Author Topic: Singularities  (Read 7226 times)

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Offline Chris_

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Re: Singularities
« Reply #25 on: January 12, 2010, 03:55:58 PM »
Thank you for the correction. I misread your post. The last time I checked into the pocket protector crowd I was reading Hawkins latest work.

But yeah, science improves on itself all the time. (no pun intended.) Which is my point. In five years some grad student may come running out of the library in a panic trying to shut down CERN due to yet another theory.

Also, since you seem far more erudite in this area, and I am a confessed dilettante, could you elucidate further on this subject?

My Physics discipline is long obsolete.......and although I try to stay as current as I can, I simply can't keep up with the advance of understanding today.  Up until recently, I was a moderator on an academic science board, and as a result was a bit closer to mainstream research, but those who are working in this area are closemouthed about it (grant money, patients and all), so much is happening behind the scenes.

There are quantum labs at MIT, CalTech, and a couple of universities in the EU that I know of (one in Switzerland, and another in Russia) that are on the cutting edge, I'm told, as well as some commercially-funded "think tanks", one of which is largely funded by AT&T, and another by one of Gates' subsidiaries in partnership with JPL.

I'll try to find some links to stuff that you can read about what is going on..........

doc
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Offline ironhorsedriver

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Re: Singularities
« Reply #26 on: January 12, 2010, 07:48:49 PM »
My understanding is that regardless of it's possibilities, Nothing could survive the gravitational stress of passing beyond the event horizon.

Offline Aaron Burr

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Re: Singularities
« Reply #27 on: January 12, 2010, 08:23:44 PM »
Hmmm. Further research on this topic is warranted. I'm starting here.

[youtube=425,350]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nHex9A-M5A4&feature=related[/youtube]

So it looks like it's not the black hole you have to worry about per se, but rather the friggin' killer robots and whacked out German scientists....sigh, I guess some things never change.
« Last Edit: January 12, 2010, 08:30:00 PM by Aaron Burr »

Offline Chris_

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Re: Singularities
« Reply #28 on: January 13, 2010, 10:25:13 AM »
Hmmm. Further research on this topic is warranted. I'm starting here.

[youtube=425,350]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nHex9A-M5A4&feature=related[/youtube]

So it looks like it's not the black hole you have to worry about per se, but rather the friggin' killer robots and whacked out German scientists....sigh, I guess some things never change.

Hollyweird at its best.......

I thought that "Event Horizion" was the best movie on this topic........

doc
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Offline DumbAss Tanker

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Re: Singularities
« Reply #29 on: January 13, 2010, 11:18:04 AM »
I discount the whole wormhole-as-stargate idea, it just seems like magical thinking, since long before you got to any theoretical gateway you would have been rendered into a hyperenergetic stream of subatomic particles and radiation waves.

The part I do find mystifying, and possibly the key to unlocking the universe, is the idea that eventually the super-black-holes will 'Evaporate.'  No matter or electromagnetic energy can escape from below the event horizon, so how does this happen?  Is there a mechanism by which there is a quantum conversion or decay of the other three fundamental forces into gravity, which is the only fundamental force that can extend across the event horizon, and that gravity thus has properties that are not merely and entirely dependent on mass?  It would seem that an understanding of this could ultimately lead to technology to manipulate gravitational force, which would open the universe to us.
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Offline Aaron Burr

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Re: Singularities
« Reply #30 on: January 13, 2010, 11:31:55 AM »
I wish you would change your screen name to Armored Combat Vehicle Engineer. D.A.T. seems like false advertising.

Oh, and I would have gone with the event horizon clip, but sadly, that movie lacked the gripping screen presence of B.O.B.

[youtube=425,350]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9bGOsQFMEbs[/youtube]

Offline The Village Idiot

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Re: Singularities
« Reply #31 on: January 13, 2010, 11:41:37 AM »
I wish you would change your screen name to Armored Combat Vehicle Engineer. D.A.T. seems like false advertising.

Oh, and I would have gone with the event horizon clip, but sadly, that movie lacked the gripping screen presence of B.O.B.

[youtube=425,350]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9bGOsQFMEbs[/youtube]

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Offline Doc

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Re: Singularities
« Reply #32 on: January 13, 2010, 11:55:36 AM »

The part I do find mystifying, and possibly the key to unlocking the universe, is the idea that eventually the super-black-holes will 'Evaporate.'  No matter or electromagnetic energy can escape from below the event horizon, so how does this happen?  Is there a mechanism by which there is a quantum conversion or decay of the other three fundamental forces into gravity, which is the only fundamental force that can extend across the event horizon, and that gravity thus has properties that are not merely and entirely dependent on mass?  It would seem that an understanding of this could ultimately lead to technology to manipulate gravitational force, which would open the universe to us.

You are correctly knocking on the door of what the discipline of Quantum Physics is all about........gravity is the only readily visible force that has never been explained mathematically, and exists instantaneously throughout the universe......it is not subject to any theoretical or real "speed limits" as other visible forces are.  It is unquantifiable, except as a mathematical constant (which we know is erroneous, because we can observe "variations" in gravitational effects, especially in singularities).  

This new level of thought goes beyond the concept of dimensional matter as we know it, and delves into the area far beyond subatomic physics into the concept of time as a non-constant, but enveloping entity.  It views the existence of matter in the universe as irrelevant, and focuses on what exists where matter doesn't exist, i.e. "quantum foam", an area of "multilateral force" only, kept in balance by unknown relationships between, to oversimplify, matter and antimatter.

It is hard for me to visualize, and I've been studying theoretical Physics for forty years.........which makes it even more frustrating to relate to someone else.  As I mentioned up thread, a new level of mathematics will be necessary to attempt to define these concepts, so it is therefore, by definition, quite esoteric.

But you are correct in the statement that this will be the next great leap forward in technology........the best analogy that I can put forward is that it will be similar to the transition from Newtonian physics to Einsteinean physics.....

doc
« Last Edit: January 13, 2010, 12:06:06 PM by TVDOC »

Offline Aaron Burr

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Re: Singularities
« Reply #33 on: January 13, 2010, 12:23:12 PM »
Easily my most favorite thread. Please continue Dr. Doc. And don't be afraid of using any technical jargon or even complex mathematical computations to explain your points.

Am I reading this correctly? Gravity is not necessarily a property of mass and can exist independently of it?

Also, the balance between matter and anti matter may be due to the existence of the multiple dimesions?

Fascinating.

Offline DumbAss Tanker

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Re: Singularities
« Reply #34 on: January 13, 2010, 01:22:20 PM »
I wish you would change your screen name to Armored Combat Vehicle Engineer. D.A.T. seems like false advertising.

You have to actually know quite a bit of technical stuff to command a tank (Quantum mechanics, maybe not so much), even an old-school M60A1 like the one in my avatar.  'DumbAss Tanker' is really more of an attitudinal description that jealous infantrymen slapped onto us way back in the day, some time during WWII or the first couple of decades of the Cold War.  Tankers are kind of a hard-headed lot.
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Offline Chris

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Re: Singularities
« Reply #35 on: January 13, 2010, 01:25:14 PM »
When I was at Ford, a guy I worked with used to be a tank driver in the Army.  He drove his Pontiac Grand Am the same way... he floored it everywhere he went.  You should have seen him pull out of a parking spot.
:lmao:
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Offline Chris_

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Re: Singularities
« Reply #36 on: January 13, 2010, 01:31:34 PM »

Am I reading this correctly? Gravity is not necessarily a property of mass and can exist independently of it?

Also, the balance between matter and anti matter may be due to the existence of the multiple dimesions?


Gravity, as we visualize it is a function of mass, but only in the presence of the assumption of time as linear.  If one were to view "time" as an infinite variable, gravity is no longer dependent on the presence of mass.  

We see it presently as the relationship "force" between two celestial bodies (for example), but in the instance  of a "black hole" resulting from a collapsed star, the force known as gravity becomes theoretically infinite (in our present understanding), and the observable mass has disappeared.  Mass is mass, whether the mass of a star is nine hundred thousand kilometers in diameter, or collapses to the size of a basketball, theoretically, the mass (sans energy burnoff) should remain approximately the same for sake of argument, so why the monumental increase in the gravitational effect within the event horizon.  So now we have thrown a new variable into the mix........a given gravitational force is no longer dependent on the presence of a fixed quantity of mass, but the "density" thereof..........therefore other forces are at work in this example besides our view of gravity as a matter-dependent constant.

The initial thought was that the "gravity" flux in this example becomes so intense that no measurable light can emerge, however other forms of energy do emerge from these singularities, which would nullify the flux theory.  So why does the gravitational effect increase in these singularities, when we are dealing with a (relatively) constant presence of mass (regardless of density).  Further, why do some forms of energy escape from them, while others do not?

Singularities are not good examples of our understanding (or lack thereof) of quantum level occurrences, as, I suspect, there is much more going on in them than we are aware of.........a dimensional gateway, or rip in "our" space/time continuum.......perhaps, but they are far more complex than we are presently capable of seeing and measuring.

Regarding your second question, since we have yet to observe the presence of antimatter anywhere other than in a laboratory, we don't know whether the balance between these two states is interdimensional, but the suspicion is that it is, based on the cataclysmic results when the two states are intentionally merged  The energy released by an intentional combining of the two states far exceeds the calculated conversion levels, therefore the additional energy is coming from somewhere else.........and it is also theorized that it is an area where "time" as we know it becomes spherical, rather than linear.



doc
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Offline vesta111

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Re: Singularities
« Reply #37 on: January 13, 2010, 08:12:53 PM »
Gravity, as we visualize it is a function of mass, but only in the presence of the assumption of time as linear.  If one were to view "time" as an infinite variable, gravity is no longer dependent on the presence of mass.  

We see it presently as the relationship "force" between two celestial bodies (for example), but in the instance  of a "black hole" resulting from a collapsed star, the force known as gravity becomes theoretically infinite (in our present understanding), and the observable mass has disappeared.  Mass is mass, whether the mass of a star is nine hundred thousand kilometers in diameter, or collapses to the size of a basketball, theoretically, the mass (sans energy burnoff) should remain approximately the same for sake of argument, so why the monumental increase in the gravitational effect within the event horizon.  So now we have thrown a new variable into the mix........a given gravitational force is no longer dependent on the presence of a fixed quantity of mass, but the "density" thereof..........therefore other forces are at work in this example besides our view of gravity as a matter-dependent constant.

The initial thought was that the "gravity" flux in this example becomes so intense that no measurable light can emerge, however other forms of energy do emerge from these singularities, which would nullify the flux theory.  So why does the gravitational effect increase in these singularities, when we are dealing with a (relatively) constant presence of mass (regardless of density).  Further, why do some forms of energy escape from them, while others do not?

Singularities are not good examples of our understanding (or lack thereof) of quantum level occurrences, as, I suspect, there is much more going on in them than we are aware of.........a dimensional gateway, or rip in "our" space/time continuum.......perhaps, but they are far more complex than we are presently capable of seeing and measuring.

Regarding your second question, since we have yet to observe the presence of antimatter anywhere other than in a laboratory, we don't know whether the balance between these two states is interdimensional, but the suspicion is that it is, based on the cataclysmic results when the two states are intentionally merged The energy released by an intentional combining of the two states far exceeds the calculated conversion levels, therefore the additional energy is coming from somewhere else.........and it is also theorized that it is an area where "time" as we know it becomes spherical, rather than linear.



doc

Come on Doc, gravity is not some mathematical equation, it simply exists when matter is spun around strong enough to cause things to navigate to the center of the force.

Lots of stuff cause gravity, the sun, the moon our earth itself.    Even in a vacuum gravity can be formed, it is the speed of the object that causes this.  Everything out there has some form of speed, the heat from a star, causes whatever to either move away or go into the core.

As long as there is movement there will be gravity, when things become still, no movement then everything is gearing up for another big bang.  There is only movement when there is pressure, heat is essential, were the stars cold and unmoving, that would be the end to everything----what ever that is.

We Earthlings are unique, so far as we would like to think, Be nice to believe there are others like us out there, NO WAY.     If we are in fact being visited by what we call UFO's then they have to come from the future, that is why those funny little fellows sort of resemble humans.   

So far I have never heard of anyone describing these Alians as looking like hippopotamuses.

Offline Chris_

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Re: Singularities
« Reply #38 on: January 13, 2010, 08:24:25 PM »
Come on Doc, gravity is not some mathematical equation, it simply exists when matter is spun around strong enough to cause things to navigate to the center of the force.

Lots of stuff cause gravity, the sun, the moon our earth itself.    Even in a vacuum gravity can be formed, it is the speed of the object that causes this.  Everything out there has some form of speed, the heat from a star, causes whatever to either move away or go into the core.

As long as there is movement there will be gravity, when things become still, no movement then everything is gearing up for another big bang.  There is only movement when there is pressure, heat is essential, were the stars cold and unmoving, that would be the end to everything----what ever that is.


Um......methinks you are confusing gravity with centrifugal force.........you might want to take Physics 101 over again........

doc
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Offline Aaron Burr

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Re: Singularities
« Reply #39 on: January 13, 2010, 10:11:22 PM »
Personally, I found post 36 to be pretty fuggin' brilliant. I'll let the time theory pass for a couple of days until I do some more book learnin'.

But it seems like gravity (or what we perceive as gravity) according to your suggestion, may exist independent of mass, or even matter. I hadn't considered that.

But to return to singularities, if black holes possibly serve as gateways to "somewhere" else, then wouldn't there be gateways in our universe dumping stuff out from "somewhere" else?

Maybe that's where all that dark matter comes from.
 

Offline The Village Idiot

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Re: Singularities
« Reply #40 on: January 13, 2010, 10:17:23 PM »
But to return to singularities, if black holes possibly serve as gateways to "somewhere" else, then wouldn't there be gateways in our universe dumping stuff out from "somewhere" else?

Maybe that's where all that dark matter comes from.
 

A white hole??


Offline DumbAss Tanker

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Re: Singularities
« Reply #41 on: January 14, 2010, 08:54:55 AM »
Come on Doc, gravity is not some mathematical equation, it simply exists when matter is spun around strong enough to cause things to navigate to the center of the force.

Lots of stuff cause gravity, the sun, the moon our earth itself.    Even in a vacuum gravity can be formed, it is the speed of the object that causes this.  Everything out there has some form of speed, the heat from a star, causes whatever to either move away or go into the core.

As long as there is movement there will be gravity, when things become still, no movement then everything is gearing up for another big bang.  There is only movement when there is pressure, heat is essential, were the stars cold and unmoving, that would be the end to everything----what ever that is.

We Earthlings are unique, so far as we would like to think, Be nice to believe there are others like us out there, NO WAY.     If we are in fact being visited by what we call UFO's then they have to come from the future, that is why those funny little fellows sort of resemble humans.   

So far I have never heard of anyone describing these Alians as looking like hippopotamuses.


 :wtf3:

 :orly:

And Doc...Centrifugal force?  Are you trying to talk down to us backwoods shadetree-mechanic hilljacks that glanced up suspiciously at our high school Physics teachers when they started talking about angular momentum and centripetal force?

 :-)
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Offline Chris_

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Re: Singularities
« Reply #42 on: January 14, 2010, 10:31:39 AM »
But to return to singularities, if black holes possibly serve as gateways to "somewhere" else, then wouldn't there be gateways in our universe dumping stuff out from "somewhere" else?

Maybe that's where all that dark matter comes from.
 

Perhaps that IS where "dark matter" comes from........but to expand on that a bit, we still haven't figured out where the original "matter" came from that initiated the "Big Bang"........

The portal going the opposite direction (into our universe) may be vastly larger than we can imagine.........

doc
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Offline Chris_

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Re: Singularities
« Reply #43 on: January 14, 2010, 10:35:45 AM »


 :wtf3:

 :orly:

And Doc...Centrifugal force?  Are you trying to talk down to us backwoods shadetree-mechanic hilljacks that glanced up suspiciously at our high school Physics teachers when they started talking about angular momentum and centripetal force?

 :-)

I was jerking vesta's chain........

Don't forget I WAS one of those backwoods shadetree-mechanic hilljacks at one point in my life (and I can STILL pull an engine with a chainfall and a good oak tree)........I just had a really good teacher........

doc
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Offline Chris_

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Re: Singularities
« Reply #44 on: January 14, 2010, 10:51:11 AM »
We Earthlings are unique, so far as we would like to think, Be nice to believe there are others like us out there, NO WAY.     If we are in fact being visited by what we call UFO's then they have to come from the future, that is why those funny little fellows sort of resemble humans.   

So far I have never heard of anyone describing these Alians as looking like hippopotamuses.

What would make someone so arrogant (or ignorant) as to presuppose that in the vastness of our universe (not even considering thinking interdimensionally) our little orb is the ONLY one that is supportive of any intelligent life?

The mathematical probability analysis of this situation simply doesn't support your conclusion (not that I'm surprised).

Unless the astrophysics community thought otherwise, why do you think that when NASA launched the Mariner probes (and others) into deep space, they all carried messages describing our location and civilization?

Someone with an IQ larger than their hat size must not agree with you..........

doc
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Offline Eupher

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Re: Singularities
« Reply #45 on: January 14, 2010, 10:54:52 AM »
What would make someone so arrogant (or ignorant) as to presuppose that in the vastness of our universe (not even considering thinking interdimensionally) our little orb is the ONLY one that is supportive of any intelligent life?

The mathematical probability analysis of this situation simply doesn't support your conclusion (not that I'm surprised).

Unless the astrophysics community thought otherwise, why do you think that when NASA launched the Mariner probes (and others) into deep space, they all carried messages describing our location and civilization?

Someone with an IQ larger than their hat size must not agree with you..........

doc

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