Author Topic: Gnostic Gospels  (Read 20419 times)

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Offline MrsSmith

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Re: Gnostic Gospels
« Reply #50 on: February 25, 2010, 08:05:00 PM »
Perhaps you might point me to exactly where scripture vests the warrants in an "organization" such as a church.........as opposed to the free association of believers........I'm no Biblical scholar, but my money would be on......the fact that you can't.....

If memory serves, there is only one statement in the New Testament where Christ refers to a "church", and in that statement most learned Biblical scholars believe that he was referring to Peter......

And you certainly are not bothering me......the Holy Spirit convicts me, not zealots of any stripe.......

doc
Paul was already supported by churches in his missions.  How many believers manage to build homes, orphanages, and schools without an organized church supporting them?  How do new Christians learn, especially if they can't yet read, without a church to teach them?  

Since when is an organized church not also a free association of believers? But a free association of believers can't each, alone, go fulfill the commands.

Do I actually need to quote you scripture?  Surely you know at least the New Testament well enough to see my points.
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Offline Doc

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Re: Gnostic Gospels
« Reply #51 on: February 25, 2010, 08:20:53 PM »
Near as I can tell the Nazarene was of the same opinion. His go-rounds with the establishment of the day are legendary to say the least, yet he never seemed to shirk religious duties such as Passover and whatnot.

He was an observant Jew, however, unless I completely missed the boat in that Sunday School lesson, the "New Covenant" eliminated all of that for the believer.....

Indeed, the larger anything gets the more impersonal it becomes whether religion, government, corporations or whatever. Still, I cannot imagine a large organization being an automatic disqualifier for remediation as if a large church in and of itself were a sin.

My personal beliefs aside, I don't think that the GG (at least that I've found so far), in any way suggests that participation in a Christian church places a believer beyond remediation, just that it is not necessary....

Of the large, modern demonimations the Catholics leave me perplexed the most. I see so many rites that I cannot reconcile and they definitely seem to have had the most controversial history but at the same time they have produced the likes of Augustine, Aquinas, Pascal, Francis of Assisi, Chesterton, Tolkien etc who have always held inexhaustable depths of humanity...all surprisingly born of the supposedly impersonal Catholic doctrine.

The early examples that you cite simply had no other choice, as there was only one church.......however, there are many Catholics that have moved beyond the dogma to the essence, and likely the remainder of those you mentioned found themselves there......after all, they were "great minds" in their own endeavors.

Conversely, the protestant and unaffiliated denominations appear personal yet they are awash in chaos. Certainly open inquiry is to be encouraged but at the same time the restless soul of man, coupled with his vanities and with his incessant need for novelty seem to invite impurities of doctrine that couls poison his soul just as easily as any brothel. Traditions also have a virtue.

I've found protestants, and particularly Evangelical ones, to be more "hidebound" and immersed in dogmatic minutia than Catholics.......therefore, certainly less likely to accept impurities of doctrine.

Perhaps God--assuming there is one...and this particular one--tolerates this situation to keep each in balance by the exertions of its opposites.

Or perhaps God is simply laughing...or beating His head against His desk.

I suspect that God laughs at us alot.........since He told us that he made us in his own image, he likely finds our quaint attempts at understanding the mysteries of life hilarious.....

Again, I am an outsider so more than likely I am unqualified to speak.

Anyone that demonstrates the level of intellectual dexterity that you do, most certainly does have every right to speak......only the closeminded and ignorant fear a free exchange of ideas.

As to the GG's: I have surveyed them and come away with the opinion, "so what?" Even if they were to true I see nothing in them particularly unique. I fail to see how they could improve a man's spiritual longings over anything else already provided. I know from my own warren they are very popular (no thanks to Dan Brown) but the warren I left is populated by those who like to congratulate themselves on being smarter than the proles. They enjoy the term "gnostic" for gnostic's sake. IOW, they like feeling they have some knowledge others do not. I do not lay this charge at the feet of anyone here but for the most part the GG's have, in my limited experience, been the books that served the reader's ego more than his humanity. Self-enlightened pharisees is the only term I can provide as a label.

I would suggest that the term "Gnostic" as it relates to knowledge, and these texts, is a misnomer.......that said, I am at a loss as to what else to call them.....for want of a better term.

Forgive me if the ill-manners of others has tainted my view of your studies. I mean nothing towards you personally.

Still, ill-manners seem to abound when the GG's are brought in (almost as bad as Christ's telemarketers: the Pentacostals). If (and I stress IF) I were to desire being a religious rabbit I would want to a god that to appeal to the philosophers and scientists...

...but I would also want one that would reach down to the filthy, unlettered wretches as well. After all, they by far make up the surging masses of humanity.

The very word "gnostic" seems to deny any such possibility.

doc
« Last Edit: February 26, 2010, 11:26:48 AM by TVDOC »

Offline Chris_

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Re: Gnostic Gospels
« Reply #52 on: February 25, 2010, 08:30:48 PM »
Paul was already supported by churches in his missions.  How many believers manage to build homes, orphanages, and schools without an organized church supporting them?  How do new Christians learn, especially if they can't yet read, without a church to teach them?  

Since when is an organized church not also a free association of believers? But a free association of believers can't each, alone, go fulfill the commands.

Do I actually need to quote you scripture?  Surely you know at least the New Testament well enough to see my points.

I see your points......I simply don't agree with them.......As far as quoting Scripture, I don't think that you can......Christ commissioned us to go fourth and do good works in his name......he never mentioned schools, and orphanages......it is an interpretive thing, thus very personal......you are entitled to your interpretation, and the rest of us ours......please don't imply that yours is the ONLY correct interpretation of that commission.....that would be unchristian, after all.....not to mention vain.....

doc

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Offline MrsSmith

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Re: Gnostic Gospels
« Reply #53 on: February 25, 2010, 11:09:09 PM »
And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed [it] unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother.  But if he will not hear [thee, then] take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.  And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell [it] unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.

Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.

Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.
Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so [let] the wives [be] to their own husbands in every thing.
Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.
So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself.
For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church:
For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.

members of his body - one body of believers.

My interpretation may not suit you, but it's well supported in the Scriptures.
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Offline SSG Snuggle Bunny

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Re: Gnostic Gospels
« Reply #54 on: February 26, 2010, 07:34:52 AM »
Why?  The filthy, unlettered wretches have as good a chance as anyone to find their inner guidance.  Maybe an even better chance as their minds aren't cluttered with all the excesses of a higher education.

I would say their problem would not be in God being able to reach down to them, as you say, but with the philosophers and scientists prejudicial views of a filthy, unlettered wretch being in the possession of wisdom without the proper credentials.
To clarify: I never said God would not reach down via the gnostic gospels

Quote
And while the Cather and Bogomil societies were divided into Perfecti and Believers, the Believers were not looked down upon or viewed as second-class citizens.  There was nothing extra special about the Perfecti, they simply had found their inner guidance.
Given time they would have become as all human creations become.

Again, I see nothing within the gnostic gospels that would be considered indispensable to inquiries of remediation between God and man. I see nothing in the snyoptic gospels that should preclude that remediation...except The Passion and resurrection (TPaR).

It seems to me that since the issue hangs on whether the TPaR is the means of remediation.

Let us assume the TPaR is God's intent. In that case the GG add nothing to that fact one may discard them without threat. The GG may even be a threat if they detract from that act.

If TPaR were not the means of man's remediation the GGs simply add to the number of books that press man to shed his selfishness and the TPaR distracts from this introspection. If the latter than Jesus' career is remarkable only for its brevity, not the novelty of his spiritual message because his spiritual message is not novel.
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Re: Gnostic Gospels
« Reply #55 on: February 26, 2010, 09:08:40 AM »
To clarify: I never said God would not reach down via the gnostic gospels
Given time they would have become as all human creations become.

Again, I see nothing within the gnostic gospels that would be considered indispensable to inquiries of remediation between God and man. I see nothing in the snyoptic gospels that should preclude that remediation...except The Passion and resurrection (TPaR).

It seems to me that since the issue hangs on whether the TPaR is the means of remediation.

Let us assume the TPaR is God's intent. In that case the GG add nothing to that fact one may discard them without threat. The GG may even be a threat if they detract from that act.

If TPaR were not the means of man's remediation the GGs simply add to the number of books that press man to shed his selfishness and the TPaR distracts from this introspection. If the latter than Jesus' career is remarkable only for its brevity, not the novelty of his spiritual message because his spiritual message is not novel.
A more fundamental question is, "What was the fall?" because if the separation from God never happened then that changes the game.  One bit of commentary on the Nag Hammadi codex that has stuck with me since I was a teen is something like:  "Original sin (error) is nothing more than mistaking what we see as the world as real."  If, as other faiths insist, the world is some sort of illusion, a "veil of tears," then anything that focuses in on the world as real is a distraction from "salvation," such as the "pain" the body feels, or seems to feel because, as we all know, the body does not feel pain, instead, the mind actually tells the body when to feel pain.

Therefore, if Jesus was really trying to redeem the world, he wasn't trying to put a giant guilt trip on us, the message of TPaR is the pain the body seems to feel is as meaningless as the seeming death of the body.  I believe this interpretation is backed up by the synoptic gospels where Jesus diminishes the importance of the body when he says it is better to enter into the Kingdom with one eye than to remain in Hell with two.
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Offline Chris_

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Re: Gnostic Gospels
« Reply #56 on: February 26, 2010, 10:47:55 AM »
And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed [it] unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother.  But if he will not hear [thee, then] take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.  And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell [it] unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.

Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.

Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.
Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so [let] the wives [be] to their own husbands in every thing.
Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.
So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself.
For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourished and cherished it, even as the Lord the church:
For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.

members of his body - one body of believers.

My interpretation may not suit you, but it's well supported in the Scriptures.


Actually no......its supported by YOUR INTERPRETATION of the Scriptures........

In the first bolded statement, which is the one that I referred to in a prior post, it is generally accepted (by Biblical Scholars) that Christ was referring to Peter personally, ("upon this rock" meaning the "rock" of Peter's strength and dedication to evangelism) and not a "body of believers".......this is the trap that many evangelicals fall into when they insist upon interpreting Scripture literally, word for word......often out of context.  You are perfectly free to do so, but don't expect to win any credibility from others while doing it.......

In the second reference that is bolded, nowhere can you cite scripture in the New Testament that the "body of believers" is required to be organized, have a hierarchy, and be "officially designated" as a church.......the Scriptures simply refer to any fellowship that is gathered in his name.........i.e. more than one believer.

Unfortunately, this is the problem that I run into with many "churches",(and their members)......when I study Scripture, I do so with an eye towards the multiple translations that it has gone through, and the total context of the individual "book" or discussion in the text.  I cannot take a single verse and attempt to prove a point with it, as that would be a gross logical error.......we can both agree that Scripture is the inspired Word of God, but I must view it through lens of the fallibility of the men who wrote it, and the other forces and motivations (political, translational, ecumenical) that brought it to where it is today.......it is simply silly, and ignorant to think that it "fell from the sky" in its present form without requiring any logical thought and interpretation as to how it got here.

Lets take for example the Old Testament......written in the original ancient Hebrew, it is still being interpreted and translations corrected.......by the same Jews (figuratively) that wrote it 3000 years ago, and through Kabbalistic studies, new meanings and interpretations are arising even today.......do we Christians really have the colossal audacity to believe that our interpretation is "absolutely correct" when the ancient society that started our entire faith is still evolving in its understanding of "its" faith, upon which ours is founded......that would take a lot of "chutzpah" to coin a phrase.......but I've never found a shortage of that in many Evangelicals......

doc
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Offline Chris_

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Re: Gnostic Gospels
« Reply #57 on: February 26, 2010, 11:17:58 AM »
To clarify: I never said God would not reach down via the gnostic gospels
Given time they would have become as all human creations become.

Again, I see nothing within the gnostic gospels that would be considered indispensable to inquiries of remediation between God and man. I see nothing in the snyoptic gospels that should preclude that remediation...except The Passion and resurrection (TPaR).


Perhaps I need to revert a bit as to why I think, broadly, that the Gnostic Gospels are interesting and important (strictly from an academic perspective).......I don't trust the Roman Catholic Church........not that I have anything against them, or their faith, just that they were the sole keepers of all Christian knowledge for 1500 years unchallenged.......and if we view the history of the RCC through this period we find that they were at times the most violent, corrupt,and repressive organization on the face of the earth.......so why should any thinking person believe that their version of events (which is the one accepted by the vast bulk of Christendom) is the correct, and unaltered one.

Evangelical protestants can stand in their respective pulpits forever shouting their "one true faith", but the fact remains that their faith evolved from the scriptural understandings that were kept and put forward by the RCC through the centuries.

The Gnostic texts give us a view of Christ's life that has been proven archaeologically, to have existed completely separately from the Roman Church.......and therefore academically (and spiritually) interesting, if for no other reason than to generate questions as to what actually happened.

And regardless of what "organized" religions may think, I believe that questions are always a good thing.......

doc
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Offline MrsSmith

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Re: Gnostic Gospels
« Reply #58 on: February 26, 2010, 06:21:29 PM »
Actually no......its supported by YOUR INTERPRETATION of the Scriptures........

In the first bolded statement, which is the one that I referred to in a prior post, it is generally accepted (by Biblical Scholars) that Christ was referring to Peter personally, ("upon this rock" meaning the "rock" of Peter's strength and dedication to evangelism) and not a "body of believers".......this is the trap that many evangelicals fall into when they insist upon interpreting Scripture literally, word for word......often out of context.  You are perfectly free to do so, but don't expect to win any credibility from others while doing it.......

Upon this rock I will build my church...  Peter, personally, yes, it could be.  The same belief in Christ...could be also.  It's pretty hard to duck His statement that He was founding a church, though.  Or the commandment for that church to preach His gospel to the entire world.  But hey, if you can do that all by your lonesome, with no support group...and never get led astray by things that may not be true (like the Gnostic Gospels), well, more power to you.  However, if it were me, I'd start seaching my own heart for some pride, you know?  "Big tough believer, don't need any educated person telling me that I may be off the path.  I can run my own life."   Satan uses our pride and self-reliance way more than we want to think, you know?
In the second reference that is bolded, nowhere can you cite scripture in the New Testament that the "body of believers" is required to be organized, have a hierarchy, and be "officially designated" as a church.......the Scriptures simply refer to any fellowship that is gathered in his name.........i.e. more than one believer.

Unfortunately, this is the problem that I run into with many "churches",(and their members)......when I study Scripture, I do so with an eye towards the multiple translations that it has gone through, and the total context of the individual "book" or discussion in the text.  I cannot take a single verse and attempt to prove a point with it, as that would be a gross logical error.......we can both agree that Scripture is the inspired Word of God, but I must view it through lens of the fallibility of the men who wrote it, and the other forces and motivations (political, translational, ecumenical) that brought it to where it is today.......it is simply silly, and ignorant to think that it "fell from the sky" in its present form without requiring any logical thought and interpretation as to how it got here.

Lets take for example the Old Testament......written in the original ancient Hebrew, it is still being interpreted and translations corrected.......by the same Jews (figuratively) that wrote it 3000 years ago, and through Kabbalistic studies, new meanings and interpretations are arising even today.......do we Christians really have the colossal audacity to believe that our interpretation is "absolutely correct" when the ancient society that started our entire faith is still evolving in its understanding of "its" faith, upon which ours is founded......that would take a lot of "chutzpah" to coin a phrase.......but I've never found a shortage of that in many Evangelicals......

doc
You might wonder if your real problem with organized religion isn't that there are churches, but that it "isn't cool" to be a member of one.  It is tough to go against the popular opinion of Christians these days...at least, until you do it long enough to figure out that popular opinion isn't very accurate.

Before I started to meet a lot of them, I avoided "bible thumpers" and "fundies" very carefully.  It came as quite a shock to me when I realized that the nicest people I've ever known are the ones that are in church every Sunday.
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Offline Chris_

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Re: Gnostic Gospels
« Reply #59 on: February 26, 2010, 08:10:26 PM »
Upon this rock I will build my church...  Peter, personally, yes, it could be.  The same belief in Christ...could be also. 

<snip>

Before I started to meet a lot of them, I avoided "bible thumpers" and "fundies" very carefully.  It came as quite a shock to me when I realized that the nicest people I've ever known are the ones that are in church every Sunday.

Brought in reinforcements, I see.....two distinctly different writing (and rationalization) styles.....

Do you allow others to do your "thinking" for you as well?

doc
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Offline Thor

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Re: Gnostic Gospels
« Reply #60 on: November 20, 2010, 12:44:15 AM »
I don't know how much more closely that one could get to Jesus than Mary Magdalene..... And yet, her Gospel was omitted from the New Testament. The facts are, the Council of Nicea was a political group and even the Catholic Church uses these Gospels that were omitted from the Bible in the form of the Apocrypha. Also, in early times, the "Priests" and "church leaders" were a sexist bunch, often treating women like the Muslims do today.
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Offline TVDOC

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Re: Gnostic Gospels
« Reply #61 on: November 20, 2010, 10:28:35 AM »
I don't know how much more closely that one could get to Jesus than Mary Magdalene..... And yet, her Gospel was omitted from the New Testament. The facts are, the Council of Nicaea was a political group and even the Catholic Church uses these Gospels that were omitted from the Bible in the form of the Apocrypha. Also, in early times, the "Priests" and "church leaders" were a sexist bunch, often treating women like the Muslims do today.

Pretty much the point that I was establishing in the previous five pages of this thread.......however, you risk the wrath of the "righteous" by resurrecting it...........I'll let you fade the heat this time......

doc

 
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Re: Gnostic Gospels
« Reply #62 on: November 20, 2010, 11:20:11 AM »
I get your point, DOC. However, who is to say what/ who is "righteous"?? It's all a matter of personal opinions and beliefs. And we ALL know about "opinions"....  ;)
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Re: Gnostic Gospels
« Reply #63 on: July 27, 2011, 04:31:08 PM »
I've read quite a bit on this and from what I gather, most were excluded because of their much later dating.  By the turn of the first century, the earliest church fathers had a fairly common collection of texts that were commonly referred to and used.  These included most of the books of the New Testament.  It was not official "cannon" or even called a "bible" as the Old Testament was the "Bible", but the books were used and referenced by those who were seen as the ones to carry on the tradition of Christ and his disciples.

By (I think) 200AD, before many of the famous Gnostic Gospels were even written, all but 11 verses of the New Testament could be reconstructed without any fragments or copies of the Bible, simply by taking the verses written in the correspondence between the early church fathers.  The only time later (still pre-Nicea) church fathers mentioned the Gnostics were to warn people against reading them.  This was still 100 years before the Council of Nicea.  I think the church fathers referenced the New Testament verses some 33,000 times in their correspondence if I recall correctly.

The books were chosen simply because that was what was already heavily in use.

Lots of modern authors have a tendency to romanticize the Gnostic Gospels, especially the Gospel of Thomas, but they rarely mention the fact that TGOT is misogynistic, for example.  And of course, folks like Dan Brown just fictionalize the entire process.

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Re: Gnostic Gospels
« Reply #64 on: August 05, 2011, 05:30:41 AM »
I would have liked to be part of this discussion when it was was fresh.  I'll comment now though regarding this passage, sentence bolded:

Quote

The gnostics also believed something radically different from what today we would call traditional Christianity.  The essential doctrine which set the gnostics apart was a belief that there was a good God and an evil, insane creator god, the god who created the earth being the evil one.   This caused some rather radical theories about Jesus, such as, Jesus being the true Son of the good God was sent here to release us from the bondage of the insane creator god, Samael and therefore, not being a creation of Samael, Jesus could not have taken on flesh and therefore could not have died on the cross.

It always stood out for me, considering what is implied by this:   

I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery; you shall have no other gods before me.

Offline vesta111

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Re: Gnostic Gospels
« Reply #65 on: August 05, 2011, 12:27:04 PM »
Darn this is interesting reading.

Now I wonder what Jesus meant by the word Church, what was the meaning to HIM. HE as a JEW, his mother and legal father were Jews as was John the Baptist and  [most of his followers ]---not to forget that GOD Himself considers Himself a Jew as the 12 Tribes were his special people.

Church I do not think would be a term Jesus would use as I see nothing to indicate that Jesus wanted to split with his faith. He it seems wanted to bring a kinder and gentler side of God to the Jews, not split off into some other faith.

Putting aside any momobjumo and looking at Jesus as a man first, to many only half human, in no way would he want his faith to become different, just gentler.

What was the meaning of the word Church at the time HE walked the Earth and later 200 years or so later, what did that mean to the Christians and all the translations and languages ???

Some how I cannot see God approving of Jesus creating a foreign faith, that would undo all HIS work for HIS people.   Turn on his people and attempt to distroy them.

What happens to GOD if all the Jews on earth were to die, without his people to worship HIM as instructed, would God cease to exist???

Yeah, Yeah I know I am looking at this from a human point, but if we are made in Gods Image, then I have to give God the same trates we humans have. 

Offline obumazombie

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Re: Gnostic Gospels
« Reply #66 on: February 14, 2012, 03:45:03 AM »
There must be more to Christianity than the Old Testament, and the New Testament. And some of this more would include tradition, and a spoken record of the church. Also there would need to be a lineage leading directly back to Christ. Christ's lineage to Adam is fairly well spelled out in the Old Testament. The reason lineage is important in my eyes is that there can only be no more than one true religion. God is the author of unity, and order , not confusion. Faith, and it's intricacies 
are important, because not all can be known. What cannot be known must be left to faith.
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Re: Gnostic Gospels
« Reply #67 on: February 14, 2012, 09:20:22 AM »
....

In essence, my faith is personal and it's a direct reflection of my relationship with God and Jesus Christ. The church helps support me in my efforts, but I shouldn't EVER depend on an organization/bureaucracy to do what I need to do for myself and my God.

that sums it up for me as well

Offline vesta111

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Re: Gnostic Gospels
« Reply #68 on: April 14, 2013, 06:13:42 PM »
that sums it up for me as well

Found this for you Colonel C, quite a interesting thread for a Bible Scoller.  If I were to have a child in Bible school, I would start at the begining, take them to Friday night services at the local synogog and learn what Jesus was taught .   

High holy days are a must to see and hear what Jesus saw and heard in his young years.   All the unacounted years of his life, where was he and what was he learning.?

HE was a carpenter by trade, was he building boats ??  How did he meet Mary Magiline and how old was she ??  Why were his diciples so jealous of her ??? 

 Interesting that his mothers sister  also claimed to have a virgin birth to John the Baptist.  Small town were they raised together as family ??   

Until John was beheaded for being a troublemaker Jesus was kind of quiet.   After that he seemed to give up his job and begin street preaching.    HE must have abandoned his job and gone out collecting deciples as they wandered about the area.   How did he survive with no job, and at one time had to live in a cave.   

In order to know Jesus, one must know what HE believed as a Jew.   To teach the Christian faith one must know what Jesus believed in HIMSELF.    Get the to a Synogog and get trained as he was first then go on the long hard road to what his believer after he died believed.
 

Offline ColonelCarrots

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Re: Gnostic Gospels
« Reply #69 on: April 15, 2013, 07:00:56 PM »
Found this for you Colonel C, quite a interesting thread for a Bible Scoller.  If I were to have a child in Bible school, I would start at the begining, take them to Friday night services at the local synogog and learn what Jesus was taught .   

High holy days are a must to see and hear what Jesus saw and heard in his young years.   All the unacounted years of his life, where was he and what was he learning.?

HE was a carpenter by trade, was he building boats ??  How did he meet Mary Magiline and how old was she ??  Why were his diciples so jealous of her ??? 

 Interesting that his mothers sister  also claimed to have a virgin birth to John the Baptist.  Small town were they raised together as family ??   

Until John was beheaded for being a troublemaker Jesus was kind of quiet.   After that he seemed to give up his job and begin street preaching.    HE must have abandoned his job and gone out collecting deciples as they wandered about the area.   How did he survive with no job, and at one time had to live in a cave.   

In order to know Jesus, one must know what HE believed as a Jew.   To teach the Christian faith one must know what Jesus believed in HIMSELF.    Get the to a Synogog and get trained as he was first then go on the long hard road to what his believer after he died believed.
 
I doubt Jesus was building boats. Nazareth and Bethlehem were both land locked. The life of Jesus isn't relevant (Like most of the wandering in the Wilderness isn't in the Bible) before John the Baptist because the time wasn't ready. Remember what John the Baptist was doing, he was paving the way. He was the last Old Testament prophet(because the Holy Spirit didn't dwell in him. It was in him, but wasn't there to stay because the Holy Spirit begins to dwell in people when Jesus says he is going to heaven to prepare a place for his disciples, but will bring a comforter. John was dead by then.). Jesus' ministry was important not when he was weaned. He started his ministry after he was baptized.

Jesus probably survived on gifts. Like a missionary who goes on deputation to go to the mission field. To be honest I don't think the Son of God has to worry about starving even without money.

Jesus met Mary Magdalene in Luke 8:2. She is possessed by 7 devils.

Also it is spelled as synagogue.

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Re: Gnostic Gospels
« Reply #70 on: May 01, 2013, 10:13:31 PM »
There must be more to Christianity than the Old Testament, and the New Testament. And some of this more would include tradition, and a spoken record of the church. Also there would need to be a lineage leading directly back to Christ. Christ's lineage to Adam is fairly well spelled out in the Old Testament. The reason lineage is important in my eyes is that there can only be no more than one true religion. God is the author of unity, and order , not confusion. Faith, and it's intricacies  
are important, because not all can be known. What cannot be known must be left to faith.

Agreed. The Bible we know today is from the First Council of Nicaea in 325 AD.

Just to add, many of the what Christianity is, is a product of the First Council of Nicaea.
« Last Edit: May 02, 2013, 10:21:32 AM by Ptarmigan »
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Offline vesta111

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Re: Gnostic Gospels
« Reply #71 on: May 02, 2013, 09:31:13 AM »
I doubt Jesus was building boats. Nazareth and Bethlehem were both land locked. The life of Jesus isn't relevant (Like most of the wandering in the Wilderness isn't in the Bible) before John the Baptist because the time wasn't ready. Remember what John the Baptist was doing, he was paving the way. He was the last Old Testament prophet(because the Holy Spirit didn't dwell in him. It was in him, but wasn't there to stay because the Holy Spirit begins to dwell in people when Jesus says he is going to heaven to prepare a place for his disciples, but will bring a comforter. John was dead by then.). Jesus' ministry was important not when he was weaned. He started his ministry after he was baptized.

Jesus probably survived on gifts. Like a missionary who goes on deputation to go to the mission field. To be honest I don't think the Son of God has to worry about starving even without money.

Jesus met Mary Magdalene in Luke 8:2. She is possessed by 7 devils.

Also it is spelled as synagogue.

You say the life before Jesus  met John the Baptist is not relevant.   For goodness sake John was the son of Jesus mothers sister.  He Jesus and John must have known and grew up with each other. Small town and family must have gathered together quite often.   

Naturally this is relevant, family bond by blood of Jesus and John for many years. Both were raised together and worshiped together with both family's on High Holy days.

Very much like today's family's where two sisters visit often and the their kids play together. These two cousins had to have found a common bond, somewhere in the their adult formative lives that we have no record of.

Question is how John had the power to baptise the Son of God if he did not have the Power to do so if the Holy Spirit did not dwell in him ??

 The more questions I have transcends faith, it becomes fact and brings this into  the realm of --- not faith but belief, a real thing that happend and the truth and not some old story from the past that has been fiddled with for 2000 years to benefit others.

The more I learn about Jesus the more I believe in Him, His life is very relevant to me, who he was raised by, who his teachers were, his parents Mary and Joseph and the family's on both sides of the family.   

All a huge influence on Jesus  to my mind , a someone not to have just faith but belief in that changed the world.   

Offline FlaGator

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Re: Gnostic Gospels
« Reply #72 on: May 02, 2013, 10:03:43 AM »
A word about the gnostic gospels and why they weren't included in the Bible. When the Council of Nicea was deciding which books to include in what would become the New Testament some of the criteria that was use was could the writings be validated to be from the 1st century. To make this determination the reviewed earlier documents that could be accurately data that referenced the writings. The letters of people like Clement and Irenaeus and Polycarp were used to valid the Gospels and Epistles of Paul, Peter, John and the others. Also the writings were viewed in light of theologically agreeing with each other.

The problem with the gnostic writings is either they were too new to be considered valid or they were making claims to teachings that could not be validated against the teaching of Christ and the known teachings of the Apostles. Also, and this is my personal belief, that God guided the process so that only the correct books were included and that the revelation of the Gospel is true and accurate.

The gnostic gospels seem to be contrived to put forth some idea or another that is contrary to the accepted cannon. The claims that Christ was really a spirit and that is physical appearance was an illusion, that He taught some secret ideology that he only shared with the Apostles, that He had a homosexual relationship (secret Mark), etc.

There was a theologian who was asked to by a lady journalist why he didn't consider the Gospel of Thomas as being value, that it contained a lot of wisdom that was in the current four Gospels but some extra stuff that seem important to know. The theologian, and I can't remember who it was, ask the journalist what she thought of the last verse of the Gospel of Thomas. We she read it she withdrew her previous support of this gnostic gospel.

Here was verse 114 of the Gospel of Thomas
(114) Simon Peter said to him, "Let Mary leave us, for women are not worthy of life."
Jesus said, "I myself shall lead her in order to make her male, so that she too may become a living spirit resembling you males. For every woman who will make herself male will enter the kingdom of heaven."
« Last Edit: May 02, 2013, 11:08:18 AM by FlaGator »
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Offline Ptarmigan

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Re: Gnostic Gospels
« Reply #73 on: May 02, 2013, 10:22:16 AM »
I don't know how much more closely that one could get to Jesus than Mary Magdalene..... And yet, her Gospel was omitted from the New Testament. The facts are, the Council of Nicea was a political group and even the Catholic Church uses these Gospels that were omitted from the Bible in the form of the Apocrypha. Also, in early times, the "Priests" and "church leaders" were a sexist bunch, often treating women like the Muslims do today.

They often portray Mary Magdalene as a prostitute.
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Re: Gnostic Gospels
« Reply #74 on: May 02, 2013, 11:11:23 AM »
They often portray Mary Magdalene as a prostitute.

or an adulterer but the Bible never actually states this. It is believed that elements with in the church spread this false assumption  in order to diminish her role (and the role of women in general) in Jesus' ministry.
Man’s greatness is so obvious that it can even be deduced from his wretchedness, for what is nature in animals we call wretchedness in man, thus recognizing that, if his nature is today like that of the animals, he must have fallen from some better state which was once his own.
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