Are public workers paid too much?

[bkg]

I understand that they CHOOSE their career. I just think they should be paid more for the job they do.

While working, I could agree. Pension/retirement, I disagree. I'm pretty aligned with Jason Lewis on this one - pay someone while they work. Don't pay them while they don't work.

[The Village Idiot]

And while we at it....the biggest sector of government employees who don't make enough money ....is the military!!

Dang the government should announce a siezure of all bank accounts and 100% of private sector wealth immediately.

Of course, next year might be a problem.

BTW, what I said was, we have too MANY public employees. Many of them are unionized and refuse to fund their own retirements and medical insurance etc

[Ballygrl]

Teachers in NJ can make a bigger salary when they retire then when they're working, and the most annoying thing is this, when they retire? they move out of state because the cost of living and taxes are so high.

[soleil]

To be fair, they CHOSE those careers knowing full well what they may/may not get paid... Just like teachers, etc. But when you have a cop paying in $120K to their retirement, and pulling out almost $4M in pension and healthcare, something's admittedly way wrong.

I also know cops who are pulling down nearly 6-figures in MN...

Just remember that is not the standard. My brother has 3 jobs, and I have never heard him complain about it either. And his cop work (while knowing what it paid before hand) is crucial to our safety, just as the military is (where they also know what they are getting into). As are teachers for our country. While some teachers make a lot, most don't. We still need them, and we should still applaud good teachers for getting into a field that pays crap so that our children can be better. Instead of focusing on "they knew", we should be paying the hard necessary jobs more. Especially the ones where you risk your life for the sake of others or teach our future. I know some states do this already, but not all. Not all by a long shot.

[BlueStateSaint]

Look, gang, I'm a public worker in NYS.  The public employee unions have to give back on this next round of contracts.  Are there too many of us in NYS?  You betcha.  Right now, there's two different retirement incentives out there to get rid of older workers.  One of our offices (covers the west of NYS) is going to lose almost its' entire staff due to one of these.  Will the slots be filled?  Oh, I'm sure that the unions will clamor for that, but the current lame-duck governor won't do it (even as he continues to hire people, at over $100,000/yr, for his own staff), and we're pretty sure that his designated successor (Andy Cuomo) won't, either.  

There is way too much waste and abuse in NYS--and a lot of it, to be fair, comes from NYS' habit of having outside contractors do a lot of work that could be done by State employees.  But, a lot of it comes from, "It's not my job title, so you need to get someone else to do the job."  So, I see both sides of the argument in NYS.  The unions are too powerful, and the Dem-controlled State legislature is beholden to them.  The point of "I've had it!" is a lot farther down the road than in the country at large.  That is why you see stories on the Tea Party, in "newspapers" such as the New York Times, written with the slants that they are.  People in NYC are absolutely clueless as to what the rest of the country thinks.  (I'm also thinking that people in Albany are just as clueless as to what the rest of NYS thinks, too.)

[ROCKURWORLD]

I agree with you. Perhaps if there weren't so many employees in those jobs, you could get the same anwer from at least two people. 

LOL your so right. Especially a problem with the IRS. I have been hassling with them about a problem for over 4 mths. Every time I call I get a different answer about my problem.

[Karin]

Well, I guess we can see that the OP question is too simplistic.  A public employee should not have to be working 3 jobs just to make ends meet, such as in TN.  On the other hand, blue states are so out of control.  The double and triple dipping in pensions (retire at age 45, take another govt job, collect 2 pensions), is outrageous.  People are really starting to get resentful.

[Lord Undies]

Well, I guess we can see that the OP question is too simplistic.  A public employee should not have to be working 3 jobs just to make ends meet, such as in TN.  On the other hand, blue states are so out of control.  The double and triple dipping in pensions (retire at age 45, take another govt job, collect 2 pensions), is outrageous.  People are really starting to get resentful.

I don't understand this.  In Tennessee, a state trooper makes 35-40 thousand a year.  A teacher makes 40-50 thousand a year.  The benefits are great.  The cost of living in Tennessee is relatively low.  Why the need for a third, fourth, or fifth job?  Why can't these folks just live within their means?

[bkg]

Well, I guess we can see that the OP question is too simplistic.

No - It's not too simplistic at all.

  A public employee should not have to be working 3 jobs just to make ends meet, such as in TN. 

Public employees, on average, now make MORE than their average private sector counter parts. Don't use the one example to make it the norm. That's NOT the case. And please again, consider the benefits and job security.

On the other hand, blue states are so out of control.  The double and triple dipping in pensions (retire at age 45, take another govt job, collect 2 pensions), is outrageous.  People are really starting to get resentful.

Starting?

Again, I have to ask... how many average private sector employees does it take to pay the salary of one average gov't employee??????

[Wineslob]

how many average private sector employees does it take to pay the salary of one average gov't employee??????

And that is the Billion dollar question.
Too many forget it's OUR money.

[The Village Idiot]

Why can't these folks just live within their means?

Good question and maybe if they would have had some encouragment and examples of that while they were a bit younger it would have crossed their minds. /s

[delilahmused]

and an Amen to you too. The first thing to dump is the US Dept of Education, which educates noone. Let the states run their own schools before we move on to a system of private education.

Then we can start abolishing other parts of Fedzilla.

We've gotten too dependent on other people to educate our nation's children. The result is generations that don't know their own history and are propagandized instead of educated. I hear this complaint from parents all the time who send their children to liberal indoctrinations centers every single day of their lives. Just the other day I got a link from a facebook friend of a teacher who go flak because he had a bulletin board with the nation's motto, Declaration of Independence, etc. with the God references highlighted. Doesn't matter whether the individual believes but it does matter that the FOUNDERS did. Those divine rights are at the heart of our freedom and without something greater than government, government becomes a god and the people become it's slaves.

On FR the other day a woman was saying she no longer volunteered at her sons' GRADE school because she couldn't stand it (lack of discipline, disruptive, etc.) Yet, she was willing to send her children 6 hours a day, 5 days a week to a situation that was too chaotic for an adult. I asked her about that and she just said they were "thinking about" alternatives. Homeschooling was one of their options but was concerned because one son would love it and one would absolutely hate it (of course a grade school child has no idea whether they'd like it or not). I held my tongue but I wanted to say, "It doesn't matter what your children want, YOU'RE the parent and need to do what's best for them!"

It's a good thing most of these people didn't live during the founding or even the first 100 years or so. They would've had to homeschool. Things would definitely change if even a small percentage withdrew their kids from school. Monies schools receive are based on numbers. Granted, there's a lot to consider (loss of income, etc. though many homeschool moms have home-based businesses) but we're talking about the future of America here. Our children are precious gifts and once we have them parenting (which includes education) is our...and this is going to bug the crap out of some people...especially mothers most important responsibility. Okay, done with the soapbox rant.

Cindie

[bkg]

And that is the Billion dollar question.
Too many forget it's OUR money.

And no one will answer... no one likes to think about it that way. Which is why most public employees get PISSED when I tell them they don't contribute to the tax base... "But I pay taxes, dammit!" Don't care - you don't contribute to the tax base... you get paid from the tax base.

22 MILLION gov't workers... with pensions. On average getting paid (fully loaded) more than private sector now.

We know that ~52% pay taxes.
We know there are 22 M gov't employees.

So how many people are REALLY keeping the country afloat? 
 

[Ballygrl]

Look, gang, I'm a public worker in NYS.  The public employee unions have to give back on this next round of contracts.  Are there too many of us in NYS?  You betcha.  Right now, there's two different retirement incentives out there to get rid of older workers.  One of our offices (covers the west of NYS) is going to lose almost its' entire staff due to one of these.  Will the slots be filled?  Oh, I'm sure that the unions will clamor for that, but the current lame-duck governor won't do it (even as he continues to hire people, at over $100,000/yr, for his own staff), and we're pretty sure that his designated successor (Andy Cuomo) won't, either.  

There is way too much waste and abuse in NYS--and a lot of it, to be fair, comes from NYS' habit of having outside contractors do a lot of work that could be done by State employees.  But, a lot of it comes from, "It's not my job title, so you need to get someone else to do the job."  So, I see both sides of the argument in NYS.  The unions are too powerful, and the Dem-controlled State legislature is beholden to them.  The point of "I've had it!" is a lot farther down the road than in the country at large.  That is why you see stories on the Tea Party, in "newspapers" such as the New York Times, written with the slants that they are.  People in NYC are absolutely clueless as to what the rest of the country thinks.  (I'm also thinking that people in Albany are just as clueless as to what the rest of NYS thinks, too.)

My cousin and his wife work for the city and they're in a union, and his wife's office are trying to get all the older people out. And yes, there's so much waste that goes on in NYC when it comes to unions.

[zeitgeist]

The Federal retirement system change from CSRS to FERS in the eighties was a beginning.  Now it is time for similar reform at the state level.  State pension plans in numerous states are currently UNSUSTAINABLE.  Lots of people who have been promised a pony are not going to get one at some point in the future pretty much like what will happen if nothing is done to fix Social Security.  There have been a few threads in either politics or economics addressing the underlying problems.

[AllosaursRus]

And no one will answer... no one likes to think about it that way. Which is why most public employees get PISSED when I tell them they don't contribute to the tax base... "But I pay taxes, dammit!" Don't care - you don't contribute to the tax base... you get paid from the tax base.

22 MILLION gov't workers... with pensions. On average getting paid (fully loaded) more than private sector now.

We know that ~52% pay taxes.
We know there are 22 M gov't employees.

So how many people are REALLY keeping the country afloat? 
 

Seems to me, it's mostly those that post here!

[VivisMom]

I was a teacher (with an MA, making ~40K) and let me tell you, teachers deserve more than what they make.

While many of them are the lefty, nutty, moonbatty Pam Dawson type, it doesn't change the fact that most teachers spend hundreds of dollars a year of their OWN money to spend in the classroom. I know I was the one who supplied my students with kleenex and supplies for crafts, but I also had to get my own supplies for the overhead (including the light bulbs!), and often had to go and PAY to have copies made of the textbooks (because not only did I not have enough textbooks for my students, our copier spent about three months without paper or toner because our principal was 'trying to save money' while he renovated his office.) Our school was so bad that not even the teacher restrooms had soap or toilet paper, so we brought our own.

Keep in mind that when the gov't doles out money to school systems, that money never, ever gets to the students. Baltimore City spends an ungodly amount of money per student, but that money stays in the administrative offices and goes to line the pockets of the corrupt people who work for the school system. School administrators make around 80K...all for doing nothing. I have yet to meet a school administrator (in the public sector) who does anything but sit around and dictate rules from On High. If you want to find out where the REAL waste is in regard to public education, start with the Superintendent and the school administrators.

I won't lie, there are MANY problems with the teachers unions, one of which is the fact that schools still use tenure, which the unions support. And I agree, nobody forces ANYONE to be a teacher. But you all have to keep in mind that teachers work very long days, and many often work a summer job or a PT job during the school year just to make ends meet. The teachers union is not entirely bad. The only way to stop bleeding money in the schools is to restructure and reorganize how schools are run to cut the unnecessary fat from both the schools and the administrative offices...and to hire competent people with an actual work ethic to do the work.

[bkg]

I was a teacher (with an MA, making ~40K) and let me tell you, teachers deserve more than what they make.

We disagree.

While many of them are the lefty, nutty, moonbatty Pam Dawson type, it doesn't change the fact that most teachers spend hundreds of dollars a year of their OWN money to spend in the classroom.

But see - that's a choice that they make. And while you mention it in your last statement, we still tend to forget that.

We also forget that people are getting paid a lot of money for what effectively is a part time job. Nine months a year, plus vacation, plus holidays, plus breaks... Their hourly wage is pretty good... and their benefits are (often) quite insane.

I work 12+ hours a day year round and weekends, so I don't feel sorry for anyone else who does the same.

[zeitgeist]

I was a teacher (with an MA, making ~40K) and let me tell you, teachers deserve more than what they make.

Knowing time and location would make a difference in the strength of your argument

While many of them are the lefty, nutty, moonbatty Pam Dawson type, it doesn't change the fact that most teachers spend hundreds of dollars a year of their OWN money to spend in the classroom. I know I was the one who supplied my students with kleenex and supplies for crafts, but I also had to get my own supplies for the overhead (including the light bulbs!), and often had to go and PAY to have copies made of the textbooks (because not only did I not have enough textbooks for my students, our copier spent about three months without paper or toner because our principal was 'trying to save money' while he renovated his office.) Our school was so bad that not even the teacher restrooms had soap or toilet paper, so we brought our own.
Where was the union steward, the ombudsman? Did you get to deduct these costs on your income tax? Did everyone bring their own soap and TP if not eeeewwwwwwe !!
Keep in mind that when the gov't doles out money to school systems, that money never, ever gets to the students. Baltimore City spends an ungodly amount of money per student, but that money stays in the administrative offices and goes to line the pockets of the corrupt people who work for the school system. School administrators make around 80K...all for doing nothing. I have yet to meet a school administrator (in the public sector) who does anything but sit around and dictate rules from On High. If you want to find out where the REAL waste is in regard to public education, start with the Superintendent and the school administrators.

I have no doubt schools are over administrated.  If you stay a teacher you cap out so you become an administrator.  One solution to the growing ranks would be merit pay.  Take that up with your union steward.

I won't lie, there are MANY problems with the teachers unions, one of which is the fact that schools still use tenure, which the unions support. And I agree, nobody forces ANYONE to be a teacher. But you all have to keep in mind that teachers work very long days, and many often work a summer job or a PT job during the school year just to make ends meet. The teachers union is not entirely bad. The only way to stop bleeding money in the schools is to restructure and reorganize how schools are run to cut the unnecessary fat from both the schools and the administrative offices...and to hire competent people with an actual work ethic to do the work.
There are lots of changes which would result in lower cost and better education but until the unions are forced to accept change it isn't going to happen.  Face it they have a strangle hold on things.  

It is also time to put all public employees fully into the Social Security system just like the Fed did with its employees using the FERS program.  

[VivisMom]

I was a teacher in Baltimore City from 2004-2006.

The unions could do nothing about our soap and TP issue, as it was a problem in each and every school. And yes, you could deduct some of that money on your taxes, but many teachers spent more than the allotted amount (I believe it was only up to $300, but I will have to look that up) because the schools often lacked basic necessities-like textbooks and working copiers. (And no, my department took up a collection to provide TP and soap for the faculty restroom in our wing, but I usually provided my kids with 'emergency' TP aka Kleenex.)

I have no problem with merit pay, I think it would make it easier to keep the good teachers and get rid of the bad ones. Sadly, the unions will not go for it. Make no mistake, I am NO fan of unions! I think they do far more harm than good, and this particular example proves how they are hurting our schools.

The problem with schools goes far beyond teachers. It's easy enough to blame them, but most of them are honest, hardworking people who care about the kids they teach and want to see them succeed. The problem lies with the unions, the administrators, and the school systems. Yes, there are awful teachers who are union flunkies, but not all of them are. To paint them all with a broad brush is unfair to the good ones.

[debk]

I was a teacher in Baltimore City from 2004-2006.

The unions could do nothing about our soap and TP issue, as it was a problem in each and every school. And yes, you could deduct some of that money on your taxes, but many teachers spent more than the allotted amount (I believe it was only up to $300, but I will have to look that up) because the schools often lacked basic necessities-like textbooks and working copiers. (And no, my department took up a collection to provide TP and soap for the faculty restroom in our wing, but I usually provided my kids with 'emergency' TP aka Kleenex.)

I have no problem with merit pay, I think it would make it easier to keep the good teachers and get rid of the bad ones. Sadly, the unions will not go for it. Make no mistake, I am NO fan of unions! I think they do far more harm than good, and this particular example proves how they are hurting our schools.

The problem with schools goes far beyond teachers. It's easy enough to blame them, but most of them are honest, hardworking people who care about the kids they teach and want to see them succeed. The problem lies with the unions, the administrators, and the school systems. Yes, there are awful teachers who are union flunkies, but not all of them are. To paint them all with a broad brush is unfair to the good ones.

Even years ago, when my kids were in elementary school(they graduated in '97 and '00)....at the beginning of the school year, on the list of required school supplies were kleenex, hand soap, box of bandaids, bottle of hydrogen peroxide. Plus, parents were asked to donate supplies to the clinic (I ran the clinic for a couple of years) - as each school was responsible for funding their own clinic.  We didn't have school nurses, it was all parent volunteers and we took Red Cross Advanced First Aid.

The school system just flat out didn't have the money for that kind of stuff for the individual schools. There were a few things that were paid for, restroom TP paper, paper towels and soap dispenser soap.

At the elementary school, the PTA did a couple of fund raisers a year, to get money for the school. We had them in order to buy playground equipment, to replace the swingsets that had been there for decades. The school system didn't buy it.

When my kids were young, there were two separate systems here....City and County. Around the time, my oldest was in middle school, the two combined to become K--- County Schools. Since then, funding has become more even, but parents still put a lot of extra monies into their kids schools.

Several real estate agents that I know, started out as teachers. They quit for a variety of reasons, but all have complained about how much or their own money they spent for their students. For supplies, different activities for their classrooms....lunch money! for their kids who either forgot their lunch money or didn't have it to begin with. I don't know how much they are given from the school board for their classrooms now, but it used to be very low, like about $100 a school year. While it may have changed over the years, I seriously doubt it is anywhere near what is needed for the individual classroom.

[BlueStateSaint]

The problem with schools goes far beyond teachers. It's easy enough to blame them, but most of them are honest, hardworking people who care about the kids they teach and want to see them succeed. The problem lies with the unions, the administrators, and the school systems. Yes, there are awful teachers who are union flunkies, but not all of them are. To paint them all with a broad brush is unfair to the good ones.

Ain't that the truth!  I know a bunch of teachers who are good people, and aren't part of the problem.  Hell, the daycare that my daughter is in is packed with kids of teachers. 

[VivisMom]

Since then, funding has become more even, but parents still put a lot of extra monies into their kids schools.

And that's the kicker! You think public education is supposed to be 'free' because it's taxpayer supported, but it's not even close. Parents are expected to shell out money for stuff for the classrooms, support PTA bake sales and stuff to raise money for new playground equipment, on top of paying the taxes that fund the schools.

The sad part is that no matter how much the governments increase funding to the schools, the money never, ever gets to where it's needed. Pay raises for teachers isn't the problem, it's a symptom of a larger illness. Yes, the teachers need compensation for their work, but keep in mind that schools receive hundreds of thousands of dollars a year (if not more) and that the majority of it ends up in the pockets of the people who least deserve it-the administrators.

I can tell you from first-hand experience about how school administrators abuse money. Our principal (who had been prosecuted in another state for not only bullying students but also bullying teachers) extensively renovated the administrative offices in the building while we had no soap or TP in bathrooms, no janitors to clean the classrooms, a rodent problem, no paper for our sporadically-working copiers, NO BOOKS IN OUR LIBRARY, serious mold problems, and a host of other issues (including many fire-code violations.) So while my kids sometimes sat two to a desk and often had no textbooks to use, this man was having catered lunches for his cronies, playing lots of golf, and having "meetings" with other administrators in fancy restaurants.

[AllosaursRus]

And that's the kicker! You think public education is supposed to be 'free' because it's taxpayer supported, but it's not even close. Parents are expected to shell out money for stuff for the classrooms, support PTA bake sales and stuff to raise money for new playground equipment, on top of paying the taxes that fund the schools.

The sad part is that no matter how much the governments increase funding to the schools, the money never, ever gets to where it's needed. Pay raises for teachers isn't the problem, it's a symptom of a larger illness. Yes, the teachers need compensation for their work, but keep in mind that schools receive hundreds of thousands of dollars a year (if not more) and that the majority of it ends up in the pockets of the people who least deserve it-the administrators.

I can tell you from first-hand experience about how school administrators abuse money. Our principal (who had been prosecuted in another state for not only bullying students but also bullying teachers) extensively renovated the administrative offices in the building while we had no soap or TP in bathrooms, no janitors to clean the classrooms, a rodent problem, no paper for our sporadically-working copiers, NO BOOKS IN OUR LIBRARY, serious mold problems, and a host of other issues (including many fire-code violations.) So while my kids sometimes sat two to a desk and often had no textbooks to use, this man was having catered lunches for his cronies, playing lots of golf, and having "meetings" with other administrators in fancy restaurants.

And you exposed all of this to the public, right? All the teachers got together, kicked ass and took names, right? You had videos of this extravagance on all the local news channels, right?

What did the local PTA have to say? Everyone inundated the school board meetings in order to express their outrage, correct? You put your Mayor on the hot-seat until he/she investigated this waste, didn't you?

I've read all your complaints but nothing of what you and your fellow teachers, turned Real estate agents, tried to do about it. Sounds like you just quit and left the broken system as is.

Sorry, but you stated you made 40 grand a year. That's a helluva lot more than the average Joe with 2 or 3 kids in your school is making. Back when my kids were in school, we got a list at the beginning of every year on what we had to furnish for our kids. That's the way it ought to be, btw. At the time the wife and I both worked and rarely made more than 40 grand a year!

Oh, and they didn't teach my kids America was the lousiest place on the planet, or hand out condoms, or teach them Danny has 2 dads!

I have a hard time feeling sorry for teachers when in NYC, child molesters hang out in some office getting full pay and benefits because they cannot be fired! Washington DC spends more per student than any other district in memory, yet have continually had the worst education value for the buck! The union is a major factor when it comes to this. I forget where, but a district wanted to extend the school day 15 frikkin' minutes a day, teachers went ballistic and threatened to strike! Their gripe was they weren't going to get a pay raise for the extra 15 minutes!

From what I have heard and seen, teachers have it a lot better than most of the parents in their districts. The system has, over the years, turned into nothing more than a huge waste of taxpayer dollars! We need the Federal Government and the unions out of education!

[VivisMom]

And you exposed all of this to the public, right? All the teachers got together, kicked ass and took names, right? You had videos of this extravagance on all the local news channels, right?

What did the local PTA have to say? Everyone inundated the school board meetings in order to express their outrage, correct? You put your Mayor on the hot-seat until he/she investigated this waste, didn't you?

I've read all your complaints but nothing of what you and your fellow teachers, turned Real estate agents, tried to do about it. Sounds like you just quit and left the broken system as is.

Being a young teacher, inexperienced with how things work, I didn't have any leverage to do anything...and you're right, the teachers could have done something but most of us were too beaten down to even think about it. I personally left not because of the kids, but because the principal singled out several teachers (myself being one of them) who had the gall to complain about how he was running his school. Of the teachers I had the pleasure of teaching with in my department, only four remain-the ones who never made waves or complained. Of the entire faculty, 75% of the ones I knew have left, and the turnover rate appears to be somewhere in the 3-5 year range. 

Our PTA was nonexistent. I taught inner-city kids, I was lucky if I could get a parent to return a phone call. Most of them treated us like babysitters-as long as their kid was showing up most of the time, they didn't want to be bothered. Parents didn't care. And they didn't have money either...every single student I had qualified for free lunch. Almost all of them had afterschool jobs because they 1) came from mostly single family homes where 2) mom's salary couldn't pay all the bills.

It's easy to criticize teachers when you haven't been one. Everyone thinks it's an easy job, but it is harder than it looks.

The system has, over the years, turned into nothing more than a huge waste of taxpayer dollars! We need the Federal Government and the unions out of education!

That we can agree on.