Markey: Republicans "passing legislation to destroy the whole wide world"

[NHSparky]

This from a state that keeps sending the likes of Deville, et al back to Beacon Hill, and Lurch, Bwaney, Tsongas, et al, to DC.

Glass houses, stones, shit like that. 

Well then there's the other expression--People who live in glass houses shouldn't masturbate during the daytime.

[formerlurker]

Glass houses????     Your house is completely shattered Sparky, but you keep throwing that RINO stone.

[NHSparky]

Glass houses????     Your house is completely shattered Sparky, but you keep throwing that RINO stone.

My house is shattered.  Awesome.  Mass hasn't done shit except pull the chain ever harder, but there you are, telling us where we're all the ****ed up ones.

Priceless, seriously.

Seriously, I love ya like a sister, FL, but this is one of those cases where you're wrong, and until something changes there, you're not going to convince me otherwise.

[true_blood]

Scott Brown has a war chest and no one can touch him (maybe Joe Kennedy, but he isn't running).    He wins in 2012 easily.    He took the seat held by a communist.   I really could give a flying fig if you think he's a RINO.

Didn't he vote for the "financial reform" that the communists put through? I don't see how that makes him look conservative, let alone "republican"?

[formerlurker]

My house is shattered.  Awesome.  Mass hasn't done shit except pull the chain ever harder, but there you are, telling us where we're all the ****ed up ones.

Priceless, seriously.

Seriously, I love ya like a sister, FL, but this is one of those cases where you're wrong, and until something changes there, you're not going to convince me otherwise.

Uh no.   I am not claiming MA is the conservative capital of the US.    I explained why (R) lost in 2010.  You are the one claiming things about NH you can't support.

The New England Republicans are far majority moderate conservatives.    That is just the way it is, so whining from the far right to demand different is just silly.  I am not saying you are whining, just the party when they paint the (R) members of Congress from the northeast as RINOs.  

[formerlurker]

Didn't he vote for the "financial reform" that the communists put through? I don't see how that makes him look conservative, let alone "republican"?

You live in MA don't you?   I am honestly stumped as to why this needs to be explained to you.   Would you rather Coakley in this seat?   

[NHSparky]

You live in MA don't you?   I am honestly stumped as to why this needs to be explained to you.   Would you rather Coakley in this seat?   

Again, that's ancient history.  Why is Patrick still in office?  Why is Tsongas, Markey, Frank, et al?  What changes did MA make in 2010?

[true_blood]

You live in MA don't you?   I am honestly stumped as to why this needs to be explained to you.   Would you rather Coakley in this seat?   

Yes, I do. They both suck ass.
Actually, 90% of them in Congress suck ass.

[NHSparky]

They paint with a pretty broad brush.  But frankly, NH has been the finger in the eye of New England more often than not.  VT used to be the same way until all the flatlander moonbats moved up from CT, NY, NJ, etc.

[formerlurker]

Again, that's ancient history.  Why is Patrick still in office?  Why is Tsongas, Markey, Frank, et al?  What changes did MA make in 2010?

Patrick in office because Cahill ran as independent.  Cahill dropped from race, Baker would be governor.  Of course Baker is a RINO anyway right?

Tsongas?  Lowell, Lawrence?   You need more of an explanation?

Markey, again -- look at the district

Frank? again, tough district but Bielat got 43% of the vote with half the money (or less than half).    Bielat is still a presence and will take him on again.    

[formerlurker]

They paint with a pretty broad brush.  But frankly, NH has been the finger in the eye of New England more often than not.  VT used to be the same way until all the flatlander moonbats moved up from CT, NY, NJ, etc.

More like the Canadians invaded from the North.   There are some pretty conservative parts of VT (Norwich University in in VT). 

[NHSparky]

More like the Canadians invaded from the North.   There are some pretty conservative parts of VT (Norwich University in in VT). 

And there are some pretty conservative areas of NH once you get outside Keene, Portsmouth, Durham, and along the CT River.

One thing I will give many (not all, but many) of the MA transplants to the I-93 corridor is that they do tend to be more conservative than the serious flatlanders like the Boston/CT/NY tourists, York/Kittery commuters, et al.

[franksolich]

Damn it, Sparky, sir, I always thought of you as a "big picture" man, but you surely aren't being that way here.

The Republican party leans conservative, the Democrat party leans liberal.

When Republicans are in control of Congress, the country seems to do okay, if not well.

When Democrats are in control of Congress, the country seems to do lousy at best.

So it's always best to have the Republicans control Congress.

If the Republicans can gain a majority by "tolerating" a few non-conservative Republicans in their ranks, so be it.  I can live with that.  I have no problems, for example, with Senators Snowe and Collins, and had no problems with former Senators Specter and Chafee.  Their political philosophies are (were) too soft for me, and it'd be better if people more reflective of the mainstream were in their places.

But that's not possible; no way would a Senator DeMint be elected from New England.

Given the alternative, one has to take what one can get.  It's not the best, but it's better than the alternative.

A liberal Republican votes for an (R) to be the leader in either house of Congress.

A conservative Democrat votes for a (D) to be the leader in either house of Congress.

The leader controls the agenda.

Liberal Republicans help conservatives by making the Republicans the majority party, and if "tolerating" a few liberals in a basically-conservative party helps make that party the majority party, I'm all for it.

If the votes of Snowe, Collins, and Brown help make the more-conservative party the majority party in the Senate after 2012, it's all good.

Remember, it was the liberal Republican Specter who got us two top-notch, grade-A, premium-quality Supreme Court justices more in tune with the mainstream of America.  If the Democrats had controlled the Senate at the time, well, I don't even want to think about what we would've gotten.

One has to take what one can get, and a liberal Republican is always better for conservatism than a "conservative" Democrat or, so help me, a liberal Democrat.

[NHSparky]

And what you fail to consider, sir, is that having the likes of Snowe, Collins, et al, serving in the Senate does the principles of conservatism and the Republican party not a whit of good.

LePage is proof that a conservative CAN win--albeit only when a suitably large field splits the votes, sadly.  In NH, Sununu was a conservative Senator, and may well run again.  Medrim Thomson was as conservative a man as you'll find anywhere.  Our current House speaker is also very conservative.

Frankly, FL is right in one regard--people are afraid of changing THEIR representation.  Look at the number of people who say Congress is screwed up, but ask those same people what they think of THEIR Senator or Representative, and they're just fine.

[formerlurker]

Excellent points Frank.  H5.

[franksolich]

And what you fail to consider, sir, is that having the likes of Snowe, Collins, et al, serving in the Senate does the principles of conservatism and the Republican party not a whit of good.

But sir, I strongly disagree.

The likes of them do conservatism a great deal of good.

The Republican party is essentially conservative, and so when the Republican party is in control of things, the agenda and policies and victories are, generally, conservative in nature.

If, to become the majority ideology (conservatism) requires that Republicans and conservatives "tolerate" a few left-of-center members in its ranks, that's a cheap price to pay for becoming the majority party.  Such fringe members don't ask for much, a trifle, a bagatelle, a toy, here and there, a few bones thrown their way.

LePage is proof that a conservative CAN win--albeit only when a suitably large field splits the votes, sadly.  In NH, Sununu was a conservative Senator, and may well run again.  Medrim Thomson was as conservative a man as you'll find anywhere.  Our current House speaker is also very conservative.

It would be nice, very nice, if every Republican were conservative, but in an imperfect world that's never going to be perfect, one does what one can, with what one can get.

And right now, the best Republicans (and conservatives) can get out of New England are left-of-center Republicans; the alternative being weird whacked-out far-left Democrats.

Electable left-of-center Republicans help make the more-conservative party the majority party, and the majority within that majority (i.e., in this case Republicans who are conservative) dictates agenda, policy, and the direction in which the country goes.

Frankly, FL is right in one regard--people are afraid of changing THEIR representation.  Look at the number of people who say Congress is screwed up, but ask those same people what they think of THEIR Senator or Representative, and they're just fine.

That's true, very true, but time is on our side.

These extreme far-left Democrats in Congress are not spring chickens, and in fact tend to be at least a generation older than Republicans in Congress more representative of the mainstream.

[NHSparky]

So how does one explain solid conservatives like Issa, Rohrbacher, and Royce, to name a few, in deep blue California, and barely Republican types like Lugar in Indiana?  I'd give other examples as well, such as former Senators Voinovich of Ohio, former Senator Jim Jeffords of Vermont, of and former Senator Specter of Pennsylvania.

Please, for the love of Christ, tell me how Jeffords was good for the Republicans.  Ditto Specter.  Same with Collins and Snowe, who, in some cases, are to the LEFT of some Democrats.

Principles, sir.  Principles.  One doesn't sacrifice them, one doesn't bend them.  One has them, or one does not.

[franksolich]

Excellent points Frank.

This ideology and party thing is an issue here in Nebraska, with our "conservative" Democrat Senator Ben Nelson.

Nelson won election twice as governor and twice as senator because of his reputation as a conservative, rather than a far-left fringe, Democrat.

But when push comes to shove, when the bottom line is reached, a conservative Democrat helps advance the liberal Democrat agenda, because he helps make the Democrats the majority party.

"Conservative" Ben Nelson helped conservatives not at all, because on the important issues, he went with party rather than with principles.

It's noble to go with principles, but in an imperfect world, that isn't going to happen.

I've only been cursorily, casually, keeping track, but it seems to me those such as Snowe, Collins, and Brown (and earlier, congressman Christopher Shays of Connecticut, or senators Specter and Chafee) have always voted on issues of substance with the party that elected them, suborning their more-liberal principles to help conservatives.

It's noble to go with principles, but in an imperfect world that will never be perfect, it isn't going to happen.

Not being God, I have no idea how the elections of 2012 are going to turn out, and it may yet be possible it'll be a cliff-hanger, the margin of control determined by only one or two members.  In which case conservatives should hail the presence of a few liberal Republicans, because they contribute to making the more-conservative party the majority party.

Or it could happen to be a Republican landslide, with more than enough conservative Republicans to make liberal Republicans less important, in which case I don't think anybody would be unhappy.  But unless and until that happens, one better take what he can get.

[franksolich]

So how does one explain solid conservatives like Issa, Rohrbacher, and Royce, to name a few, in deep blue California, and barely Republican types like Lugar in Indiana?  I'd give other examples as well, such as former Senators Voinovich of Ohio, former Senator Jim Jeffords of Vermont, of and former Senator Specter of Pennsylvania.

Once in a while it happens--it should happen more often, though, but it doesn't--that other qualities of an office-holder transcend his political party and ideology, liberal areas electing conservatives, and conservative areas electing liberals.  Personality, character, reputation, effectiveness.

Please, for the love of Christ, tell me how Jeffords was good for the Republicans.  Ditto Specter.  Same with Collins and Snowe, who, in some cases, are to the LEFT of some Democrats.

Prior to 2001, Jeffords helped make the Republican party, the party leaning conservative, the majority party in the Senate.  He went downhill after that, but I'm talking his earlier record.

Because Republicans were in control of the Senate during most of the Bush administration, this meant that Specter was chairman of the Senate Judiciary Committee, and so had significant say in the selection of Supreme Court justices (as would a liberal Democrat senator had the Democrats controlled the Senate).

Specter helped marshal through Alioto and Roberts, men more conservative than himself, and more reflective of the American mainstream.

As far as I can see, whenever the chips have been down, the liberals Snowe and Collins have thus far always come down on our side, not their liberal sides.

When the chips aren't down, it doesn't matter so much; "in all things essential, unity; in all other things, liberty (to dissent)."

Principles, sir.  Principles.  One doesn't sacrifice them, one doesn't bend them.  One has them, or one does not.

Yes, yes, of course.

But only God is perfect, man being fallible. 

The very best for which one can hope of another person is that he generally follow his principles with lapses here and there because of ambition or the hope of material gain or simple egoism; he's going to slip here-and-there.

[NHSparky]

As far as I can see, whenever the chips have been down, the liberals Snowe and Collins have thus far always come down on our side, not their liberal sides.

Obamacare.  'Nuff said.