to dictate to others what substances they can use.  NYC is trying to ban the use of salt.  They have already banned the use of trans fats.

But that is another discussion in and of itself.

If a woman wants to earn a living as a prostitute, that's her business.  It seems to work well enough in Nevada.

But then again that is a different discussion.

As for me...  If I am stricken by a debilitating disease that WILL kill me regardless of current medical science, and rob me of any semblance of a "quality" of life while I am waiting to die, I'd like the option of assisted suicide.  I'm not saying it is an option that I would exercise, but I don't want anyone else, especially not any branch of any government telling me it's not allowed.

One:  I don't want to live out my life in constant debilitating pain or so drugged up that I don't even know what is going on around me.

Two:  I don't want to put my loved ones through the trauma of watching me slowly wither away, thus prolonging my agony and theirs.

Three:  I don't want to burden my survivors with having to pay off tens or even hundreds of thousands of dollars in medical bills incurred by merely trying to delay the inevitable.

[rich_t]

I think each man is in charge of their fate.  I don't agree with suicide and I hope not to have those thoughts one day.  It must be a very sad life to even contemplate destroying one's life.

The way I look at is like this....

If I am already dying from some disease that will kill me soon anyway, I am not destroying my life.  The disease has already killed me, it's just a matter of when. 

I would like the option of making whatever decision is best for me and my loved ones based on what WE decide, not what somebody else wants to decide for us.

[Splashdown]

Okay a few things here.... 

Should people with untreated depression be forced by government mandate to get treated?

I'm not sure where you are getting the slavery issue from here.

BTW....   Most drugs that are currently illegal were quite legal once.  The difference being that somebody or a group of somebodies thought that they should be able to dictate to others what substances they can use.  NYC is trying to ban the use of salt.  They have already banned the use of trans fats.

But that is another discussion in and of itself.

If a woman wants to earn a living as a prostitute, that's her business.  It seems to work well enough in Nevada.

But then again that is a different discussion.

As for me...  If I am stricken by a debilitating disease that WILL kill me regardless of current medical science, and rob me of any semblance of a "quality" of life while I am waiting to die, I'd like the option of assisted suicide.  I'm not saying it is an option that I would exercise, but I don't want anyone else, especially not any branch of any government telling me it's not allowed.

One:  I don't want to live out my life in constant debilitating pain or so drugged up that I don't even know what is going on around me.

Two:  I don't want to put my loved ones through the trauma of watching me slowly wither away, thus prolonging my agony and theirs.

Three:  I don't want to burden my survivors with having to pay off tens or even hundreds of thousands of dollars in medical bills incurred by merely trying to delay the inevitable.

rich. Good points. The "slavery issue" often comes up in the "my body, my choice" argument. It is illegal for one to sell himself into slavery. It's an argument that we cannot, actually, do whatever we want with our bodies.

[rich_t]

rich. Good points. The "slavery issue" often comes up in the "my body, my choice" argument. It is illegal for one to sell himself into slavery. It's an argument that we cannot, actually, do whatever we want with our bodies.

It can be argued that working for someone else for a wage... be it dollars or other forms of compensation is a form of willful self imposed slavery.

During the hours of my employment, for which I am compensated in a manner that both I and my employer have mutually agreed upon, my time is not my own.  My time and therefore my body belongs to somebody else during those hours.  In this case it is something that I have willingly given up.

But if some government entity dictates what I can or cannot do with my body...  Allowing others to decide under color of law what my personal choices are...  Be it prostitution, drug use, food choices, assisted suicide etc.

That is true slavery.  My body is no longer my own.  I don't have the option of self choice.

IMO.

[delilahmused]

I have no hard statistics to back this up, but I'd wager that lots of suicidal desires come from people who are clinically depressed--a treatable disease. Should people who have untreated depression get the green light for assisted suicide?

For the record, the whole "my body my choice" meme doesn't work for me, for the same reason that it doesn't for abortion and slavery, illegal drugs, prostitution, etc., etc.

I come at this from a couple of different perspectives but I don't think assisted suicide should be open to anyone but those already dying. While I don't believe in forcing someone to take psych drugs unless they're a serious threat to others, when they are a danger I think they should be hospitalized until they're stable. I have mixed feelings about forcing someone who's a danger to only themselves being forced on medications. Just like anything else, if you don't want to get better you won't and you're sure not going to stay on your meds. All psych drugs have side affects. Sometimes the cure can be worse than the disease.

Cindie

[debk]

I think each man is in charge of their fate.  I don't agree with suicide and I hope not to have those thoughts one day.  It must be a very sad life to even contemplate destroying one's life.

I think you're trying to compare apples and oranges here...the only commonality is fruit - or in this topic - suicide.

Assisted suicide is basically what happens in a hospice. The person has been diagnosed with less than 6 weeks to 6 months, to live and is then admitted to the hospice to be cared for until they die. They are kept comfortable...pain free...  but there is nothing given to continue life. All treatment is stopped. In the case of some, nutrition is continued, in the case of others - even that is stopped, as it was in the case of my other half's father as the IV fluids to sustain life, was also causing his lungs to fill up and basically drown him. All fluids were stopped, and he "comfortably slipped away" about 24 hours after being admitted to the hospice. Since hospice is considered merciful, and a controlled environment, managed by professionals...it's legal.

But what about people who cannot afford hospice? Or those who choose to die at home? Without a medical professional on site, 24 hours a day, the family runs the risk of being investigated in the individual's death. At the very least, they need a visiting nurse coming at a minimum of once a day, to chart the person's decline.

What if you got a disease - ALS for example? Your body will slowly detiorate, but your mind will stay alert. How long do YOU want to tolerate the detrioration? Until you are wheelchair bound? Until you must wear diapers and can no longer feed yourself and dependent upon others to feed you and clean you? Until you are nothing but a lump on a hospital bed (provided you can afford one either at home or in a facility) no longer able to do anything but think, with your perfectly good brain, how totally miserable you are and how devasting this is for your family?

Do you really want to wait for every part of your body to slowly die off, until your body finally calls it quits? No control over anything - not what happens to you physically or your care?

Or at some point in time would you rather just be able to go while you still have the ability to make the choice of not only when you go, but with some sense of control? You know it's going to happen, it's inevitable. But YOU would be the one in control. YOU would be the one making the decision to end it. Not waiting for your body to betray you more than it already has. YOU would be the one not only avoiding watching yourself become a hopeless and helpless vegetable, but also preventing your family from going through years of suffering the emotional stress of not being able to "fix" you and possibly from financial ruin trying to care for you. 

Personally...I'm such a control freak...I want to be the one making the decision to end it.

Yes, I do believe suicide is wrong, and it's a very very VERY selfish act. Also, if it fails, it can be considered - and is in some states - an illegal act because it's attempted murder.

"Assisted suicide" needs to be called something else....take the word suicide out of it. Using the word "suicide" implies it is an act of despair, rather than an act of controlling one's time of death due to circumstances - not of your choice - that are preventing you from living the full and healthy life you anticipated.

[Eupher]

 

well said, deb.