Student Backs Teacher In Fight To Keep Bible On Desk

[Toastedturningtidelegs]

You can guess where the primitives come out on this To be fair The Straight Story primitive actually has it right but the but a moonbat challenges him

The Straight Story  (1000+ posts)       Fri Apr-18-08 06:51 AM
Original message
Student Backs Teacher In Fight To Keep Bible On Desk
 Student Backs Teacher In Fight To Keep Bible On Desk

MOUNT VERNON, Ohio — A former student of a teacher who refused a district's request to remove a Bible from his desk told 10TV News on Thursday that religious items in his classroom were nothing new.

John Freshwater, a science teacher at Mount Vernon Middle School, held a rally earlier this week after his superiors asked him to remove the Bible from his desk, 10TV's Tanisha Mallett reported.

Freshwater said he was willing to go to court over the issue.

"The removal of it from my desk would be nothing short of an infringement on my own deeply held personal religious beliefs granted by God and guaranteed under the free exercise clause of the First Amendment of the United States Constitution," Freshwater said.

http://www.10tv.com/live/content/local/stories/2008/04/...

Great, now people are afraid of books.
 

A couple of primitives agree with him and then

Snarkturian Clone (1000+ posts)      Fri Apr-18-08 07:11 AM
Response to Original message
3. Is the teacher reading it out loud to the kids? 
 Jesus ****, what's the big deal if it's on his desk if he's not reading it to kids or evangelizing. I work at a school that would make Duer's flip being that it's a public charter school and half our teachers were hired out of the local church. There's bibles on their desks, prayers said at assemblies and professional developments, Christmas celebrations, etc. and our students are different religions besides Christian... about 25% are muslim and another 10% are Yahweh ben Yahweh.

Guess what? Nobody has exploded, or even complained, for that matter. I'm an atheist but that doesn't mean I should be offended at everything religious. People wish me happy Easter and Merry Christmas and I don't care. At least they're not saying "**** you!!! Religions is eeeevvills!!1" like many people on this board.

 
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 GaYellowDawg (1000+ posts)       Fri Apr-18-08 07:52 AM
Response to Reply #3
10. Do they teach evolution at your school?
 Or, like Mr. Freshwater, do they treat evolution as a "matter for debate" and tell all the "problems" with evolution? Just wondering.
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 GaYellowDawg (1000+ posts)       Fri Apr-18-08 07:13 AM
Response to Original message
4. It's not fear of books. It's endorsement of religion.
 Why can't he keep it in a drawer? Having it out on top of the desk is an endorsement of a particular religion, and that is prohibited. Having to have it out on top of the desk tells you he's trying to send a message. The man is grandstanding.

There's no clause, verse, or belief that compels Christians to keep Bibles on public displays at their workplace. A workplace is simply that: a place of work. Not a place of worship. He's not being told he can't have a Bible. He's not even being told he can't have a Bible in his classroom. He's being told he can't endorse it by putting it on display. There's no infringement on his rights. There's an infringement on his proselytization - in other words, infringement on his endorsement while acting as a government employee (and, for that matter, as an authority figure).

And, like so many fundamentalists, the teacher with his grandstanding has apparently completely forgotten Matthew 6:5-6: "And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by men. I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full. But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you."
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 The Straight Story  (1000+ posts)       Fri Apr-18-08 07:29 AM
Response to Reply #4
6. It's a history book
 Some use it for religious purposes.

They have one laying about in congress, and they swear people in with one.

Sometimes, tradition is not a bad thing.

If seeing a book on a desk freaks someone out or makes them feel compelled to change their views, or feel they are not part of the group, then they have a lot bigger issues to deal with and should seek professional help.

If the teacher had 1984 sitting on his desk or something else akin to it would it be an issue? Why do only books which some use for religion get people all upset?

 
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 GaYellowDawg (1000+ posts)       Fri Apr-18-08 07:42 AM
Response to Reply #6
8. A history book? Wow.
 No, it's not. "Some use it for religious purposes"? I think the vast majority of people who use the Bible use it for religious purposes. The Bible is a religious text. It's not very useful as a history book.

"Why do only books which some use for religion get people all upset?"

Please see the First Amendment. And again, using "some" is a pretty hard sell; ask 100 people whether the Bible is a history book or a religious text and you'd probably get 90+ responding that it's a religious text.

1984 is political commentary. Not the same thing at all. The First Amendment does not prohibit the government from endorsing political commentary.   

How having a bible sitting on a desk endorses religion is beyond me http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x3174438

[franksolich]

I dunno.

Right now, on this rainy spring morning in Nebraska, the cat Harold is sitting atop a biography of Leon Trotsky that's on the dining-room table.

I suppose that means Harold endorses a socialist.

[SSG Snuggle Bunny]

How having a bible sitting on a desk endorses religion is beyond me http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x3174438

To be fair I'd be extremely leery if a teacher kept a copy of the Koran, Mein Kampf or Das Kapital on their desk while my kids were in class.

The only reason why I wouldn't be concerned about the Bible is because it isn't the Koran, Mein Kampf or Das Kapital.

[Toastedturningtidelegs]

 

Squatch  (1000+ posts)       Fri Apr-18-08 08:22 AM
Response to Reply #16
17. If the teacher was preaching from the bible and not teaching the curriculum
 I would agree that that is verboten. However, anybody who construes the mere presence of a book as a de facto establishment of religion by the government is a ****ing idiot.

I'm sure you could walk into that school's library and find many copies of religious texts, either academic or theological. The mere presence of those books no more establish the government's position on religion than does the presence of any other book on any other subject.

[jtyangel]

Well, not to mention the fact that the school system is not encouraging or requiring the teacher to keep the Bible on his desk and 'promote' that religion. Putting aside the religious aspects, it is a book, the material is appropriate for children, so there is a no prohibition to it sitting on the desk. As far as the other books Snuggle's mentions, those don't concern me either...my father had books like that mixed in with books on birds, world art, and other historical happenings. He was just an avid reader and he also kept everything he ever used for his research assignments in college. The mere presence of a certain book on the bookshelf did not make him a Nazi or an art historian or an expert on birds. Hell, a Bible on someone's desk does not even mean they are a Christian, nor does its mere presence constitute promotion. Some of those DUmmies are absolutely right on that and at least are intellectually honest enough to understand the dangers of what basically amounts to a book burning.

[Toastedturningtidelegs]

How having a bible sitting on a desk endorses religion is beyond me http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x3174438

To be fair I'd be extremely leery if a teacher kept a copy of the Koran, Mein Kampf or Das Kapital on their desk while my kids were in class.

The only reason why I wouldn't be concerned about the Bible is because it isn't the Koran, Mein Kampf or Das Kapital.

What if a bible was sitting on the top of those three books? Would that bother you? I've never thought that information was a dangerous thing. If one raises their children as intelligent well rounded individuals they will have the tools to see the forest through the trees. I think we as a country try and shelter our kids to an extent that when they go out into the real world they have this unrealistic expectation of the world around them....then they become liberals

[jtyangel]

How having a bible sitting on a desk endorses religion is beyond me http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x3174438

To be fair I'd be extremely leery if a teacher kept a copy of the Koran, Mein Kampf or Das Kapital on their desk while my kids were in class.

The only reason why I wouldn't be concerned about the Bible is because it isn't the Koran, Mein Kampf or Das Kapital.

What if a bible was sitting on the top of those three books? Would that bother you? I've never thought that information was a dangerous thing. If one raises their children as intelligent well rounded individuals they will have the tools to see the forest through the trees. I think we as a country try and shelter our kids to an extent that when they go out into the real world they have this unrealistic expectation of the world around them....then they become liberals

I'm with you on this Toast. There is nothing inherently wrong with that material. A book is a book is a book. An idea is an idea is an idea. Hiding Mein Kampf for instance is about in line with Hitler book burnings of HG Wells and other 'non Nazi' ideas or the assault upon the Library of Alexandria or the burning of Martin Luther's translation of the Bible in the 1600's. Fortunately now it amounts to little more then ceremony since copies are preserved around the world in digital archives, but wishing to hide and suppress ideas historically has lead to destructing of cultural heritage.

[SSG Snuggle Bunny]

How having a bible sitting on a desk endorses religion is beyond me http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x3174438

To be fair I'd be extremely leery if a teacher kept a copy of the Koran, Mein Kampf or Das Kapital on their desk while my kids were in class.

The only reason why I wouldn't be concerned about the Bible is because it isn't the Koran, Mein Kampf or Das Kapital.

What if a bible was sitting on the top of those three books? Would that bother you? I've never thought that information was a dangerous thing. If one raises their children as intelligent well rounded individuals they will have the tools to see the forest through the trees. I think we as a country try and shelter our kids to an extent that when they go out into the real world they have this unrealistic expectation of the world around them....then they become liberals

That would require deeper inquiry.

It would depend on the context. Was the one being used to counter the three or the three being used to counter the one or were tyhey all being used to endorsed a morass of moral equivocation?

I have 2 books by Marx, 1 about Stalin and a primer on Marxism amid my myriad of tomes so I am more than sympathetic to your well-considered and fairly-voiced premise.

[Splashdown]

Sigh.

Why do liberals always say to question authority, but when someone questions one of their pillars, suddenly it is wrong to question at all? Whether it is when life begins or the theory of evolution, why is it they're the only ones who get to say what we get to question?

[Toastedturningtidelegs]

How having a bible sitting on a desk endorses religion is beyond me http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x3174438

To be fair I'd be extremely leery if a teacher kept a copy of the Koran, Mein Kampf or Das Kapital on their desk while my kids were in class.

The only reason why I wouldn't be concerned about the Bible is because it isn't the Koran, Mein Kampf or Das Kapital.

What if a bible was sitting on the top of those three books? Would that bother you? I've never thought that information was a dangerous thing. If one raises their children as intelligent well rounded individuals they will have the tools to see the forest through the trees. I think we as a country try and shelter our kids to an extent that when they go out into the real world they have this unrealistic expectation of the world around them....then they become liberals

That would require deeper inquiry.

It would depend on the context. Was the one being used to counter the three or the three being used to counter the one or were tyhey all being used to endorsed a morass of moral equivocation?

I have 2 books by Marx, 1 about Stalin and a primer on Marxism amid my myriad of tomes so I am more than sympathetic to your well-considered and fairly-voiced premise.

MSB I think information even if its something you don't agree with is not a bad thing.One can learn things from even the most wrong headed and evil people{even they can serve as an example of what not to do},so In my mind as long as there is an arena for a child to ask questions about said material and one is parenting their child I don't think there is much to worry about. I personally have a copy of Mein Kampf as well as books on Aleister Crowley,Anton Lavey and assorted books on some of the most evil human beings to ever walk the planet....And I also have a copy of the Holy Bible and my Sunday Missal...And I'm still a conservative!

[SSG Snuggle Bunny]

In an optimal world friend Toast; your words would ring true without any opportunity for rebuttal...

...but this is the public school system we're beset to talk about.

It places us in an awkward position of defending 1 teacher under the principle freedom-of-inquiry that has allowed a thousand others to impose dictated indoctrination.

I think my dilemma is valid and I think the crux of my position centers on the abolition of muli-culturalism; not the kind that is intellectually capable of studying all things (as I do) but the sort that says all cultures are equal. They most certainly are not. As I said in my 1st response, "I wouldn't be concerned about the Bible is because it isn't the Koran, Mein Kampf or Das Kapital." We can very well endorse a multiculturalism that reads from the Koran's "slay the infidel where you find them" with the Biblical refutation "there is neither Jew nor Greek, male nor female, bond nor free but all are one..." because the latter is superior.

[FlaGator]

I wish that  GaYellowDawg  and the other DUers would actually take the time to actually read and understand the Scripture that they love to quote. He has so misunderstood the intent of Matt 6:5-6...

[Chris_]

Or, like Mr. Freshwater, do they treat evolution as a "matter for debate" and tell all the "problems" with evolution? Just wondering.

I would hope that all teachers would treat evolution as a "matter for debate", and this has nothing to do with the evolution/creationism question.

[DixieBelle]

But ritual foot baths for Muslims are okay? Got it.

*yes, that has happened in public schools. Albeit universities but still, public ones.

And three years ago, my son's elementary school CLOSED the library during Ramadan. Yes, that's right. They closed the only library available to all students so that the Muslim students would have somewhere to fast and do their ritual prayers during the school day.

Funny, that only happend that year. Not sure why it didn't continue.......

[BlueStateSaint]

Sigh.

Why do liberals always say to question authority, but when someone questions one of their pillars, suddenly it is wrong to question at all? Whether it is when life begins or the theory of evolution, why is it they're the only ones who get to say what we get to question?

"Free speech for me, but none for thee."

That sums it up.

[dutch508]

I dunno.

Right now, on this rainy spring morning in Nebraska, the cat Harold is sitting atop a biography of Leon Trotsky that's on the dining-room table.

I suppose that means Harold endorses a socialist.

Cats are socialist. They invented it.

[The Night Owl]

The fact that the teacher is keeping the Bible on his desk instead of in his desk tells me that he is attempting to get away with creating a religious display in a public school... and that shouldn't be allowed because a religious display in a public school is tantamount to state endorsement of religion.

[jtyangel]

The fact that the teacher is keeping the Bible on his desk instead of in his desk tells me that he is attempting to get away with creating a religious display in a public school... and that shouldn't be allowed.

 

[Toastedturningtidelegs]

The fact that the teacher is keeping the Bible on his desk instead of in his desk tells me that he is attempting to get away with creating a religious display in a public school... and that shouldn't be allowed.

Aren't you assuming some things here TNO? How do you know whats in his mind and heart? By the way Religous groups use schools all the time for many things.I've had a Baptist group use a school I was in charge of many times.It never seemed to cause a problem and they kept what they were doing to themselves. By the way TNO the kids still say under God in the pledge every morning

[The Night Owl]

To be fair I'd be extremely leery if a teacher kept a copy of the Koran, Mein Kampf or Das Kapital on their desk while my kids were in class.

The only reason why I wouldn't be concerned about the Bible is because it isn't the Koran, Mein Kampf or Das Kapital.

The thing is... allowing a teacher to put a Bible on display in the classroom sets a precedent which allows other teachers to display items which represent their beliefs.

[The Night Owl]

Aren't you assuming some things here TNO? How do you know whats in his mind and heart? By the way Religous groups use schools all the time for many things.I've had a Baptist group use a school I was in charge of many times.It never seemed to cause a problem and they kept what they were doing to themselves.

Give me a good reason why the teacher doesn't put the Bible in his desk rather than on it and then I'll believe that he isn't keeping it there as a religious display.

By the way TNO the kids still say under God in the pledge every morning

Yep. I like the Pledge of Allegiance the way it was written in the first place... without the "one nation under God" part tacked on by religious zealots during the 1950s.

[Toastedturningtidelegs]

To be fair I'd be extremely leery if a teacher kept a copy of the Koran, Mein Kampf or Das Kapital on their desk while my kids were in class.

The only reason why I wouldn't be concerned about the Bible is because it isn't the Koran, Mein Kampf or Das Kapital.

The thing is... allowing a teacher to put a Bible on display in the classroom sets a precedent which allows other teachers to display items which represent their beliefs.

I got news for ya TNO they already do that. I have teachers here who are Buddists,Jews,Muslim as well as Christian and yes this is a public school in one of the most liberal states in the country. Guess what? No one makes an issue out of it!

[jtyangel]

Aren't you assuming some things here TNO? How do you know whats in his mind and heart? By the way Religous groups use schools all the time for many things.I've had a Baptist group use a school I was in charge of many times.It never seemed to cause a problem and they kept what they were doing to themselves.

Give me a good reason why the teacher doesn't put the Bible in his desk rather than on it and then I'll believe that he isn't keeping it there as a religious display.

By the way TNO the kids still say under God in the pledge every morning

Yep. I like the Pledge of Allegiance the way it was written in the first place... without the "one nation under God" part tacked on by religious zealots during the 1950s.

Oh come on TNO, I think you are over thinking this.

Give me good reason why the teacher doesn't put his drink on a table behind him instead of his desk...i think he deliberately is trying to knock it over onto expensive computer equipment.

Give me good reason why the teacher leaves his keyring with the Honda emblem right on his desk, I think he is deliberately trying to advertise for Honda in his classroom.

Give me good reason why he put little Johnny's paper on top of little Sue's, he must be biased based on gender.

Really, you can read too much into anything. I'd also like to know where you are afforded protection from religious symbols, books(unopened, sitting on a desk), etc?

[Toastedturningtidelegs]

Give me a good reason why the teacher doesn't put the Bible in his desk rather than on it and then I'll believe that he isn't keeping it there as a religious display.

I wouldn't have any idea TNO and neither do you by the way. Who's to say he doesn't study it on his free period? As long as he's not "preaching the word" to the kids he is allowed to have a bible in his classroom.

[The Night Owl]

I wouldn't have any idea TNO and neither do you by the way. Who's to say he doesn't study it on his free period? As long as he's not "preaching the word" to the kids he is allowed to have a bible in his classroom.

So, there you go. Because we can't come up with a good reason why the teacher keeps the Bible visibly on his desk, we can reasonably assume that he is doing so because he wants to it on display.