Author Topic: Is the Republic of United States Doomed?  (Read 6772 times)

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Offline rich_t

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Is the Republic of United States Doomed?
« on: November 01, 2009, 12:03:14 PM »
I ran across a Heinlein quote while rereading one of his books recently.  He says it better than I ever could:

Quote
"The America of today is a laboratory example if what can happen to democracies, what has eventually happened to all perfect democracies throughout history.  A perfect democracy, a 'warm body' democracy in which every adult may vote and all votes count equally, has no internal feedback for self-correction.  It depends solely on the wisdom and self-restaint of citizens... which is opposed by the folly and lack of  self-restraint of other citizens.  What is supposed to happen in a democracy is that each soveriegn citizen will always vote in public interest for the safety and welfare of all.  But what does happen is that he votes his own self-interest as he sees it... which for the majority translates as 'Bread and Circuses'.

Bread and Circuses is the cancer of democracy, the fatal disease for which there is no cure.  Democracy often works beautifully at first.  But once the state extends the franchise to every warm body, be he producer or parasite, that day marks the beginning of the end of the state.  For when the plebs discover that they can vote themselves bread and circuses without limit and that the productive members of the body politic cannot stop them, they will do so, until the state bleeds to death, or in it's weakened condition the state succums to an invader - the barbarians enter Rome."
[/b]

Heinlein published this particular book in 1985.

Do you folks agree or disagree with the above quote?  I agree with the quote, particularly the portion I bolded.

I am intersted in seeing what others think of the quote and the concepts it mentions.

« Last Edit: November 01, 2009, 12:45:40 PM by rich_t »
"The American people will never knowingly adopt socialism. But, under the name of 'liberalism,' they will adopt every fragment of the socialist program, until one day America will be a socialist nation, without knowing how it happened." --Norman Thomas, 1944

Offline Mustang

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Re: Is the Republic of United States Doomed?
« Reply #1 on: November 01, 2009, 12:29:11 PM »
Quote
For when the plebs discover that they can vote themselves bread and circuses without limit and that the productive members of the body politic cannot stop them, they will do so, until the state bleeds to death, or in it's weakened condition the state succums to an invader - the barbarians enter Rome."

As far as I am concerned we have two major enemies. Both Foreign and Domestic, equally as dangerous in its potential. Islamic terrorists and the Lord President Obamer.

If we don't defeat both enemies, by seriously bolstering our efforts on the WOT and defeating Obama, we will see the fall of Rome by barbarians again.

This is the reason I started my "the shit may hit the fan within 50 years" thread. Although it may come much sooner than expected.

Offline Rick

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Re: Is the Republic of United States Doomed?
« Reply #2 on: November 01, 2009, 01:20:40 PM »
Do I believe Heinlein as quoted, yes. Do I believe the Republic is doomed, no. I see a glimmer of hope, an awaking of the masses. Which could be affirmed in next weeks elections, and can only grow next year.

Offline rich_t

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Re: Is the Republic of United States Doomed?
« Reply #3 on: November 01, 2009, 01:34:15 PM »
Do I believe Heinlein as quoted, yes. Do I believe the Republic is doomed, no. I see a glimmer of hope, an awaking of the masses. Which could be affirmed in next weeks elections, and can only grow next year.

I don't share your optimism.  The current type of elected Republicans have proven that they aren't fit to lead either.  They controlled both Houses of Congress and the WH not too many years back.

What did they do with it? 

Did they repeal any liberal laws?  Nope.

Did they fix Social Security?  Nope.

Did they fix medicare/medicade?  Nope.

Did they pass any laws to help protect and defend citizen's liberties?  Not that I can recall.

Did they secure the borders agains the invasion of illegal immigrants?  Nope.

Both of the current major parties are merely opposite sides of the same coin.  Ultimately they are both about controlling the people instead of serving them.  They merely go about it using differetn tactics.  IMO.
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Offline LC EFA

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Re: Is the Republic of United States Doomed?
« Reply #4 on: November 01, 2009, 03:24:15 PM »
I don't share your optimism.  The current type of elected Republicans have proven that they aren't fit to lead either.  They controlled both Houses of Congress and the WH not too many years back.

What did they do with it? 

Did they repeal any liberal laws?  Nope.

Did they fix Social Security?  Nope.

Did they fix medicare/medicade?  Nope.

Did they pass any laws to help protect and defend citizen's liberties?  Not that I can recall.

Did they secure the borders agains the invasion of illegal immigrants?  Nope.

Both of the current major parties are merely opposite sides of the same coin.  Ultimately they are both about controlling the people instead of serving them.  They merely go about it using differetn tactics.  IMO.

Just IMO - but passing laws is not the way to defend liberties. Repealing laws is.

The republic in its present form may be in danger - because it has strayed so far from the initial design, but America will survive.

Four or even 8 years of totally incompetent leadership won't be the death bell. It will mean hardship and lots of work to get back on track.

Offline Mustang

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Re: Is the Republic of United States Doomed?
« Reply #5 on: November 01, 2009, 03:39:31 PM »
Four or even 8 years of totally incompetent leadership won't be the death bell.

I don't believe Obama is incompetent.
He and his administration have a deliberate radical socialist agenda, with him being the fascist narcissist head in toe.
What may appear to be incompetent or nitivete actions is actually someone who has a socialist vision of his narcissistic image and hope that has never tested this policy in any shape or form in a executive position. Obama was given the most powerful executive position in the world, he never did anything with his life except graduate Harvard and run for president and write 2 autobiographies before he was even in his mid 40's (narcissist much?). In his mind, he cares about making America in his own image, so that he may be immortalized. Ego and worship is to this guy as interns was for Bill.

Healthcare is the first wedge, it's a gateway of the oppressive future.
« Last Edit: November 01, 2009, 03:43:00 PM by Mustang »

Offline Rick

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Re: Is the Republic of United States Doomed?
« Reply #6 on: November 01, 2009, 05:38:37 PM »
I don't share your optimism.  The current type of elected Republicans have proven that they aren't fit to lead either.  They controlled both Houses of Congress and the WH not too many years back.

What did they do with it?  

Did they repeal any liberal laws?  Nope.

Did they fix Social Security?  Nope.

Did they fix medicare/medicade?  Nope.

Did they pass any laws to help protect and defend citizen's liberties?  Not that I can recall.

Did they secure the borders agains the invasion of illegal immigrants?  Nope.

Both of the current major parties are merely opposite sides of the same coin.  Ultimately they are both about controlling the people instead of serving them.  They merely go about it using differetn tactics.  IMO.

Ah, but with people like Hoffman we are not getting the the same Rino type. The man talks the talk, we need to let him walk the walk.

 
« Last Edit: November 01, 2009, 05:40:15 PM by Ranger Rick »

Offline nakedliberty

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Re: Is the Republic of United States Doomed?
« Reply #7 on: November 01, 2009, 09:24:22 PM »
I agree.  Even the hard working, tax paying members of society tend to vote for politicians that will grant them something that must be taken from someone else.  I don't know if it is inevitable, but in our multicultural, fractured society, gaining a consensus to stop the madness will be difficult at best.  I believe we are destined to eventually be a European style socialist state.  Not without some personal freedoms, but a shadow of what we once were.  Maybe we will be different in that most of Europe never had the level of freedom we once enjoyed (Heck, most of Europe never had the diminished freedom and liberty we enjoy today) and the genie is out of the bottle, so to speak and we will reverse course.  It will take a major change in direction and attitude and probably a leader on par with our greatest.

Offline deportliberals

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Re: Is the Republic of United States Doomed?
« Reply #8 on: November 02, 2009, 10:37:07 AM »
The founders were well aware of that reality and tried to warn us.  The father of our constitution(Madison) warned about congress consolidating power to build a welfare state and Ben Franklin gave the same warning you just posted above...quoting:

 "I agree to this Constitution ... and I believe, further, that this is likely to be well administered for a course of years, and can only end in despotism, as other forms have done before it, when the people shall become so corrupted as to need despotic government, being incapable of any other."

Thanks to 76 years of unchecked lib-fascism(democrats), we have arrived at Franklin's warning.

Offline BadCat

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Re: Is the Republic of United States Doomed?
« Reply #9 on: November 02, 2009, 11:20:12 AM »
This country is indeed doomed.

The current Communist in Chief is just the beginning, the real end of the country is coming as thousands of kids who were "educated" under No Child Left Behind hit the workforce.

There is an entire generation of complete idiots headed towards us and nothing can be done to stop it.
Help keep America beautiful...deface a liberal.

The Democrat and Republican parties are simply the left and right wings of the same bird of prey.

The road to freedom is paved with dead liberals.

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Offline nakedliberty

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Re: Is the Republic of United States Doomed?
« Reply #10 on: November 02, 2009, 02:34:47 PM »
This country is indeed doomed.

The current Communist in Chief is just the beginning, the real end of the country is coming as thousands of kids who were "educated" under No Child Left Behind hit the workforce.

There is an entire generation of complete idiots headed towards us and nothing can be done to stop it.

I'm not as concerned about compete idiots as much as I am the intelligent ones that indoctrinated into the Liberal way of thinking in our public schools. They are the ones that will do us in.

Offline BadCat

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Re: Is the Republic of United States Doomed?
« Reply #11 on: November 02, 2009, 02:36:42 PM »
I'm not as concerned about compete idiots as much as I am the intelligent ones that indoctrinated into the Liberal way of thinking in our public schools. They are the ones that will do us in.

They are indoctrinated...all of them.
And, there will be no engineers and scientists, no doctors...just a bunch of barely literate kids who thinks the world owes them everything.
Help keep America beautiful...deface a liberal.

The Democrat and Republican parties are simply the left and right wings of the same bird of prey.

The road to freedom is paved with dead liberals.

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Offline ColonialMarine0431

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Re: Is the Republic of United States Doomed?
« Reply #12 on: November 02, 2009, 03:04:35 PM »
What scares me is that most people believe we live in a democracy. WRONG. We live in a Republic. Major difference. A democracy is a system of mob rule. A Republic is a system of laws. Why aren't schools teaching this? Oh who am I kidding. The schools are run by libTURDs. Private school or military academy for my kids when I have them.
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Offline Eupher

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Re: Is the Republic of United States Doomed?
« Reply #13 on: November 02, 2009, 03:13:14 PM »
I think we're approaching the beginning of the end. Lord Zero won't actually sound the death knell for our country, but his antics will definitely have a hand in it.

I also think we didn't learn a damn thing from the folly of the bailouts and porkulus. That, and the further bailouts of GMAC and other corporations sucking at the public teat, will further complicate matters.

Despite the financial systems and safeguards that have been built into smoldering pile of shit called the Fed, I think our financial doom is closer than we think. The country, as we knew it, will gradually disappear.

In its place will be a country and bureaucracy very much akin to the Europeans.

It won't take long once that occurs. Complacency, laziness, and "what's in it for me?" are our watchwords and they will also spell our demise.
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Offline ColonialMarine0431

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Re: Is the Republic of United States Doomed?
« Reply #14 on: November 02, 2009, 03:17:32 PM »
Well said Eupher. I will remain optimistic, but prepared for the worst.
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Offline Chump

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Re: Is the Republic of United States Doomed?
« Reply #15 on: November 02, 2009, 03:32:31 PM »
Never underestimate the social upheaval resulting from financial collapse.  For all intents and purposes, the financial destruction occurring at the end of the Weimar Republic brought us Hitler.  This is not to make the daft argument that, "ZOMG HITLER IZ COMMING," but one could argue that he never would have had even the smallest foothold had Germany's economy not collapsed.

I'm of the Doom and Gloom crowd, personally.  We are in desperate financial straits in this country.  Witness the fact that since TARP's inception and the first bailouts, we've pumped (either through direct lending, balance sheet transfers, or outright printing) roughly 2.7 trillion dollars into credit and private financial markets...to maintain the status quo.  Consider that.  Ponder it.

It cannot continue, folks, no matter how much anyone would like it to.  You think we're angry over the current state of things?  Wait until the entitlement class stops getting their checks and gubmint cheese...

As for my family, we're heavily invested in lead, lead delivery systems, rice, beans, and jerky.  To each his own, but if you're not prepared for a major disruption in civil services and outright civil unrest, you're not doing yourself any favors.
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Offline BadCat

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Re: Is the Republic of United States Doomed?
« Reply #16 on: November 02, 2009, 03:34:55 PM »
What scares me is that most people believe we live in a democracy. WRONG. We live in a Republic. Major difference. A democracy is a system of mob rule. A Republic is a system of laws. Why aren't schools teaching this? Oh who am I kidding. The schools are run by libTURDs. Private school or military academy for my kids when I have them.

Reminds me of this quote...incorrectly attributed to Ben Franklin, but good nonetheless.

Quote
Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote.
Help keep America beautiful...deface a liberal.

The Democrat and Republican parties are simply the left and right wings of the same bird of prey.

The road to freedom is paved with dead liberals.

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Offline Mustang

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Re: Is the Republic of United States Doomed?
« Reply #17 on: November 02, 2009, 04:37:21 PM »
Never underestimate the social upheaval resulting from financial collapse.  For all intents and purposes, the financial destruction occurring at the end of the Weimar Republic brought us Hitler.  This is not to make the daft argument that, "ZOMG HITLER IZ COMMING," but one could argue that he never would have had even the smallest foothold had Germany's economy not collapsed.

We are headed towards that way until we got some serious fiscal responsible people in power. This country can easily become a third world country if left unchecked for awhile leading to global instability, mass poverty always leads to violence and war.

The stimilus package was the worst thing that ever happened to the United States domestic policy. That stimilus money created a lot of government jobs, when the stimilus money runs out, those jobs are still there and there will be only 3 choices:
1. cut the jobs (not likely)
2. go into deeper deficit
3. raise taxes

Creating an endless spiral of debt and/or taxation until you get rid of those positions.
And that "job growth" Obama keeps bragging about is all government jobs while the private sector continues to go down.
Obama is an ***hole who screwed this country in the worst way possible. I can't believe his job approval rating is 49%.
49% of Americans are obviously morons.

Offline bkg

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Re: Is the Republic of United States Doomed?
« Reply #18 on: November 02, 2009, 04:52:04 PM »
And that "job growth" Obama keeps bragging about is all government . I can't believe his job approval rating is 49%.
49% of Americans are obviously morons.

You sound like Bill Maher...

Offline Thor

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Re: Is the Republic of United States Doomed?
« Reply #19 on: November 02, 2009, 05:04:56 PM »
I've been watching a re-run of an 80s series, "V- The Visitors". I can see many parallels to today's America. I KNOW which side I'll be on.
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Offline Rebel

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Re: Is the Republic of United States Doomed?
« Reply #20 on: November 02, 2009, 08:05:54 PM »
Just IMO - but passing laws is not the way to defend liberties. Repealing laws is.

Amazing how much you know more about this country, as it was intended, than the DUmbasses.

You're on the wrong side of the Pacific, bro. We need to get you on the voter rolls.  :cheersmate:
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Offline Thor

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Re: Is the Republic of United States Doomed?
« Reply #21 on: November 03, 2009, 05:00:38 PM »
Just IMO - but passing laws is not the way to defend liberties. Repealing laws is.

Amazing how much you know more about this country, as it was intended, than the DUmbasses.

You're on the wrong side of the Pacific, bro. We need to get you on the voter rolls.  :cheersmate:

My sentiments exactly. :cheersmate:  There are others around here that would pass a law just because it didn't suit their particular beliefs. One can't just simply legislate morality or common sense. They DO try, though.......  :hammer:
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Re: Is the Republic of United States Doomed?
« Reply #22 on: November 03, 2009, 05:41:44 PM »
I've been watching a re-run of an 80s series, "V- The Visitors". I can see many parallels to today's America. I KNOW which side I'll be on.

Tonight is a series premier of V (2009)
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Offline vesta111

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Re: Is the Republic of United States Doomed?
« Reply #23 on: November 04, 2009, 10:02:46 AM »
We are headed towards that way until we got some serious fiscal responsible people in power. This country can easily become a third world country if left unchecked for awhile leading to global instability, mass poverty always leads to violence and war.

The stimilus package was the worst thing that ever happened to the United States domestic policy. That stimilus money created a lot of government jobs, when the stimilus money runs out, those jobs are still there and there will be only 3 choices:
1. cut the jobs (not likely)
2. go into deeper deficit
3. raise taxes

Creating an endless spiral of debt and/or taxation until you get rid of those positions.
And that "job growth" Obama keeps bragging about is all government jobs while the private sector continues to go down.
Obama is an ***hole who screwed this country in the worst way possible. I can't believe his job approval rating is 49%.
49% of Americans are obviously morons.

Think about this very seriously Mustang.  If America does in fact take steps backward to European life or become a 3 rd. world country, have you made any long range plans for you and your family.?

In case we missed it the world has shrunk, you know most if not all of us are not native Americans, Some may be decedents of those blacks, Chinese, or even white indentured servants brought here against their will.

For those that voluntary fled the home of their birth our ancestors, life must have been intolerable and they chose to run from their leaders into what they found was a world of freedom.

If God forbids and America changes to the point of that of what our ancestors fled from---Where do Americans go to start over.?

I tell you this gets spooky, a man arrives with no documentation to his former life.  He Wows the populace and becomes head honcho over us all.   Within a few  months he begins to ignore the law of the land, our Constitution and in some cases over rides our rights. From the wealthiest to the poorest.  I had no idea the President could fire at will people in the private sector. No idea he could intrude on my private health plan.

I believe we all love America for the freedom we have--we can make it or break it on our own. 

When or if America no longer stands for freedom and the right of choice, I will have to fight it out here, there is no other place I want to live, so far, but when my grandchildren get old enough to recite chapter and verse about any other way of life learned in Government run schools, then I may as my ancestors did, grab the family and find another life somewhere else. 

Some where there will be a push from the Government that goes too far.  I hate blood shed but it could possibly come to that.

Obama is like Samson who pulled down the pillars of his society.  He may actually believe in what he is doing, he may think he is the second Abraham Lincoln or Jesus, who knows.

It is us the people that have to pay for his mistakes, US who has to live with his decisions, his place in history has been made, Frankly I don't think he gives a damn what we and history will say about him, it is his way or no way---Classic sociopath.

Rant over, darn you guys get me a-going.




Offline rich_t

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Re: Is the Republic of United States Doomed?
« Reply #24 on: January 02, 2010, 11:48:40 PM »
What scares me is that most people believe we live in a democracy. WRONG. We live in a Republic. Major difference. A democracy is a system of mob rule. A Republic is a system of laws. Why aren't schools teaching this? Oh who am I kidding. The schools are run by libTURDs. Private school or military academy for my kids when I have them.

Ummm...  You might want to take a good look at how things have been in this country for the past few decades.

It resembles a democracy more than it does a republic IMO.

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