DUmmies discuss Venezuela-Columbia tensions - The Sequel

[Attero Dominatus]

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x2965329

seemslikeadream  Donating Member  (1000+ posts) Journal  Click to send private message to this author  Click to view this author's profile  Click to add this author to your buddy list  Click to add this author to your Ignore list      Wed Mar-05-08 10:59 PM
Original message
Colombia Faces Military Border Blockade from Venezuela and Ecuador
   
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http://www.commondreams.org/archive/2008/03/05/7490 /

Venezuela and Ecuador were today seeking to increase pressure on Colombia over a controversial military raid, as the region’s most perilous crisis for years developed into a test of diplomatic strength between their leftwing governments and the heavily US-backed administration in Bogotá.

Colombia, which faces thousands of freshly mobilised troops on its borders with both Ecuador to the south and Venezuela to the north, has attracted widespread regional condemnation for Saturday’s bombing raid on a rebel camp one mile inside Ecuadorean territory.

The attack killed at least 21 members of the Revolutionary Armed Forces of Colombia (Farc), including a senior commander, Raúl Reyes.

However, Colombia’s president, Álvaro Uribe, received strong support yesterday from President George Bush and hit back with a series of claims, including allegations of close collusion between Farc and the Ecuadorean and Venezuelan leaders.

Ecuador’s president, Rafael Correa, has already rejected a Colombian apology as insufficient. Today he was scheduled to meet Brazil’s left-leaning president, Luiz Inácio Lula da Silva, on the latest leg of a six-nation regional tour.

His next stop will be Venezuela for a meeting with the country’s president, Hugo Chávez, who has begun shutting down sections of Venezuela’s 1,400-mile border with Colombia to try to isolate its neighbour

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MaryCeleste  (228 posts) Click to send private message to this author  Click to view this author's profile  Click to add this author to your buddy list  Click to add this author to your Ignore list      Wed Mar-05-08 11:14 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. Then expect help for Colombia from the USN
   
The Tomahawks will fly...
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NCevilDUer  Donating Member  (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author  Click to view this author's profile  Click to add this author to your buddy list  Click to add this author to your Ignore list      Wed Mar-05-08 11:21 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. Yep. We'll rush right in to save the ass of the death squad supporting
   
narco-trafficker friendly Presidente of Colombia.

We'll show THEM what the war on drugs means.
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DadOf2LittleAngels  (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author  Click to view this author's profile  Click to add this author to your buddy list  Click to add this author to your Ignore list      Thu Mar-06-08 12:27 AM
Response to Reply #7
10. I honestly dont know how I feel about that...
   
Lets say there was a group of Americans making raids into Mexico, killing people, stealing, and then going back across the border... Lets say the US govt turned a blind eye to it...

Would you really fault Mexico for a surgical strike?

Its not all that simple..
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LynnTheDem  Donating Member  (1000+ posts) Journal  Click to send private message to this author  Click to view this author's profile  Click to add this author to your buddy list  Click to add this author to your Ignore list      Thu Mar-06-08 07:49 AM
Response to Reply #10
15. Yes.
   
I would indeed fault Mexico for violating another nation's sovereignty and international law.

I don't care who does it. It's illegal and wrong.
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DadOf2LittleAngels  (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author  Click to view this author's profile  Click to add this author to your buddy list  Click to add this author to your Ignore list      Thu Mar-06-08 09:15 AM
Response to Reply #15
16. But it is legal to harbor people who kill, steal, and destroy because
   
of political differences?
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sfexpat2000  Donating Member  (1000+ posts) Journal  Click to send private message to this author  Click to view this author's profile  Click to add this author to your buddy list  Click to add this author to your Ignore list      Thu Mar-06-08 09:49 AM
Response to Reply #18
19. Colombia just knocked off the guy who has been negotiating
   
the hostage release, and btw, has been trying to broker a peace agreement.

They did it on purpose, most likely with Bush's approval if not at his suggestion. And now the PR is being spun the other way.
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MaryCeleste  (228 posts) Click to send private message to this author  Click to view this author's profile  Click to add this author to your buddy list  Click to add this author to your Ignore list      Thu Mar-06-08 09:54 AM
Response to Reply #19
21. The fact that he was holding hostages doesn't figure into the equation?
   
FARC is a bad actor who does bad things. He was the #2 guy. That he was also negotiating with others for their release means he was holding them. Saying FARC wants peace is just silly. Not saying that it justified the raid, but quit trying to lionize him.
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sfexpat2000  Donating Member  (1000+ posts) Journal  Click to send private message to this author  Click to view this author's profile  Click to add this author to your buddy list  Click to add this author to your Ignore list      Thu Mar-06-08 10:17 AM
Response to Reply #23
27. No, that's wrong. In fact, the Pentagon made sure that their version
   
made it out first, complete with their client's fabrications.

It was a massacre. These people were shot in their sleep and those who tried to flee were shot in the back. Makes you proud to be an American.

And Chavez will do no such thing. That's also wrong.
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MaryCeleste  (228 posts) Click to send private message to this author  Click to view this author's profile  Click to add this author to your buddy list  Click to add this author to your Ignore list      Thu Mar-06-08 10:49 AM
Response to Reply #27
31. "soliders" attacked at night is not a massacre, its SOP in every army in the world
   
but it is a major breach of trade craft by those being attacked were all sleep. Not a lot of verifiable details have come out about it either. There have been claims of being US lead (cadre) and aided by US intel assets. Have to wonder if prisoners were taken or how many FARCs escaped. Raids like that one are rarely 100% effective.

Chavez has claimed in the media to have sent 10 battalions with armor to the border of Colombia, thats more than 10,000 soldiers. He is easily the largest military power in the region. He was not attacked, and the raid into Ecuador was ground troops, most likely less than 100 (single company). Something about disproportionate response. Colombia lacks armor, but if it they go defensive on home terrain, Chavez could be further embarrassed.

I still think the its better than 50-50 that there will be some sort of vengeance attack on Colombia. but I don't think its a certainty. Since Ecuador can't really do it, how Chavez will justify it will be interesting to see.
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sfexpat2000  Donating Member  (1000+ posts) Journal  Click to send private message to this author  Click to view this author's profile  Click to add this author to your buddy list  Click to add this author to your Ignore list      Thu Mar-06-08 11:00 AM
Response to Reply #31
35. Chavez has not been embarrassed. The United States and Colombia
   
have shown they do not want those hostages released. This was not a raid on FARC per se but yet another attempt to derail the process and it has been recognized as such by a number of countries in that region as well as in Europe and by several humanitarian organizations. If anything, this is another humiliating moment for the United States and their thugs in Colombia or it would be had they any shame.

With respect to details, I think the second link I posted above has visuals of the camp and the casualties after the attack.

Chavez is using economic means to push back:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

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MaryCeleste  (228 posts) Click to send private message to this author  Click to view this author's profile  Click to add this author to your buddy list  Click to add this author to your Ignore list      Thu Mar-06-08 11:25 AM
Response to Reply #35
47. His reactions to the claims made after the raid were not calm...
   
It will be interesting to see how is done with the "data" from the laptops purportedly captured, starting with if they are genuine.

Your comment on the reasons are one of several possibilities. The opportunity to kill a number of FARCs just to get them out of the picture is also a valid possibility. FARC and Reyes are not one of the good guys.

I have seen various reports about the raid, nothing really independently verified. Some of what has been published makes no tactical sense. Moreover there is significant variation among the reports. This is not surprising or an indicator of guile, but expected in a circumstance where there is governments control the scene and official accounts and eye witnesses are of various qualities.

10,000 troops with armor is economic? The economic efforts are also there, but the armor speaks louder. Chavez is the leading military power in the region. Also IIRC Colombia produces a lot of electricity used in Ecuador and other nations. That has to figure into it somewhere as well. Chavez could easily end up hurting Ecuador if things get really stupid.
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sicksicksick_N_tired  Donating Member  (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author  Click to view this author's profile  Click to add this author to your buddy list  Click to add this author to your Ignore list      Thu Mar-06-08 03:35 PM
Response to Reply #100
104. The BushCo propaganda found here is, indeed, mindboggling.
   
Maybe, people forget our own administration has an Info Ministry that out-does pretty much ANY of the most condemned of tyrannies?


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nadinbrzezinski  Donating Member  (1000+ posts) Journal  Click to send private message to this author  Click to view this author's profile  Click to add this author to your buddy list  Click to add this author to your Ignore list      Thu Mar-06-08 03:34 PM
Response to Reply #5
103. Who started this little fracas by sending their troops over the border to ECUADOR
   
Oh yes, COLOMBIA

The US is out of step with the OAC on this one... and so are you by the way
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MaryCeleste  (228 posts) Click to send private message to this author  Click to view this author's profile  Click to add this author to your buddy list  Click to add this author to your Ignore list      Thu Mar-06-08 03:42 PM
Response to Reply #103
107. I have not defended Colombia....
   
Edited on Thu Mar-06-08 03:48 PM by MaryCeleste
I said I expect Chavez to launch a revenge attack and am curious about how he will justify it
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[franksolich]

Oh my.

Doug's ex-wife distorting things again.

Nothing new.

[BEG]

Do they ever get tired of blaming America?

[Attero Dominatus]

Do they ever get tired of blaming America?

They have ever since DU started so no I do not see them getting tired of blaming America.

[dandi]

LMAO

FalconsRule is PWNING them:

FalconsRule (201 posts)      Thu Mar-06-08 10:16 AM
Response to Reply #12
26. Was he also a chief
 hostage taker?
 
 sfexpat2000  (1000+ posts)       Thu Mar-06-08 10:23 AM
Response to Reply #26
29. You do realize that compared with our own hostage taking,
 not to mention the Colombian government's when people are lucky enough not to be butchered outright,FARC looks like a bunch of peaceniks?
 
 FalconsRule (201 posts)      Thu Mar-06-08 10:55 AM
Response to Reply #29
34. Oh, ok.
 Sorry. I didn't know that it was ok for FARC to do it since others do. My bad.
 
 sfexpat2000  (1000+ posts)       Thu Mar-06-08 11:02 AM
Response to Reply #34
37. It's not bad, just hypocritical to criticize FARC when
 our own record is worse and when they were trying to RELEASE hostages.

 FalconsRule (201 posts)      Thu Mar-06-08 11:06 AM
Response to Reply #37
38. "Trying" to release hostages THEY hold...
 I'll help them...gather the hostages in a single location. Leave the area, call the Colombian government 12 hours later with the location of the hostages. There. "Trying" is over.
 
 sfexpat2000  (1000+ posts)       Thu Mar-06-08 11:11 AM
Response to Reply #38
40. The last time there was a release, the Colombian government
 FIRED on the hostages trying to get to safety.

It has to be done carefully so the Uribe government doesn't kill them and blame FARC. It's a good thing those people aren't relying on you for their safety.

You really don't get it. Uribe needs FARC to continue to get his brazilion dollars of your tax money. They don't want the hostages freed. 
 
 FalconsRule (201 posts)      Thu Mar-06-08 11:16 AM
Response to Reply #40
42. That's
 why FARC brings the hostages to a central location without telling the government until AFTER they have departed the area. They could even notify the press, and make sure they are on-site, to ensure a propaganda victory, even before they notify the government. FARC could release the hostages easily. They just don't want to.
 
 sfexpat2000  (1000+ posts)       Thu Mar-06-08 11:19 AM
Response to Reply #42
44. That's absurd. 
   
 FalconsRule (201 posts)      Thu Mar-06-08 11:20 AM
Response to Reply #44
45. Not at all.
 If FARC wanted to release the hostages safely they could. The choose not to.
 
 sfexpat2000  (1000+ posts)       Thu Mar-06-08 11:25 AM
Response to Reply #45
46. You are aware that they already have released some, aren't you?
 And you are aware that at several points in this process, the Uribe government has thrown wrenches in to slow everything down? Uribe outdid himself this time.
 
 FalconsRule (201 posts)      Thu Mar-06-08 11:26 AM
Response to Reply #46
48. Some is not all.
 The FARC would actually come of better if they were to release all their hostages. Sometimes it's good to have a little moral capital.
 
 seemslikeadream  (1000+ posts)       Thu Mar-06-08 11:41 AM
Response to Reply #45
53. South American "death squad" strategy during the Reagan years.
 South American "death squad" strategy during the Reagan years.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=dr_DpryPCks 
 
 FalconsRule (201 posts)      Thu Mar-06-08 11:43 AM
Response to Reply #53
54. Has no bearing whatsoever
 on the FARC releasing hostages today. But thanks for the link.
 
 seemslikeadream  (1000+ posts)       Thu Mar-06-08 11:45 AM
Response to Reply #54
56. oh of course not, history means nothing
 Edited on Thu Mar-06-08 11:45 AM by seemslikeadream
a bit of reading would help
 
 FalconsRule (201 posts)      Thu Mar-06-08 11:47 AM
Response to Reply #56
58. A. That was a video
 B. History doesn't prevent the FARC from releasing innocent hostages.
 
 seemslikeadream  (1000+ posts)       Thu Mar-06-08 11:49 AM
Response to Reply #58
61. I figured you may find it easier than reading
   
 FalconsRule (201 posts)      Thu Mar-06-08 11:50 AM
Response to Reply #61
63. Nope.
 I work differently than you...thanks for trying though.
 
 seemslikeadream  (1000+ posts)       Thu Mar-06-08 11:52 AM
Response to Reply #63
65. I read quite a bit
 I just figured you didn't
 
 FalconsRule (201 posts)      Thu Mar-06-08 11:53 AM
Response to Reply #65
68. I figured you were
 just projecting.
 
 seemslikeadream  (1000+ posts)       Thu Mar-06-08 11:56 AM
Response to Reply #68
70. Project this
 
http://www.buzzflash.com/articles/editorials/103

Torture, Murder, Bush, Kissinger and The Mothers of the Disappeared in Argentina: America on the Brink of Horror
 
 FalconsRule (201 posts)      Thu Mar-06-08 11:58 AM
Response to Reply #70
74. So relevant
 to the FARC holding innocent hostages...how could I have missed it?
 
 seemslikeadream  (1000+ posts)       Thu Mar-06-08 12:00 PM
Response to Reply #74
76. HISTORY SIR
 can not live or learn without it
 
 FalconsRule (201 posts)      Thu Mar-06-08 12:01 PM
Response to Reply #76
79. Actually, one can,
 especially when the history cited is not particularly germane to the topic at hand.
 
 seemslikeadream  (1000+ posts)       Thu Mar-06-08 12:04 PM
Response to Reply #79
82. You crack me up
   
 FalconsRule (201 posts)      Thu Mar-06-08 12:05 PM
Response to Reply #82
83. Oh, I'm way too late for that.
 
 
 seemslikeadream  (1000+ posts)       Thu Mar-06-08 11:59 AM
Response to Reply #68
75. It maybe a good idea for you to watch this
 I know it is so very difficult to watch a video but you really just may learn something


Brian Springer - Spin - A surreal expose of media-constructed reality.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-73441819534667... 
 
 sfexpat2000  (1000+ posts)       Thu Mar-06-08 11:45 AM
Response to Reply #54
57. Of course it does. We're still funding, training and arming
 criminal butchers and spinning their behavior to protect American investments. That is the context of this situation.
 
 FalconsRule (201 posts)      Thu Mar-06-08 11:49 AM
Response to Reply #57
60. And that gives FARC
 rationale for keeping innocents as hostages?

Relative moralism is such a wonderful thing.
 
 seemslikeadream  (1000+ posts)       Thu Mar-06-08 11:51 AM
Response to Reply #60
64. Did you ever hear the name Pinochet?
 
 FalconsRule (201 posts)      Thu Mar-06-08 11:52 AM
Response to Reply #64
67. Again
 nothing to do with FARC in Colombia.
 
 seemslikeadream  (1000+ posts)       Thu Mar-06-08 11:56 AM
Response to Reply #67
71. well there you go not learning from history...........
 again
 
 FalconsRule (201 posts)      Thu Mar-06-08 11:57 AM
Response to Reply #71
72. LMAO
   
 sfexpat2000  (1000+ posts)       Thu Mar-06-08 11:52 AM
Response to Reply #60
66. I'm not excusing FARC although you seem to want me to.
 Without our policy in Latin America, FARC would probably not have needed to develop a military wing in the first place.
 
 FalconsRule (201 posts)      Thu Mar-06-08 11:54 AM
Response to Reply #66
69. You are excusing FARC
 otherwise you'd agree that they should release their innocent hostages ASAP.
 
 sfexpat2000  (1000+ posts)       Thu Mar-06-08 11:58 AM
Response to Reply #69
73. FARC is not the obstacle here. n/t
   
 FalconsRule (201 posts)      Thu Mar-06-08 12:00 PM
Response to Reply #73
77. And you JUST can't bring yourself to condemn them
 can you?

 seemslikeadream  (1000+ posts)       Thu Mar-06-08 12:01 PM
Response to Reply #77
78. When did you become so very interested in South America?
 Edited on Thu Mar-06-08 12:01 PM by seemslikeadream
yesterday?

Or was that Feb 18th
 
 FalconsRule (201 posts)      Thu Mar-06-08 12:02 PM
Response to Reply #78
81. Latin America
 Areas Studies Major in college. Granted, that was a long time ago!
 
 seemslikeadream  (1000+ posts)       Thu Mar-06-08 12:06 PM
Response to Reply #81
84. Was that the School of the Americas?
 
 FalconsRule (201 posts)      Thu Mar-06-08 12:06 PM
Response to Reply #84
85. You funny, GI
   
 sfexpat2000  (1000+ posts)       Thu Mar-06-08 12:16 PM
Response to Reply #77
87. More absurdity.
   
 seemslikeadream  (1000+ posts)       Thu Mar-06-08 12:17 PM
Response to Reply #77
89. Is that our job?
   
 FalconsRule (201 posts)      Thu Mar-06-08 12:19 PM
Response to Reply #77
90. Obviously not. LOL
   
 seemslikeadream  (1000+ posts)       Thu Mar-06-08 12:20 PM
Response to Reply #90
91. It's worked out extremely well in Iraq, hasn't it?
 Edited on Thu Mar-06-08 12:23 PM by seemslikeadream
Afghanistan? Haiti? Belgrade? Somalia? Grenada? 

 FalconsRule (201 posts)      Thu Mar-06-08 12:22 PM
Response to Reply #91
92. Your non sequiters are the best ever
   
 seemslikeadream  (1000+ posts)       Thu Mar-06-08 12:25 PM
Response to Reply #92
93. I'm gonna try and make this really really simple for you, like a kids book?
 Edited on Thu Mar-06-08 12:25 PM by seemslikeadream
 
 FalconsRule (201 posts)      Thu Mar-06-08 12:26 PM
Response to Reply #93
95. Yes, by all means,
 use your preferred reading material. I'm sure you like lots of pictures.

Injecting that much common sense into the Hive is sure to earn him a granite cookie soon. Especially when he's going up against the head Chavez fellatress, sexlesspat.
 

[DumbAss Tanker]

Doug is one lucky sumbitch.

 

[Bondai]

Oh my.

Doug's ex-wife distorting things again.

Nothing new.

It's fun to watch her type and perform a Lewinski on Hugo at the same time...

[dutch508]

'HE WAS TRYING TO FREEE THE HOSTAGES!!!!'

He was holding them hostage.

"AND COLUMBIA SHOT THEM!!!"

Because they were holding hostages.

'AAAAHHHHHHHHHH!!!!! YOU SO STUPID!!!'

Have nothing to do with FARC taking innocent people hostage.

"ALERT!!!! FREEPER SCUM!!!! LIES!!!'

good Lord, they are pathetic. Someone invite the freeper over for cocktails.

[FlaGator]

Do they ever get tired of blaming America?

To Doug's ex-wife, everything is America's fault. If a tree falls in the woods and there is no one there to hear it, does it really make a sound? Yes, it screams that it's America's fault that it fell in the first place.