primitive alleges the CalPig primitive has no sense of composition

[franksolich]

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=216x6224

Oh my.

We all know who the writer is, the primitives are discussing.

Orrex  (1000+ posts)        Fri Jun-25-10 12:58 AM
Original message
 
My ongoing complaint about the writing that I see in online workshops
 
I know that an online forum isn't exactly the place to rub elbows with James Joyce and Octavia Butler, but I don't have access to a local writers' group, so I'm forced to work with what I can get.

However...

Almost without exception, none of the participants in these groups has any concept of composition. To them, it's sufficient to throw the words on the page, and if they vaguely describe something like what the writer was thinking about, so much the better. They have no sense of how to structure a moment, a paragraph, a scene, or anything to enhance to the conveying of an idea. They are endlessly hobbled by terrible word choices, flat sentence structure, and a near-total lack of consciousness about what they're actually writing.

The other complaint is that most of them have no idea of how to write dialogue. To them, it's either a string of hamfisted one-liners or a means of giving the reader great swaths of expository back-story.

Anyone else run into anything like this?

jotsy  (1000+ posts)        Fri Jun-25-10 11:00 AM
Response to Original message
 
1. Don't know that I'm the huckleberry you want to hear from... 

Critters is the only one I'm familiar with outside of facebook groups, and it didn't feel fair of me to hand out assessments when I wasn't throwing my own work out for the same kind of scrutiny. As for the others I mentioned, well, they didn't pan out for me, the only busy site was a place where interaction became political and popularity driven. Most, just not reliably active.

Five or six years ago, I paid $70 for a 'community' writing class and half the session was taken up watching parceled out video of 'Dances With Wolves'. The instructor claimed that all stories follow some kind of a 12 step formula and used the movie as her example. I tired of this approach about half way through, just stopped going and was never satisfied with how I'd spent my money.

Given the long span of history of written words, and the generation or the marketability of them, writers are always looking to push the proverbial envelope. I think the term experimental and the wide range of perception such an expression inspires may contribute to a loss of form, in the traditional sense anyway.

Are there bookstore with chat space within reach? A community college with an activities lounge? Maybe there are opportunities to be created for a face to face environment and that way there's no sifting through a huge pile of writers and only a fraction you have any faith in.

Disclaimer: Your list of grievances there are chocked full of my worst habits and I may be exactly the kind of wannabe that you're looking to avoid. I respond because there's nowhere near the action in this forum there should be with so many good writers floating about.

SheilaT  (1000+ posts)      Sat Jun-26-10 06:18 PM
Response to Original message
 
2. You really need to do everything possible to get a real, live, in-person writing group started. Unless you live more than fifty miles from the nearest settlement of any kind, you should be able to get something going.

Try local junior colleges, put some kind of an ad in a local newspaper. You may need to be ruthless in limiting the group to those who are actually serious about being published, and not just engaging in some form of mental masturbation.

I got my start, so to speak (and I'm not exactly a famous, published writer) when I took a creative writing course at the University in the town I lived in. About five of us put together our own writers' group after it was over, and that was quite invaluable in honing my skills.

I've never participated in an on-line group like that, but I can easily see that it might attract people who have no honest idea of what goes into decent writing. Good luck. Let us know if you have eventual success.

MorningGlow  (1000+ posts)      Sun Jun-27-10 12:18 PM
Response to Original message
 
3. You mean...bad writers?

Yeah. There are lots of those. The clues I usually go by is if someone writes that something is cooked "to perfection" or a woman eats a pint of Ben & Jerry's after a breakup. Then I know they're hopeless.

Still, you COULD have fun with these types of online group--hone your writing skills by composing scathing online criticisms of their crap.

Seriously, I second the idea of checking out local colleges--at least at places of higher learning there's a semblance of some sort of attempt to write better than what my writing professors always called "splat" (throw it on the page and call it art). Good luck, man.

Orrex  (1000+ posts)        Mon Jun-28-10 08:14 PM
Response to Reply #3

4. Yes, they're bad writers, but they're somehow even worse than that; they're aggressively proud of exactly what makes their writing so bad in the first place!

I can honestly say that they respond to criticism pretty well, at least they know enough not to take it personally. But when they subsequently submit a revised draft for further critique, they've usually ignored everything I had to say about the first one.

It isn't as though I'm taking abstract, purely subjective pot-shots, either! It's stuff like "don't use the word 'angry' four times in three sentences" or "how can he race out of the room when you've already established that the door is locked?"

Stuff like this really demonstrates that they're not paying attention to their own writing, so why in the world would anyone else want to?

The timeless truth from the late Tangerine LaBamba:

But, has anyone here ever read California Peggy's poetry?

Just on the basis of that, she deserves the top prize.  I'm pretty sure it was directly responsible for a number of the fires and landslides that took place in California, probably gave Charlie Manson one of his migraines, and even made Arnold Schwarzenegger think that maybe he was living in the wrong state.

Don't get me wrong - her poetry isn't bad.  It's awful.  It's the kind of thing that would blind God if He had to read it.  It's a collection of words that should be machine-gunned down, one by one, preferably out in the desert, with no witnesses, and a nice young girl who could be counted on to claim that she'd been shooting jackrabbits.  It's so bad, mirrors crack if anyone looking into a mirror while thinking of one of CP's poems runs the risk of permanent scarring, even blindness, while thinking of it as he peers into the mirror.

I don't want to say that it's the worst thing I've ever read, because I also once had to read a chapter of a book written by my dermatologist's brother-in-law (this happens when you have your first book published, and everyone suddenly has a manuscript they absolutely NEED you to read - it's a sure-fire best seller) in which every woman - and there was a new woman on every page - had the most amazing orgasm as soon as the man entered her.  Every time.  One stroke.

CP's poetry isn't that bad because I don't have to go to her and tell her that there are parts of it that need some work.

Her poetry needs immolation.  She needs to have all writing impletments and keyboards, paper, blank walls, toilet paper, paper towels, margins in newspapers, and even the blank part of framed works of art removed from her home until this idea that she's writing "poetry" passes.  Maybe medication will help.

[JohnnyReb]

 :rotf:There's room in the writers guild for me after all.

"It was a dark and stormy night as the light footed queers, adornded in they frilly best, glared longingly into each others eyes. The enormous tatooed butch lesibians, their chained wallets hanging loosely at there side, were envivious of Bonnie Fwanks lust and passion for the perverted. Dollar bills, saved from Bonnie's many countless senior discounted ferry trips, filled the air as the two queers tore at each others clothes."

How am I doing so far? Gonna be a liberal DUmmie hit ain't it?

[Tucker]

CPeg would have to be told by name that her writings suck. No innuendo or insinuations will work. You need to be direct. Several months back it was inferred that her poetry didn't cut it. She threatened to leave the island forever. They begged and pleaded for her to stay. Truth be told, she wasn't leaving. She has nowhere else to go.

[miskie]

I'm starting to think she may have gotten the hint --

Not a single new poem from her since I posted the Big Book of Poetry.

Maybe her inspiration, much like her skin*, has dried up.  Well, It doesn't matter - I will still continue to write CP styled verse into the Big Book, with or without her source material.



(*no, I didn't 'go there' -- but I was sorely tempted to...  )

[PatriotGame]

Paging Dr. Seuss, paging Dr. Seuss - please pick up the RED phone...

(what a load of OP horse manure)

[BattleHymn]

:rotf:There's room in the writers guild for me after all.

"It was a dark and stormy night as the light footed queers, adornded in they frilly best, glared longingly into each others eyes. The enormous tatooed butch lesibians, their chained wallets hanging loosely at there side, were envivious of Bonnie Fwanks lust and passion for the perverted. Dollar bills, saved from Bonnie's many countless senior discounted ferry trips, filled the air as the two queers tore at each others clothes."

How am I doing so far? Gonna be a liberal DUmmie hit ain't it?

I like it.  You could probably title is something like:


"Barney Frank: He Has the Working Man's Back"

or

"Barney Frank: Congressional Seat, or Your Seat"

or

"Barney's Big Book on Fudge and Fruit"   

[miskie]

Paging Dr. Seuss, paging Dr. Seuss - please pick up the RED phone...

(what a load of OP horse manure)

On a sea of blue, an island floats -
The bolly balls cheep cheep and the coconuts grow
and from behind a tree, what do I see ?
a primitive, then another, and then three !

then four five and six, they joined in the mix
and seven and eight - isn't that great ?
eight primitives - all dressed in blue !
wiggling, waggling, as the bonfire grew

they told stories of conquests
they sung songs of power
they danced and they wiggle waggled
hour after hour

but the bolly bolls got tired
they all flew to their nests
and the coconuts were all juiced
squeezed and smashed, broken and mashed

the seas grew calm
the sun went away
and the primitives went to bed
but they will be back, some other day

so if you are out on a boat
on a sea of blue, where an island floats
with coconut trees, and bolly balls in the sky
don't be surprised, if a primitive, -or eight- come by.

[PatriotGame]

On a sea of blue, an island floats -
The bolly balls cheep cheep and the coconuts grow
and from behind a tree, what do I see ?
a primitive, then another, and then three !

then four five and six, they joined in the mix
and seven and eight - isn't that great ?
eight primitives - all dressed in blue !
wiggling, waggling, as the bonfire grew

they told stories of conquests
they sung songs of power
they danced and they wiggle waggled
hour after hour

but the bolly bolls got tired
they all flew to their nests
and the coconuts were all juiced
squeezed and smashed, broken and mashed

the seas grew calm
the sun went away
and the primitives went to bed
but they will be back, some other day

so if you are out on a boat
on a sea of blue, where an island floats
with coconut trees, and bolly balls in the sky
don't be surprised, if a primitive, -or eight- come by.

Damn that was just fracking good!
Can we someday hunt primitives?
Please?
I'll pay any amount for the tag...

[Tucker]

Damn miskie, that was good.

[miskie]

Damn that was just fracking good!
Can we someday hunt primitives?
Please?
I'll pay any amount for the tag...

Damn miskie, that was good.

Thanks - no big deal, really. Between three kids, and my own childhood, I have read far too much Dr. Seuss.   

[Revolution]

It's the kind of thing that would blind God if He had to read it.

On a sea of blue, an island floats -
The bolly balls cheep cheep and the coconuts grow
and from behind a tree, what do I see ?
a primitive, then another, and then three !

then four five and six, they joined in the mix
and seven and eight - isn't that great ?
eight primitives - all dressed in blue !
wiggling, waggling, as the bonfire grew

they told stories of conquests
they sung songs of power
they danced and they wiggle waggled
hour after hour

but the bolly bolls got tired
they all flew to their nests
and the coconuts were all juiced
squeezed and smashed, broken and mashed

the seas grew calm
the sun went away
and the primitives went to bed
but they will be back, some other day

so if you are out on a boat
on a sea of blue, where an island floats
with coconut trees, and bolly balls in the sky
don't be surprised, if a primitive, -or eight- come by.

I approve of both quotes.