Mad Hound asks for evidence

[Freeper]

MadHound  Donating Member  (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author  Click to view this author's profile  Click to add this author to your buddy list  Click to add this author to your Ignore list      Wed Jan-12-11 09:22 AM
Original message
Where is the evidence?
   
Almost before the echoes of the gunshots dimmed, the conventional DU wisdom jumped to the conclusion the the shooter, Loughner, was influenced by the RW noise machine.

Why did people jump to this conclusion? Because the main target of his shooting spree was a Democratic Congresswoman? Well, the shooter of a Democratic president was an avowed Communist, so the target proves nothing.

Because Loughner lists Mein Kampf and We the Living as two of his most favorite books? He also lists the Communist Manifest and Brave New World as two of his other favorite books.

Because he wrote anti-government screeds? Being anti-government is not limited to the right, the left has, and does, embrace anti-government rhetoric and views.

The simple fact of the matter is that we simply don't know what Loughner's personal politics are. More importantly, we don't have a clue as to whether those politics, whatever they are, pushed Loughner towards violence.

What we do know is that Loughner was a deeply disturbed individual, one with a history of mental illness problems. Ascribing motivations to Loughner's actions is, at this point in time, an exercise in both futility and stupidity. In the haste to demonize the right, to play gotcha games, we are far too willing to forego the basic facts and wildly speculate without evidence.

Or we could continue to act like those we hate, the rabid RW, who also jump to conclusions that simply aren't there, to wildly speculate with little or no evidence, all to score some mythical, mystical political point.

The choice is up to you.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x181096

Other than your shots at the right wing you pretty much nailed it. This will make you tons of friends at DU for sure.

el_bryanto  Donating Member  (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author  Click to view this author's profile  Click to add this author to your buddy list  Click to add this author to your Ignore list      Wed Jan-12-11 09:27 AM
Response to Original message
1. OK I am in favor of looking at how we behave in response to this
   
That said, of course we think that some day Conservatives are going to do things like this. We have a couple of decades of Limbuagh describing Liberals as hateful enemies of America. We have Beck spinning out paranoid fantasies where we basically run everything and are heading America towards a course of Apocolyptic destruction. Limbaugh Conservatives see as evil traitors out to destroy America.

They belive that we are evil and they may not believe in their own ability to deal with us peacefully (either because of Becks frameworks or because they simply think that Government just doens't work). So while I do agree that self-examination is very useful after a tragedy like this, I know that the next time a Democratic politician is shot I will react in exactly the same way, i.e. I'll assume it's a crazed Limbaugh conservative.

Bryant

Sounds like profiling to me.

seabeyond  Donating Member  (1000+ posts)  Journal  Click to send private message to this author  Click to view this author's profile  Click to add this author to your buddy list  Click to add this author to your Ignore list      Wed Jan-12-11 09:29 AM
Response to Original message
3. damn i am so tired of this self righteous bullshit that feeds and enables the rw to continue on
   
you may like to precieve that there is absolutely no dots to connect in your opinion. but you are wrong. there. that simple

MadHound  Donating Member  (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author  Click to view this author's profile  Click to add this author to your buddy list  Click to add this author to your Ignore list      Wed Jan-12-11 09:32 AM
Response to Reply #3
8. What's your evidence? n/t

Valid question just saying I'm right so there hardly qualifies as evidence.

seabeyond  Donating Member  (1000+ posts)  Journal  Click to send private message to this author  Click to view this author's profile  Click to add this author to your buddy list  Click to add this author to your Ignore list      Wed Jan-12-11 09:35 AM
Response to Reply #8
13. it really doesnt matter at all. not a single bet. you will ignore regardless. you dont see it.
   
Edited on Wed Jan-12-11 09:36 AM by seabeyond
i do. we differ in opinion here what the nation needs, needs to learn, needs to pull from this experience. we differ in what we need to speak out about. it is really a waste of time to even kinda try to answer your question, it will be dismissed with no respect at all

but i am so sick and tired of people on du regress to the point of dismissing, demeaning, devalueing people because of differing opinion.

you say.... if i dont see as you, THAT makes me = to a rw.

wth is you making a comment like that doing? making you exactly what rw are.

is it really necessary for you to make your point by degrading people you dont agree with?

Who did he degrade on the left anyway?
Asking for proof is smart not, degrading.

MadHound  Donating Member  (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author  Click to view this author's profile  Click to add this author to your buddy list  Click to add this author to your Ignore list      Wed Jan-12-11 09:39 AM
Response to Reply #13
19. I'm not demonzing you as a RWer, there is no need to demonize me as a RWer,
   
I'm simply asking a question, where is your evidence? Show me any sort of definitive proof that Loughner was motivated by RW politics, that's all I'm asking for. Can you do that, or will you continue your ad hominem attacks in lieu of real evidence?

seabeyond  Donating Member  (1000+ posts)  Journal  Click to send private message to this author  Click to view this author's profile  Click to add this author to your buddy list  Click to add this author to your Ignore list      Wed Jan-12-11 09:43 AM
Response to Reply #19
23. agree with me or continue to act like those we hate RABID rw. tell me, this woman no better than a
   
Edited on Wed Jan-12-11 09:49 AM by seabeyond
RABIB rwer. read her letter and tell me that you pull from her letter the same garbage that you hear from the RABID rwer.

seabeyond  Donating Member  (1000+ posts)  Journal  Click to send private message to this author  Click to view this author's profile  Click to add this author to your buddy list  Click to add this author to your Ignore list      Wed Jan-12-11 09:43 AM
Response to Reply #19
23. agree with me or continue to act like those we hate RABID rw. tell me, this woman no better than a
   
Edited on Wed Jan-12-11 09:49 AM by seabeyond
RABIB rwer. read her letter and tell me that you pull from her letter the same garbage that you hear from the RABID rwer.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=439&topic_id=176458&mesg_id=176458

you are not simply asking a question. you post that if you dont agree with you.... you are as bad as a rabid rwer.


you are not simply asking a question. you post that if you dont agree with you.... you are as bad as a rabid rwer.

So the RW is rabid if we question your statements with no evidence provided by you. Odd definition of rabid.

The link he posted as "evidence" was a letter from Gifford's cousin to Sarah Palin. I am guessing because the cousin holds that silly graphic as the reason why he did this, is proof.

MadHound  Donating Member  (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author  Click to view this author's profile  Click to add this author to your buddy list  Click to add this author to your Ignore list      Wed Jan-12-11 09:49 AM
Response to Reply #23
31. You certainly like to put words in my mouth,
   
Edited on Wed Jan-12-11 09:49 AM by MadHound
And after your last post above, where you are accusing me of being a RWer, it is obviously projection on your part to state that I'm accusing you of being a RWer if you don't agree with me.

All I'm asking for is evidence, where is the evidence. All you're giving me is personal attacks. That says volumes about the evidence you (don't) have, and also a lot about your ability to carry on a rational discussion.

seabeyond  Donating Member  (1000+ posts)  Journal  Click to send private message to this author  Click to view this author's profile  Click to add this author to your buddy list  Click to add this author to your Ignore list      Wed Jan-12-11 09:52 AM
Response to Reply #31
34. i am not putting words in your mouth. i am using YOUR words.
   
Edited on Wed Jan-12-11 09:53 AM by seabeyond
YOUR words compare anyone that does not think like you to RABID rwer. there is no question. now, if you want to clarify that comment, fine. but those are YOUR words.

personal attack? you personally attacked every person that does not agree with you. me challenging you on that attack doesnt get to be switched to personal attacks. if it wasnt in your post, i would not have even posted on this thread.

there is evidence from all the garbaged spewed from right.
there is evidence from all the attacks from rw that came from the garbage
there is evidence from every position this shooter held.

you see nothing?

why should i bother.

Well Seabeyond, DU is world famous for calling anyone who disagrees a rabid RW even if they are as liberal as you are but, just disagree on one thing.

MadHound  Donating Member  (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author  Click to view this author's profile  Click to add this author to your buddy list  Click to add this author to your Ignore list      Wed Jan-12-11 09:57 AM
Response to Reply #34
37. So that's the burr in your saddle, eh?
   
You don't like the fact that I called out those who are jumping to conclusions with no evidence as being similar to rabid RWer's in their actions. Well, I didn't include you personally in that comparison, you are including yourself. Thus obviously you must think that you're jumping to conclusions with no evidence.

All I've asked from you personally is evidence. Looking at what Loughner talked about, waking dreams and deeper understandings, I would like to know where you get some sort of coherent RW philosophy of his. Not what other people are saying about it, but what Loughner himself is saying that is rabidly RW. Can you provide that evidence, or simply more personal attacks in lieu of evidence?

What I love is he claims it's us on the right who jump to conclusions etc yet since 5 seconds after DUmmyland heard the news about Congresswoman Giffords they jumped on the blame the tea party wagon. The only information in the story, was she had been shot and so had some other people. For all you knew or even know now to be frank, is some nut shot her. The only evidence out there points to him not fitting in any political ideology exactly. Not one thing has shown that he even knows who Palin is much less read her website. Believe it or not lots of people don't know who Palin is.

el_bryanto  Donating Member  (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author  Click to view this author's profile  Click to add this author to your buddy list  Click to add this author to your Ignore list      Wed Jan-12-11 10:17 AM
Response to Reply #37
54. Evidence point number one - Giffords was a Democrat
   
Evidence point number two - Conservative have spent decades demonizing Democrats, describing us as hateful monsters who hate America.

Bryant

Ok let's play that game.

The left killed Ronald Reagan.
1 Reagan was a Republican
2 Liberals have spent decades demonizing republicans as hateful monsters who hate America.

Now if I really was using that "logic" everyone would say I am nuts.

MadHound  Donating Member  (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author  Click to view this author's profile  Click to add this author to your buddy list  Click to add this author to your Ignore list      Wed Jan-12-11 10:22 AM
Response to Reply #54
60. Giffords was also white and female,
   
Perhaps he disliked whites or females The point is, we really don't know, and to be continually speculating about motivations, when those speculations aren't based in fact is an exercise in futility.

Or perhaps his dog told him to kill people the simple fact is we don't know.

seabeyond  Donating Member  (1000+ posts)  Journal  Click to send private message to this author  Click to view this author's profile  Click to add this author to your buddy list  Click to add this author to your Ignore list      Wed Jan-12-11 10:24 AM
Response to Reply #60
64. this has just gotten obnoxiously disgusting. nt

Translation I am losing so peace out.

el_bryanto  Donating Member  (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author  Click to view this author's profile  Click to add this author to your buddy list  Click to add this author to your Ignore list      Wed Jan-12-11 10:33 AM
Original message
Obvioulsy nobody is speculating now - we know enough to know that he was crazy
   
What you are talking about is the initial response, and I am saying that you can lecture us all you want; my gut feeling is that someday after declaring us enemies and traitors for decades, someone will act on those thoughts.

Bryant

And someone may act on your thoughts about us being enemies and traitors.
Both sides view the other side as the enemy and a traitor.

MadHound  Donating Member  (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author  Click to view this author's profile  Click to add this author to your buddy list  Click to add this author to your Ignore list      Wed Jan-12-11 10:35 AM
Response to Original message
75. Somebody already has,
   
The assassin of Dr. Tiller, the man who shot up the Unitarian church.

But as you say, the only concrete evidence we have as far as motivation goes is the fact that this young man was mentally ill. Why can't we deal with that rather than making it some sort of political contest?

For the RW being so rabid why is there only a few examples of violence?
If we were so hell bent on killing I would think bodies would litter the streets.

seabeyond  Donating Member  (1000+ posts)  Journal  Click to send private message to this author  Click to view this author's profile  Click to add this author to your buddy list  Click to add this author to your Ignore list      Wed Jan-12-11 10:18 AM
Response to Reply #37
55. since i said it in every post, i would think that would be obvious it was the "burr in my saddle".
   
Edited on Wed Jan-12-11 10:18 AM by seabeyond
and again..... in owning your position, you once again go to degrading.

why do i not bother listing the evidence? you have ignored all i am saying to promote the agenda of your op. you dont address what i say. you look at a way to insult me when i address anything.

you arent interested in evidence. you are interested and consistent in putting down people that dont agree with you. it would do. no. good. to say a word about it.

MadHound  Donating Member  (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author  Click to view this author's profile  Click to add this author to your buddy list  Click to add this author to your Ignore list      Wed Jan-12-11 10:24 AM
Response to Reply #55
65. The agenda of my OP is simple,
   
Fact based, evidence based, reality based thinking.

Apparently you don't want to go there, and somehow the fact that I'm asking for actual evidence disturbs you to the point where you have to insult me.

It is obvious that you have no evidence, just insults, so perhaps it is simply best to discontinue this discussion with you since you seemingly don't want to listen, just insult.

Goodbye :hi:

seabeyond  Donating Member  (1000+ posts)  Journal  Click to send private message to this author  Click to view this author's profile  Click to add this author to your buddy list  Click to add this author to your Ignore list      Wed Jan-12-11 10:25 AM
Response to Reply #65
66. it is simple. snarky, obnoxious, insultive.... nt
   
   Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts)  Journal Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list    Wed Jan-12-11 09:54 AM
Response to Reply #31
35. did you read that womans letter? is she as bad as the RABID rw we hate? nt
   
   Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
MadHound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list    Wed Jan-12-11 10:00 AM
Response to Reply #35
39. Yes, and she is providing no evidence of a connection between Loughner and the right
   
Nor is she proving that RW views made up Loughner's worldview.

So the letter, while being an excellent call to tone down the rhetoric, does nothing to prove that the RW rhetoric in this country actually effected Loughner's worldview or actions.
   Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts)  Journal Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list    Wed Jan-12-11 10:20 AM
Response to Reply #39
58. you dont get it. in order to preserve your position, you really are clueless and refused to
   
acknowledge what people are saying.

done

i have made mypoints i wanted to with your op. but further conversation is a waste of time
   Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
MadHound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list    Wed Jan-12-11 10:26 AM
Response to Reply #58
68. And what fact based, evidence based points have you made?
   
Oh, yeah, none.

Bye :hi:
   Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts)  Journal Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list    Wed Jan-12-11 10:29 AM
Response to Reply #68
69. you have read it over and over and yet, you ask in all wonder, what evidence. obviously you ignore
   
what people are saying. what does it matter. why play a game. what does it do for you to do this.....
   Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
MadHound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list    Wed Jan-12-11 10:33 AM
Response to Reply #69
73. Yes, I have read your replies, your insults, your links. I still see no concrete evidence
   
That Loughner was motivated by any sort of politics.

But it is grossly obvious that Loughner was acting out of deep seated mental illness.

You have provided nothing but bluster and blather. Thanks for playing, try again.
   

I am sure later on all that I reposted will appear as deleted subthread but, it can live on here.

[Carl]

Being obtuse when challenged on your leftist assertions must be a course of study somewhere.
They learn it at an early age.

[Ballygrl]

They always bring up Tiller, so I guess I have to post this again for the lurkers:

•It was not the fear of conservative violence that caused Ann Coulter's speech to be cancelled this week.
 
•It was a liberal who bit the finger off a man who disagreed with him on healthcare.
 
•It was Obama-loving Amy Bishop who took a gun to work and murdered co-workers.
 
•Joseph Stack flew his plane into the IRS building after writing an anti-conservative manifesto.
 
•It was liberals who destroyed AM radio towers outside of Seattle.
 
•It's liberals who burn down Hummer dealerships.
 
•It was progressive SEIU union thugs who beat a blaack conservative man who spoke his mind.
 
•It's doubtful that a conservative fired shotss into a GOP campaign headquarters.
 
•In fact, Democrats have no monopoly on having their offices vandalized.
 
•Don't forget it was Obama's friend Bill Ayers who used terrorism as a tool for political change. SDS is still radical, with arrests in 2007 and the storming of the CATO Institute in July 2008.
 
•It was a liberal who was sentenced to two years for bringing bombs and riot shields to the Republican National Convention in 2008.
 
•It was a liberal who threatened to kill a government informant who infiltrated her Austin-based group that planned to bomb the RNC.
 
•It was liberals who assaulted police in Berkeley.
 
•It was liberals who intimidated and threw rocks through the windows of researchers.
 
•The two Black Panthers who stood outside polls intimidating people with nightsticks were probably not right-wingers.
 
•Every time the G20 gets together, it's not conservatives who destroy property and cause chaos.

[SSG Snuggle Bunny]

el_bryanto  Donating Member  (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author  Click to view this author's profile  Click to add this author to your buddy list  Click to add this author to your Ignore list      Wed Jan-12-11 10:33 AM
Original message
Obvioulsy nobody is speculating now - we know enough to know that he was crazy
  
What you are talking about is the initial response, and I am saying that you can lecture us all you want; my gut feeling is that someday after declaring us enemies and traitors for decades, someone will act on those thoughts.

Bryant

LIBERALS SAY:

America is an evil, imperialist nation that has committed on-going genocide against non-whites over such things as land and oil. Most recently this imperialist streak manifested itself when the Bush administration stole multiple elections and had its scheme reinforced by the Supreme Court.

It then affected the unlawful invasion of Iraq wherein the US government either perpetrated or deliberately ignored the events of 9/11/01 to seize upon the emotional capital of the deaths of 3,000 citizens to invade Iraq under false pretenses of on-going WMD research and support for international terrorism. Over 1 million Iraqis have been killed as part of the genocidal campaign to seize their natural resources.

Since that time the government has seized ever increasing swathes of power to monitor citizens for dissent and illegally detain innocent persons where such persons have been repeatedly subjected to the most heinous tortures.

CONSERVATIVES SAY:

The bums are bankrupting us and we need to go after specific officials on both sides during the primaries to get them out of office and send a message to the rest.


LOUGHNER SAYS:

The government is using arbitrary rules of grammar to control our minds.

[txradioguy]

Being obtuse when challenged on your leftist assertions must be a course of study somewhere.
They learn it at an early age.

I think it's taught in Law School too.

[DumbAss Tanker]

Man, seabeyond's crap is damned hard to follow.  I'm thinking "One-finger typist."

 

[delilahmused]

So basically seabeyond is saying it's rw'ers fault because everyone on the left says it is. And we're supposed to be the sheep. What an idiot. Still not one shred of proof, just what it wants to believe.

Cindie

[zeitgeist]

Man, seabeyond's crap is damned hard to follow.  I'm thinking "One-finger typist."

Not only a queer typist (one-fingered aka huntin pecker) but also an eecummings fan who dislikes capitalization in all its forms.  Leftists suffer from wannabe disease, they all wannabe a poet or philosopher or other person who just sits around thinking and pontificating about things receiving laurels, and of course, chasing at rainbows.

[DumbAss Tanker]

ee cummings did it for stylistic reasons (Stupid ones, true), not because he was too uncoordinated to hold down the shift key and hit a letter with his other index finger.

 

[F_Rat-46]

Being obtuse when challenged on your leftist assertions must be a course of study somewhere.
They learn it at an early age.

It's actually mixed in with the baby formula.  

[Reality vs DU]

So basically seabeyond is saying it's rw'ers fault because everyone on the left says it is. And we're supposed to be the sheep. What an idiot. Still not one shred of proof, just what it wants to believe.

Cindie

Exactly.  seabeyond's "evidence" is that people on the left are saying things.  That's all you need, end of discussion.

Is seabeyond jealous of the success of proudtobedumbkansan and making an early run at DUmmy of the year?

[Karin]

I think this exchange was very illustrious of what we're dealing with here in DUmmyland and Kostown.  People are looking at the left's idiocy with this and rejecting it as utter lunacy. 

Seabeyond seems unhinged and drunk as well.  What a maddening person to try and have a conversation with.  This is why I am not following the discussion -if you can call it that- with Laelth on the other thread.

[AllosaursRus]

Not only a queer typist (one-fingered aka huntin pecker) but also an eecummings fan who dislikes capitalization in all its forms.  Leftists suffer from wannabe disease, they all wannabe a poet or philosopher or other person who just sits around thinking and pontificating about things receiving laurels, and of course, chasing at rainbows.

Uh, don't forget the money! They want to be paid for sittin' on their ass waxing poetic! Y a can't forget their wages in order to pay for the mind altering drugs needed for their profession!

Not only paid, they want cradle to grave healthcare like a Saudi Prince takin' over a whole floor of the Mayo clinic!

All on the taxpayer's dime, since what they do is so more important than us feedin' America on a buck a head!

[Karin]

This guy had the next to the last post:

Common Sense Party (1000+ posts)      Wed Jan-12-11 01:39 PM
Response to Original message
126. Evidence? We don't need no stinkin' evidence!!!
 Personally, I think it was 'Aesop's Fables' that pushed him over the edge.

The bottom line is, good people here WANT him to be a TeaBagger, because we HATE teabaggers.

We WANT him to act on marching orders from Palin because we HATE Palin.

We're willing, then, to accept any scrap of innuendo that suggests--in the most tenuous or preposterous way--that Loughner is a rightwinger.

And we reject out of hand ANYTHING that doesn't fit into our pre-conceived "the right wing made him do it" narrative.

We're looking foolish, but that's the nature of DU.

Of course, that's just a fart in a windstorm. 

[Airwolf]

Not only a queer typist (one-fingered aka huntin pecker) but also an eecummings fan who dislikes capitalization in all its forms.  Leftists suffer from wannabe disease, they all wannabe a poet or philosopher or other person who just sits around thinking and pontificating about things receiving laurels, and of course, chasing at rainbows.

Well it is hard to type with both fingers in your ears while going  LALALALALALA I can't hear you type.

[true_blood]

Well it is hard to type with both fingers in your ears while going  LALALALALALA I can't hear you type.

Or in the DUmmie's situation, holding a bone or grabbing for some cheetos.

[AllosaursRus]

Or in the DUmmie's situation, holding a bone or grabbing for some cheetos.

In the case of DUmmies, it's more like grabbin' their ankles!