Author Topic: What steps can a citizen take to save America?  (Read 4984 times)

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Offline GOP Congress

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Re: What steps can a citizen take to save America?
« Reply #25 on: December 23, 2009, 05:03:17 PM »
I have posted on this elsewhere, and I've dlegated this article to sone of our site writers verse in this very issue.

The short answer is this.

Political Parties are NOT supposed to be the defining source for relevant issues. Positions on issues comes from individual perspective, NOT group mandates.

To that end, people think of others in the context of their political affiliation, and NOT with their individual position on issues. THIS IS KEY.

For years, I have not thought in the context of "Democrat" vs. "Republican." I've thought in terms of "Totalitarianism" vs. "Capitalism." In addition, there are two main subset scales that are rarely considered, which are "social" and "economic."

When looked in this context, I think: What is the best way I can advance my own internal agenda with as many people as possible?

The hodgepodge comes in our plurality requirement for election, as opposed to requring a majority in a multiple party race. To that end, a third party becomes an EMOTION-based distraction. For instance, there are three major presidential elections that have, in effect, been decided by active third party action:

1. The 1912 Presidential election: Theodore Roosevelt, a classically libertarian/conservative president, was a former two-term president from 1901-1908. He was very concerned that his hand-picked successor, William Howard Taft, was so awful as a president. Roosevelt could not displace Taft off the republican ticket, so he ran as a third party called "The Progressive Party." This party has absolutely zero connection with the current statist "progressive" movement, by the way. It was also nicknamed the "Bull Moose" party as well. Anyway, Woodrow Wilson won the presidency with less than 42 percent of the vote. Together, Roosevelt (27%) and Taft (23%) garnered 50% of the vote; certainly most of that vote would have gone to Taft had Roosevelt not been in the election.

2. The 1992 Presidential election: We all know what happened. Ross Perot came out with the "Reform" party, and got 19% of the vote, while GWH Bush got 38%. Arguably, people who voted for Perot were dissatisfied with Bush's performance, but exit polls would have given enough votes for Bush had Perot not been in the race to win comfortably.

3. While the Green Party didn't have a significant effect on a national basis, the 100,000 votes that Ralph Nader received in Floriday would unquestionably have gone to Al Gore by a large margin. Certainly, 70,000 more votes would have gone to him, and he would have easily won Florida and the presidency.

In all three cases, the effect of a third party candidate prevented the mainstream (ie, republican or democrat) candidate most affiliated with the third party, and led to the election of the OPPOSITE party.

Many people call this a problem with the current system. Frankly, I agree to an extent; I actually believe runoff elections should be mandated if more than two candidates are running in a race, and the votes come to less than 50%. But that is another matter.

The more pragmatic answer, though, is SEPARATE the POLITICAL PARTY ORGANIZATION with the POLITICAL PARTY ISSUES. This sounds a bit confusing, but it's based on something a bit more easy to understand about human nature, which is this: We don't always know what we LIKE, but we MORE than likely know what we DON'T LIKE.

So if we look to the Republican Party NOT as a political PHILOSOPHY, but as an ORGANZATION OF INDIVIDUALS who share common conservative and libertarian philosophies, then we can more easily understand the nature of how to address our concerns politically. In extension, the Democratic Party can be looked at as an organization that would negate our own philosophies; therefore, it is more important to unite in the NEGATION of such an action than it is to try to highlight unique attributes of OUR shared philosophy.

Think of it as this: Let's say a football team has a rift between two coaches. One coach wants to run all the time, the other wants to pass. But the IMPORTANT objective is not just to win the goal on whether the team should run or pass. The OBJECTIVE is to beat the other team...PERIOD! After the goal is achieved, THEN it becomes important to sift out the differences between the elements of the victorious team.

But if one of the coaches said, to hell with the other coach; I'm going to take players and start a THIRD team, then this would actually result in 2 teams being so denuded that the remaining team, the original opponent, would womp either of the two split teams. At THAT point, it becomes moot whether the original team could run or pass; neither team now has the wherewithall to do anything but to subject tot he whims of the oppressor.

So, the conclusion is this: We MUST be united in our fight against the statists. To that end, we need a SINGLE organization to muster our forces. That organization happens to be the Republican party. BUT... we don't have "Republican" principles. There IS no such thing, to be blunt. We have CONSERVATIVE or LIBERTARIAN principles. The key is to UNDERSTAND this VERY IMPORTANT POSTULATE, becuase this is NOT going to change.

I have it on good authority that the Democratic Party, probably instigated by Rahm Emanuel, will muster instigators to promote a conservative third party. In fact, this is probably a lot easier than trying to get everyone to defend the democrats. Of course, this will NOT get reported by the press, but if I were to look at a political election as a war, this would be the tact I'd play if I didn't have truth and rationality on my side.

But that's neither here nor there: We must STOP ALL PRETENSE that a third party will HELP our cause. It's easy to emotionally disconnect yourself from the process, but it ultimately bites you.

I'll have more on this later, but these are the basics behind the debate.
"The main purpose of the Democrat Party and the Left is to destroy the United States, transform Western Civilization to a tribal-based dystopia, and to ultimately kill all conservatives and non progressives." - Jonah Kyle

Offline Oceander

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Re: What steps can a citizen take to save America?
« Reply #26 on: December 23, 2009, 05:03:54 PM »
At this time, I believe the DNC & GOP are equally full of self righteous, self serving, corrupt bastards. I do not believe the DNC or GOP brand makes them what they are. They simply chose to become what they are. I would like to elect an independent or tea party candidate to represent me in Washington in the future. Unfortunately those brands don't guarantee honesty either. Greed and corruption will be present under those brands if we elect the wrong people. It is also a fact that we can stick to our guns and principles and vote for a new brand and then simply accept the fact that our vote will not mean anything except to us.

I think I prefer to vote for the best people I can find who have a hope of actually being elected to the office. I have to vote for the GOP for that reason. In my mind, it isn't the brand that is bad, it is the people in it. Even if you do stick to your guns and say the heck with the GOP and DNC, how are you going to decide who is a good, honorable candidate since the brand can't guarantee it?

txted



They may be, but then, that's probably because there's an underlying pathology which led them into the life of crime, I mean politics, which suggests that, no matter what ideology you're looking for, a politician is a politician, is a politician.  That, of course, means that it is utterly fruitless to go in search of some third-party politician who is going to be "different" because, under all of the pretty ideological wrapping, they are nothing more than a politician which, as we have already established, means that they have a pathological personality.

So, instead of hunting around for what isn't there, let's be realistic - politicians are, by and large, individuals who suffer from personality disorder - which means that, by and large, they have a pathological need to feel like they're the center of attention.  As such, they are amenable to being controlled by those whose attentions they seek with relative ease:  give them "attention" by writing to them often - at least once a week is the new habit I am trying to get into - reward them with nice words and praise "good boy, good boy!" when they do something correct, and punish them with hard words and opproprium "bad boy, ba-a-a-a-d boy" when they do something wrong.  If that sounds like housebreaking a puppy, then you're getting the idea.  If you want some more ideas, try watching some of the episodes of "The Dog Whisperer" - dogs and people are so remarkably similar, that most of what he has to say about training dogs applies, almost without modification (except for the leash, perhaps) to raising small children and controlling politicians.

Offline Oceander

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Re: What steps can a citizen take to save America?
« Reply #27 on: December 23, 2009, 05:07:36 PM »
I have posted on this elsewhere, and I've dlegated this article to sone of our site writers verse in this very issue.

The short answer is this.

Political Parties are NOT supposed to be the defining source for relevant issues. Positions on issues comes from individual perspective, NOT group mandates.

To that end, people think of others in the context of their political affiliation, and NOT with their individual position on issues. THIS IS KEY.

For years, I have not thought in the context of "Democrat" vs. "Republican." I've thought in terms of "Totalitarianism" vs. "Capitalism." In addition, there are two main subset scales that are rarely considered, which are "social" and "economic."

When looked in this context, I think: What is the best way I can advance my own internal agenda with as many people as possible?

The hodgepodge comes in our plurality requirement for election, as opposed to requring a majority in a multiple party race. To that end, a third party becomes an EMOTION-based distraction. For instance, there are three major presidential elections that have, in effect, been decided by active third party action:

1. The 1912 Presidential election: Theodore Roosevelt, a classically libertarian/conservative president, was a former two-term president from 1901-1908. He was very concerned that his hand-picked successor, William Howard Taft, was so awful as a president. Roosevelt could not displace Taft off the republican ticket, so he ran as a third party called "The Progressive Party." This party has absolutely zero connection with the current statist "progressive" movement, by the way. It was also nicknamed the "Bull Moose" party as well. Anyway, Woodrow Wilson won the presidency with less than 42 percent of the vote. Together, Roosevelt (27%) and Taft (23%) garnered 50% of the vote; certainly most of that vote would have gone to Taft had Roosevelt not been in the election.

2. The 1992 Presidential election: We all know what happened. Ross Perot came out with the "Reform" party, and got 19% of the vote, while GWH Bush got 38%. Arguably, people who voted for Perot were dissatisfied with Bush's performance, but exit polls would have given enough votes for Bush had Perot not been in the race to win comfortably.

3. While the Green Party didn't have a significant effect on a national basis, the 100,000 votes that Ralph Nader received in Floriday would unquestionably have gone to Al Gore by a large margin. Certainly, 70,000 more votes would have gone to him, and he would have easily won Florida and the presidency.

In all three cases, the effect of a third party candidate prevented the mainstream (ie, republican or democrat) candidate most affiliated with the third party, and led to the election of the OPPOSITE party.

Many people call this a problem with the current system. Frankly, I agree to an extent; I actually believe runoff elections should be mandated if more than two candidates are running in a race, and the votes come to less than 50%. But that is another matter.

The more pragmatic answer, though, is SEPARATE the POLITICAL PARTY ORGANIZATION with the POLITICAL PARTY ISSUES. This sounds a bit confusing, but it's based on something a bit more easy to understand about human nature, which is this: We don't always know what we LIKE, but we MORE than likely know what we DON'T LIKE.

So if we look to the Republican Party NOT as a political PHILOSOPHY, but as an ORGANZATION OF INDIVIDUALS who share common conservative and libertarian philosophies, then we can more easily understand the nature of how to address our concerns politically. In extension, the Democratic Party can be looked at as an organization that would negate our own philosophies; therefore, it is more important to unite in the NEGATION of such an action than it is to try to highlight unique attributes of OUR shared philosophy.

Think of it as this: Let's say a football team has a rift between two coaches. One coach wants to run all the time, the other wants to pass. But the IMPORTANT objective is not just to win the goal on whether the team should run or pass. The OBJECTIVE is to beat the other team...PERIOD! After the goal is achieved, THEN it becomes important to sift out the differences between the elements of the victorious team.

But if one of the coaches said, to hell with the other coach; I'm going to take players and start a THIRD team, then this would actually result in 2 teams being so denuded that the remaining team, the original opponent, would womp either of the two split teams. At THAT point, it becomes moot whether the original team could run or pass; neither team now has the wherewithall to do anything but to subject tot he whims of the oppressor.

So, the conclusion is this: We MUST be united in our fight against the statists. To that end, we need a SINGLE organization to muster our forces. That organization happens to be the Republican party. BUT... we don't have "Republican" principles. There IS no such thing, to be blunt. We have CONSERVATIVE or LIBERTARIAN principles. The key is to UNDERSTAND this VERY IMPORTANT POSTULATE, becuase this is NOT going to change.

I have it on good authority that the Democratic Party, probably instigated by Rahm Emanuel, will muster instigators to promote a conservative third party. In fact, this is probably a lot easier than trying to get everyone to defend the democrats. Of course, this will NOT get reported by the press, but if I were to look at a political election as a war, this would be the tact I'd play if I didn't have truth and rationality on my side.

But that's neither here nor there: We must STOP ALL PRETENSE that a third party will HELP our cause. It's easy to emotionally disconnect yourself from the process, but it ultimately bites you.

I'll have more on this later, but these are the basics behind the debate.

Hee, hee, someone else whose "short answers" are longer than most people's "long answers"!  Other than that, I tend to agree with most of what GOP has to say.

Offline GOP Congress

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Re: What steps can a citizen take to save America?
« Reply #28 on: December 23, 2009, 05:10:46 PM »
Quote
Hee, hee, someone else whose "short answers" are longer than most people's "long answers"!  Other than that, I tend to agree with most of what GOP has to say.

Actually, the short answer was in the single paragraph below, which is this:
Quote
Political Parties are NOT supposed to be the defining source for relevant issues. Positions on issues comes from individual perspective, NOT group mandates.

Then I decided to let my fingers do some dancing... :bow:

"The main purpose of the Democrat Party and the Left is to destroy the United States, transform Western Civilization to a tribal-based dystopia, and to ultimately kill all conservatives and non progressives." - Jonah Kyle

Offline Oceander

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Re: What steps can a citizen take to save America?
« Reply #29 on: December 23, 2009, 05:14:47 PM »
Actually, the short answer was in the single paragraph below, which is this:
Then I decided to let my fingers do some dancing... :bow:



Fair dinkum!  I frequently start off that way myself, although not usually with as much grace or wit as your piece has!

Offline Carl

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Re: What steps can a citizen take to save America?
« Reply #30 on: December 23, 2009, 05:22:52 PM »
As long as people believe they hvae only two choices, and are afraid of voting for the best candidate for fear of letting "the other guy win," then you are 100% correct...

How are you going to elect a true conservative in the GOP? Hell, the GOP won't even nominate them (district-23)...


It seems I hear the same people say "it's impossible to change" that I heard say "xxxxxx will never happen in the USA!" 

All I can say is that if you think there is a massive groundswell for a third party then you will likely be disappointed because there isn`t one nor has there been much success ever with third party or independent challenges.
Perhaps that is a bad thing and could be debated...however it is also the real thing.

Hopefully there is enough hatred of what is being done to this country to compel Republicans in 2010 to nominate and run conservatives but if the public isn`t there then  who knows.
Either way a third party isn`t going to be the alternative,don`t like that then sorry but it just isn`t.
I can`t change that and pretending otherwise isn`t going to either.

I am not sure if you are working up to saying that Libertarians as in the official party sense are going to knock Republicans into the abyss but that will simply never happen based on their party platform which is a confusing mish mash of liberal,isolationist and conservative ideas framed as a utopian hope.
It will not attract the large body of the public and never has so again if that is the point then sorry once more.

Offline GOP Congress

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Re: What steps can a citizen take to save America?
« Reply #31 on: December 23, 2009, 05:25:29 PM »
In reality, though, my biggest challenge I have to face is the fact that many conservatives have a visceral reaction to the word "republican." That is why my main focus is separating the structure (Republican Party) from the political philosophy (conservative/libertarian/constitutionalist). And that is the element that Rahm will be trying to exploit, more than anything, and in fact will be his most important objective in 2010. In fact, I've been reading some people on the left are so worried about this they want to suspend the elections. This will get more and more play all next year, and look for the media to start wistfully thinking along those lines.

Bottom line: We need to win under the Republican Banner BEFORE we can think of splitting. I sincerely believe that the TRUE American mindset, when rationality becomes key, is between Libertarians and Conservatives. But first things first...GET RID OF THE FREAKIN' STATIST TOTALITARIANS!
"The main purpose of the Democrat Party and the Left is to destroy the United States, transform Western Civilization to a tribal-based dystopia, and to ultimately kill all conservatives and non progressives." - Jonah Kyle

Offline Oceander

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Re: What steps can a citizen take to save America?
« Reply #32 on: December 23, 2009, 05:32:35 PM »
In reality, though, my biggest challenge I have to face is the fact that many conservatives have a visceral reaction to the word "republican." That is why my main focus is separating the structure (Republican Party) from the political philosophy (conservative/libertarian/constitutionalist). And that is the element that Rahm will be trying to exploit, more than anything, and in fact will be his most important objective in 2010. In fact, I've been reading some people on the left are so worried about this they want to suspend the elections. This will get more and more play all next year, and look for the media to start wistfully thinking along those lines.

Bottom line: We need to win under the Republican Banner BEFORE we can think of splitting. I sincerely believe that the TRUE American mindset, when rationality becomes key, is between Libertarians and Conservatives. But first things first...GET RID OF THE FREAKIN' STATIST TOTALITARIANS!

You couldn't be closer to the truth.  There are many faults and flaws in the GOP that, in the fullness of time, may require that conservatives leave to found an alternative; however, now is absolutely, positively not the time.  Right now is sudden death, and we need all hands on board, and everyone in triage mode; the order of the day has to be, "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" and not otherwise until we return the United States to a point sufficiently far from the socialist/communist precipice that we can afford to sit back and lose a few elections here and there while we sort out a new political realignment.  To attempt to do so now, however, is the surest path to letting the statists destroy the United States, at which point the whole exercise becomes purely academic.

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Re: What steps can a citizen take to save America?
« Reply #33 on: December 23, 2009, 06:38:57 PM »
 The reason the democratic party has been more successful than I want them to be in moving legislation forward is simple. They formed a coalition of politicians who are declared as everything from socialist to blue dog. It doesn't matter, they still get to operate and vote as democrats.

The republicans (my party) on the other hand are so busy trying to decide who to exclude from the party, they can't accomplish crap. The simple fact is we need everyone from avowed moderates to "hang em high" conservatives in the party in order to play like the democrats. At the end of the party (election), a head count is taken and the group with the most heads under their umbrella gets to nominate chairmanship of committees. Just in case you haven't noticed, the real work is done in committee. We need to control committees and we need people on those committees who will not sell out the citizens for an easy buck. I am a conservative Republican, but if you are a moderate Republican or just a conservative or libertarian; I hope you all join with me in 2010 to elect Republicans and nominate the speaker of the house (last trip home to the left coast for Nancy), nominate the Senate majority leader ( time for you to go home and reopen that nuclear waste storage facility Harry). We also can regain control of the house finance committee (go cry on your boyfriends shoulder Barney) and get rid of the scum in Freddy Mac and Fanny Mae. We can't do any of these things if we are still outside in the cold arguing about who has the right to call themselves Republican.

txted

Offline bkg

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Re: What steps can a citizen take to save America?
« Reply #34 on: December 23, 2009, 07:07:13 PM »
All I can say is that if you think there is a massive groundswell for a third party then you will likely be disappointed because there isn`t one nor has there been much success ever with third party or independent challenges.
Perhaps that is a bad thing and could be debated...however it is also the real thing.

Hopefully there is enough hatred of what is being done to this country to compel Republicans in 2010 to nominate and run conservatives but if the public isn`t there then  who knows.
Either way a third party isn`t going to be the alternative,don`t like that then sorry but it just isn`t.
I can`t change that and pretending otherwise isn`t going to either.

I am not sure if you are working up to saying that Libertarians as in the official party sense are going to knock Republicans into the abyss but that will simply never happen based on their party platform which is a confusing mish mash of liberal,isolationist and conservative ideas framed as a utopian hope.
It will not attract the large body of the public and never has so again if that is the point then sorry once more.

It definitely has to happen at a local level first. I'm not evening thinking of a 3rd party or non-party sweep in 2010. But unless we start sending clear messages that the status quo, which is exactly what you'll get w/ a Republican congress in 2010, is okay, then we're fawked. I may be off in my thinking, but you're off if you think 2010 is going to mean lower spending and smaller gov't. They had 6+ years of republican rule and did the exact opposite. What makes you think that past behavior nolonger predicts future?

Offline bkg

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Re: What steps can a citizen take to save America?
« Reply #35 on: December 23, 2009, 07:08:20 PM »
Bottom line: We need to win under the Republican Banner BEFORE we can think of splitting. I sincerely believe that the TRUE American mindset, when rationality becomes key, is between Libertarians and Conservatives. But first things first...GET RID OF THE FREAKIN' STATIST TOTALITARIANS!

Not saying you're wrong... but people also seem to forget what happened under republical rule last time... 40% increase in gov't. What makes ANY of you think it will be different next time? :confused:

Offline Duke Nukum

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Re: What steps can a citizen take to save America?
« Reply #36 on: December 23, 2009, 07:12:52 PM »
The number one thing is what Mark Levin and Rush Limbaugh have been talking about:  Become the "go to" person in your family and group of friends.  Be well informed and able to answer questions such as, "Why is it unconstitutional for the Congress to force citizens to by health insurance?"

Then, at election time, vote, get your family members to vote.  Offer to drive people to the polls if you can.

I can't pretend I am not upset and angry over the screw job that is happening but I keep hearing this still small voice:  "can you not see you have already won?"  So, I do my best to trust that.
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Offline Carl

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Re: What steps can a citizen take to save America?
« Reply #37 on: December 23, 2009, 07:27:58 PM »
It definitely has to happen at a local level first. I'm not evening thinking of a 3rd party or non-party sweep in 2010. But unless we start sending clear messages that the status quo, which is exactly what you'll get w/ a Republican congress in 2010, is okay, then we're fawked. I may be off in my thinking, but you're off if you think 2010 is going to mean lower spending and smaller gov't. They had 6+ years of republican rule and did the exact opposite. What makes you think that past behavior nolonger predicts future?

I don`t know if that will ever happen completely as a politician can get elected on ideals when there is passion but when not all they seem to have is bringing home the bacon.

This will get a bit long winded so forgive me.

I live in an area that is rural and the ag (dairy) economy is in the toilet.
Now if a candidate promised to bring back home all kinds of monies to further subsidize that will he get votes?...probably,even more so if he is an incumbent and has done it.
Party doesn`t matter at that point nor the fact that it is making the situation worse.

I don`t know the solution to that either so have to grit my teeth and bear it.
Just hope somehow that the pendulum will swing back quickly enough to stop some of the government takeover of our lives and want the best avenue available to do that.

Offline DefiantSix

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Re: What steps can a citizen take to save America?
« Reply #38 on: December 24, 2009, 10:47:12 AM »
Quote
Time for Drastic Measures
December 24, 7:46 AM
Macon County Conservative Examiner
Robert Moon

Now that we have been painted into a corner with the passage of this Constitution-trampling explosion of government, we have only 4 options left before things get ugly:

1) Vote them out in 2010. This option requires much patience and will not actually mean anything unless those elected actually reverse all the spending, bailouts and takeovers.

Most likely, Democrats will be punished for a few years while Republicans ride the tidal wave of public outrage into office, at which point they will throw us some symbolic scraps from the table, rather than making a serious commitment to uprooting federal tyranny. It is absolutely critical that we get actual conservatives into office and eject the RINOs in 2010.

2) Legal challenge in the courts. There is a chance that the Supreme Court could reverse this law based on the "Commerce Clause" debate (a few states being bribed and blackmailed into submission at the expense of all the others).

3) Nullification. This is where states stand up for their 10th Amendment rights and declare that, since this law is blatantly unconstitutional, they refuse to acknowledge that it was even passed.

And no, the Founders never intended for the federal government to be the sole determiner of the size and scope of its own power. State nullification was always intended as a natural check against federal encroachments.

4) Civil disobedience (the only option that requires no waiting). The politicians are now coming home to face their constituents. Escalate things by organizing a disruptive demonstration, like a sit-in.

While government creates 111 new federal bureaucracies and destroys the free market system that 84% of us are happy with, the politicians have exempted themselves from the rationed, inferior care the rest of us are left with. But they cannot exempt themselves from us.

As Thomas Jefferson wrote in the Declaration of Independence, when government becomes adversarial to the people, it is both the right and the responsibility of the people to rise up and "alter or abolish" that government. Government gets its power from us.

It is time to step up and take back what is ours.

An excellent editorial on the subject.
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