Should same-sex marriage be legal?

[Ballygrl]

I never said I was.
Also, the term you are looking for is intersex, not hermaphrodite.

I'm confused, did you say you were a Hermaphrodite? or not? or are you a woman ie XX chromosone and you just feel you were born the wrong gender? And no, the term I use is the medical term that was used for years, for whatever reason the PC crowd needs to change terms. Hermaphrodite shouldn't be a term that people who suffer from it should be ashamed of, if they're born with XXY chromosone that's how they were born.

[Ballygrl]

My motivation was outlined at length in other posts on this thread.
Also included was the fact that I don't personally find the word "tranny" offensive.

If you didn't find it offensive then why make a point of it in your response to Eupher?

[MP_Sarge]

I'm confused, did you say you were a Hermaphrodite? or not? or are you a woman ie XX chromosone and you just feel you were born the wrong gender? And no, the term I use is the medical term that was used for years, for whatever reason the PC crowd needs to change terms. Hermaphrodite shouldn't be a term that people who suffer from it should be ashamed of, if they're born with XXY chromosone that's how they were born.

No, XXY chromosomes are an intersex condition called Klinefleter Syndrome, and has nothing to do with hermaphroditism.
Hermaphroditism [also known as ovotestes] is a distinct, completely separate form of intersex disorder, and can occur in people with XY chromosomes.

I did not claim to be intersex given our current definition of intersex, no.
I used intersex to demonstrate that biology is not black and white, male and female, and if you can accept that a person can be born with a penis and a uterus, then why is it such a stretch to imagine that a person can be born with a female body and a male brain.

I suspect that as medical science progresses, transsexuals will eventually be definitively diagnosed by medical science as suffering from an intersex disorder, wherein the brain develops separately from the body, most likely due to hormone imbalances during key points in the womb [for which there is already scientific evidence, in studies which measure finger lengths of transmen like myself, and indicate abnormally high levels of testosterone exposure in utero which may have forced the brain to develop as male, while the body did not.]

[MP_Sarge]

If you didn't find it offensive then why make a point of it in your response to Eupher?

As I've already said once, I explained it previously in other posts on this thread.
Read them.

[Ballygrl]

Well here's the medical definition of hermaphrodite:

http://medical-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/hermaphrodite

her·maph·ro·dite (hr-mfr-dt)
n.
An individual having the reproductive organs and many of the secondary sex characteristics of both sexes.

hermaphrodite
an individual whose body contains tissue of both male and female gonads. The ovaries and testes may be present as separate organs, or ovarian and testicular tissue may be combined in the same organ (ovotestis). The ovarian and testicular tissues may be present at the same time (synchronous hermaphrodite) or sequentially (when the sex organs appear one after the other; protandrous when the testes come first, protogynous when the ovaries appear first) See also hermaphroditism.

And I just watched a video talking about the difference between intersex and hermaphrodite and all they ended up discussing was intersex and all they said about hermaphrodites is that it's an outdated term and modern people prefer the term intersex, but that video didn't say there was a difference at all so it comes down to being PC I guess.

[Ballygrl]

As I've already said once, I explained it previously in other posts on this thread.
Read them.

I have, and sorry but I'm confused, you say 1 thing in 1 post and another thing in another post and I can't keep it straight at all.

[Thor]

So, what I see is a Rabbi interpreting the Jewish "Bible" in order to justify aberrations of humanity, hedonism, and other sexual deviancies. Ya know, Sodom & Gomorrah were destroyed for this very thing. It's no wonder that the USA has lost favor in God's eyes.

[MP_Sarge]

Well here's the medical definition of hermaphrodite:

http://medical-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/hermaphrodite

And I just watched a video talking about the difference between intersex and hermaphrodite and all they ended up discussing was intersex and all they said about hermaphrodites is that it's an outdated term and modern people prefer the term intersex, but that video didn't say there was a difference at all so it comes down to being PC I guess.

No, it comes down to people with XXY chromosomes having Klinefelters, and not hermaphroditism.
People with Klinefelters [and thus, XXY chromosomes] do not have the secondary sexual characteristics of both sexes, so even if the definition you linked was medically accurate [it isn't, it's a gross oversimplification of hermaphroditism], it still wouldn't apply to people with XXY chromosomes, who appear 100% male at birth [normal genitalia for a male child], and who typically aren't diagnosed until puberty or oftentimes later, during attempts to diagnose infertility.

[MP_Sarge]

So, what I see is a Rabbi interpreting the Jewish "Bible" in order to justify aberrations of humanity, hedonism, and other sexual deviancies. Ya know, Sodom & Gomorrah were destroyed for this very thing. It's no wonder that the USA has lost favor in God's eyes.

You realize that's not "a" Rabbi, that's the ENTIRE Jewish faith, right?

Do you no longer consider Judaism a valid faith?

That Adam and Eve were created by G-d as a hermaphrodite has been part of Jewish belief since the time of Philo the Greek.

[MP_Sarge]

I have, and sorry but I'm confused, you say 1 thing in 1 post and another thing in another post and I can't keep it straight at all.

As I said before, I will say again.
My reason for pointing out that "tranny" is an offensive term was solely because many people are unaware that it is considered such.
Eupher has known me for some time, and as such, I doubted his intent was to be personally offensive to me, which left the possibility that either, he was unaware the term was considered offensive, or was aware that I'm not a big baby and do not object to the use of the word.  The former seemed more likely than the latter, so I thought as a matter of courtesy I would mention that the word is considered offensive.

How awkward was it the first time you innocently used a profane word that you didn't realize was profane and offended someone?

[Ballygrl]

As I said before, I will say again.
My reason for pointing out that "tranny" is an offensive term was solely because many people are unaware that it is considered such.
Eupher has known me for some time, and as such, I doubted his intent was to be personally offensive to me, which left the possibility that either, he was unaware the term was considered offensive, or was aware that I'm not a big baby and do not object to the use of the word.  The former seemed more likely than the latter, so I thought as a matter of courtesy I would mention that the word is considered offensive.

How awkward was it the first time you innocently used a profane word that you didn't realize was profane and offended someone?

For whatever reason I tend not to use terms that I think might be offensive, if someone is gay I call them gay, I don't use other words to describe them.

[Thor]

You realize that's not "a" Rabbi, that's the ENTIRE Jewish faith, right?

Do you no longer consider Judaism a valid faith?

Well, I'll run this by my brother in law, a Rabbi. I'll see what he says about it all. The one web page you referenced, seemed as if it was only him trying to explain away things. As I saw it, it was akin to Fred Phelps trying to explain John 13:34.......

[MP_Sarge]

Is this a better source?
It's a very lengthy tract on the Midrash Haggadah, and quotes directly the portions of the Haggadah wherein it states that G-d created the first human as a hermaphrodite:
http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=587&letter=M

When you talk to your BIL, ask him about the discussions of the Rabbis in the Midrash Haggadah about the creation of Adam and Eve.

Aish.com is also another great source of Jewish learning: http://www.aish.com/sp/pg/48883387.html

[RealConservativePatriot]

I support civil unions. From a legal standpoint, banning same-sex marriage is unconstitutional. However, I also support traditional marriage and therefore oppose same-sex marriage. There are a lot of legal questions, but same-sex marriage in my view leads to same-sex adoption, which is not in the best interest of the uphold of the American family. So, I do support civil unions if states want to recognize them.

[gurn]

I support civil unions. From a legal standpoint, banning same-sex marriage is unconstitutional. However, I also support traditional marriage and therefore oppose same-sex marriage. There are a lot of legal questions, but same-sex marriage in my view leads to same-sex adoption, which is not in the best interest of the uphold of the American family. So, I do support civil unions if states want to recognize them.

No. Banning same sex marriage is not unconstitutional. States have the authority to ban them.
The legal definition of marriage is solely within the jurisdiction of each sovereign state.
The Federal Government has no power to either ban them, endorse or require them.

Before people talk about rights, they should consider what level of government they are talking about.
The Liberals have won when we automatically default to the Federal Government.
That is exactly what is killing America -- Liberalism's expansion of the power of the Federal
Government at the expense of individual rights and state sovereignty.

The demise of States' Rights is being pushed along nearly as much by Conservatives as by Liberals. 

[ChristianMIller]

Before people talk about rights, they should consider what level of government they are talking about.
The Liberals have won when we automatically default to the Federal Government.
That is exactly what is killing America -- Liberalism's expansion of the power of the Federal
Government at the expense of individual rights and state sovereignty.

The demise of States' Rights is being pushed along nearly as much by Conservatives as by Liberals. 

You are exactly right. Congressmen claiming to be Conservatives pushed the Defense of Marriage Act, the Healthy Marriage Initiative and pushed for the large subsidies that the Federal Government pays to people with state issued marriage licenses. The true Conservative, less government approach is to get the Federal Government completely out of the marriage and civil union business. So far no one has explained why these Federal marriage subsides are necessary or even helpful.

[gurn]

The OP has exactly one post. I suspect he is yet another Gay Lunatic Liberal infiltrator
who has creeped in the Harmony Central P*** Parade.

And I suspect this thread will go on fifty pages, minimum.

Next come the threads where gays bay at the moon about Christianity.
And y'all can put that in your China Construction Bank Account.


Next to blacks, these people are the Imam Barack Obamao's most loyal supporters.

I can't wait for 2012.

[MP_Sarge]

How funny then, that I didn't vote for Obama.

[Ree]

How funny then, that I didn't vote for Obama.

Why is   that   funny?

[MP_Sarge]

Just the idea that if you're not heterosexual you should vote for Obama [or any Democrat, for that matter].

I'm queer, not stupid.

[Ree]

Just the idea that if you're not heterosexual you should vote for Obama [or any Democrat, for that matter].

I'm queer, not stupid.

I  didn't  know that...

[vesta111]

Just the idea that if you're not heterosexual you should vote for Obama [or any Democrat, for that matter].

I'm queer, not stupid.

MP-Sarge, I personally want to thank you for enlightening me on a subject I was never taught in medical school.

So much  miss information out there in the medical community and what are the every day people to think when they just get word of mouth on the subject.???

First off I was taught that all baby's are conceived as females and it is the hormones or DNA that causes a baby to become male---- others are developed as a female, the fathers sperm decides the sex of the baby. 

 This becomes complicated when something in the DNA of both parents goes wrong.  Who is to say this may be in fact a birth accident or some form of DNA confusion at conception.???   We call a family trait when children inherit diseases of their family's and even a family birth mark, club foot or hemophilia in male children.

There are many story's on the web of children being born --intersex and the parents have to decide on the sex of the child in order to fill out a birth certificate.   The doctors bow to the wishes of the parents and operate on the child to remove the offending sex parts and the child is raised in the sex their parents want.   How sad that the child was not allowed to grow for a few years and then to make the decision the child's when they become young adults.??

I personally have never known a Gay male or female that was not Gay because of Social issues or trauma. Males that were so abused by woman they can never get close or trust one again.  Woman abused or bullied by parents or siblings with brothers or some male that caused them to fear men.

For the change overs the Gays that married and have children and  they found later in life that they were not happy in their sex  life for what ever reason, it boggles the mind.

Again I say thank you MP---You are shining a light into some very mysterious places that we  need to understand and not flat out condemn others.

[Thor]

From the Rabbi Brother in Law:

What we have here is some questionable interpretation of Scripture. The Scripture they quote is accurate in that man(Adam) was created first and that woman (Eve) was formed from him. Woman was formed from Adam's rib, the essence of what was man and woman, not the actual sexes were both already in Adam as a complete person. When man and woman joined and called of God into marriage that essence of a complete being is rejoined. Scripture cannot be referring to Adam actually containing both male and female genitalia or woman would not needed to have been created for reproduction. (Which is the purpose of marriage- no childrren exist before the union of Adam and Eve.) They use the Talmud to make their point, but it needs to be understood that the Talmud was not policed on what was included, both pro and cons on any issue are included and many with no Scriptural backing whatsoever. I checked out the second site and could not find what you were referring to. But one of the things that Judaism loves to do is rationalize everything through mysticism. This practice started in the middle ages with the Zohar and influences much of mainstream Judaism today. The Judaism of today resembles more of the corrupt mystical Judaism of the middle ages that it does of the time of the Second Temple and can hardly be used to understand the Judaism of the Second Temple when Jesus lived. Any attempt to do so is either irresponsible or ignorant. To truly understand the Judaism of Jesus day and thereby more clearly understand Christianity in a clearer sense, you have to study out the Judaism of the Second Temple when Jesus lived. This takes more studying than just going to a website, which most people try to do.

As far as the six sexes, one of the observations that I have discovered with modern Judaism, is its liberal tendencies. In reality, to get this doctrine is done so by a famous liberal stunt. That is, introduce a word into a theory by supposition (Hermaphrodtie) and try get it accepted as fact, with little or no proof that the word is applicable to the situation. Once that word gets by with no question, the false doctrines are easily introduced.

There ya have it. Similar to many of the Christian faiths. Things are taken out of context and manipulated for one's own self-satisfaction or to justify their immorality.

[SSG Snuggle Bunny]

From the Rabbi Brother in Law:

As far as the six sexes, one of the observations that I have discovered with modern Judaism, is its liberal tendencies. In reality, to get this doctrine is done so by a famous liberal stunt. That is, introduce a word into a theory by supposition (Hermaphrodtie) and try get it accepted as fact, with little or no proof that the word is applicable to the situation. Once that word gets by with no question, the false doctrines are easily introduced.

A text without a context is the pretext for a proof-text.

[MP_Sarge]

From the Rabbi Brother in Law:

There ya have it. Similar to many of the Christian faiths. Things are taken out of context and manipulated for one's own self-satisfaction or to justify their immorality.

Interesting.  He can just reject the Talmud out of hand when it suits him.
Why is his opinion more valid than the hundreds of thousands of Rabbis who have agreed with the opinion held in the Talmud for centuries?
By that virtue, he can also say that it is perfectly Kosher to eat cheeseburgers, which would fly in the face of every single Jew alive.

Because it isn't the Torah that forbids it, it's an "opinion" in the Talmud.

Sorry, but Rabbi or not, he's spitting in the face of Jewish belief and opinion. What sect of Judaism does he belong to that no longer considers the traditional Jewish interpretation of the Genesis story valid?

By removing the belief that Adam and Eve were once one, he is also removing the Jewish argument for the sanctity and holiness of heterosexual marriage.

The six sexes are not "modern" Judaism.
The sex of "tumtum" appears 900 times in the Talmud alone.  The Talmud is hardly modern.  That statement alone is pretty good illustration of how actively your BIL is misrepresenting things.


__________________________


Now, as far as judging immorality...
What is immoral about someone being born with an intersex disorder?

You never answered my questions- Do you believe that people are born with intersex disorders?
If G-d creates intersex children, who are YOU to question His creation?
If G-d allows innocent children to be born with intersex disorders, how can you be certain that it is completely impossible for someone to be born with a male brain and a female body?