Barack Obama Would Take Back Vote Helping Terri Schiavo Avoid Euthanasia

[TheSarge]

It does?  NOW you tell me (think Groucho Marx).

LOL!

Unfortuneately even the relatively easy standards we have here are too much to hope for from the NU reject.

[Rebel Yell]

The husband wanted to do the right thing for the wrong reasons.
The parents wanted to do the wrong thing for the right reason.

Since watching my Grandmother basically starve last October, I understand now.  She had a living will right before she got Alzheimers, no feeding tube.  A little over 2 years later, she quit eating.  Just layed there and starved.  I asked her to just go, and I prayed for the lord to take her.  She didn't last 14 days though.  Mercifully ended over the weekend,

[Chris_]

The husband wanted to do the right thing for the wrong reasons.
The parents wanted to do the wrong thing for the right reason.

Since watching my Grandmother basically starve last October, I understand now.  She had a living will right before she got Alzheimers, no feeding tube.  A little over 2 years later, she quit eating.  Just layed there and starved.  I asked her to just go, and I prayed for the lord to take her.  She didn't last 14 days though.  Mercifully ended over the weekend,

Good synopsis -- the story about your grandmother is quite tragic.  You have my sympathies.

[Rebel Yell]

The husband wanted to do the right thing for the wrong reasons.
The parents wanted to do the wrong thing for the right reason.

Since watching my Grandmother basically starve last October, I understand now.  She had a living will right before she got Alzheimers, no feeding tube.  A little over 2 years later, she quit eating.  Just layed there and starved.  I asked her to just go, and I prayed for the lord to take her.  She didn't last 14 days though.  Mercifully ended over the weekend,

Good synopsis -- the story about your grandmother is quite tragic.  You have my sympathies.

It does make you loko at things differently once you've been through it.  If she didn't have a living will, I don't know what we would have done.  During the Schiavo case, I was all for leaving the tube in.  After going through that myself, I just don't know.

[DixieBelle]

^I think the only good thing to come out of Terry's case is that people realized the importance of making your wishes known in writing. It's never too soon to plan for the unspeakable. You never know when something may happen to you or a loved one.

My grandfather chose to end his life because he was fighting a really nasty form of cancer. He was sent home to die. It's still hard for me to deal with. In my mind, I know it was the right thing to do. He would have suffered and lingered and I still would have had to stand over his grave. It was all in the timing. So, I can understand why this case was so difficult for all involved.

[Chris_]

^I think the only good thing to come out of Terry's case is that people realized the importance of making your wishes known in writing. It's never too soon to plan for the unspeakable. You never know when something may happen to you or a loved one.

My grandfather chose to end his life because he was fighting a really nasty form of cancer. He was sent home to die. It's still hard for me to deal with. In my mind, I know it was the right thing to do. He would have suffered and lingered and I still would have had to stand over his grave. It was all in the timing. So, I can understand why this case was so difficult for all involved.

Interesting how different people approach this.  My wife and I had instructions filed with our lawyers years before the Schaivo case.   Both of us have DNR.  My brother OTOH has one that says "take any and all efforts to keep me alive no matter what."

And yes, this was sad -- but it bothered me how many so-called "Conservatives" decided they would pick and choose which laws to follow and which not to follow.  It made the entire Conservative Right look pretty hypocritical and wigged out, just like trying teach Creationism and the fascination with Holloway.

[Wretched Excess]

resorting to the legalistic argument is, quite frankly, a little lazy and thoroughly discredited in highly
moral cases like this one.  the fact that something is legal does not mean that it is therefore either
moral nor legitimate.  abortion is legal, for example, and the parallels between the schiavo case and
the moral argument against abortion are not merely coincidence.  there should be a standing legal
presumption in favor of defending innocent, defenseless human life.  period. 

and just to clear up a few odds and ends that have been misrepresented; it wasn't the state that
wanted to save her, nor was it a bunch of strangers.  it was her mother and father.  it simply isn't
that alien to hope that her direct family that wants to save her have some legal standing in a court
of law against her "alleged" spouse, who wants her dead so he can go on to the next mrs. schiavo
and save what money hasn't been "squandered" from her insurance settlement on her primary care.

and she was NOT dying.  her body was healthy.  she lived for 15 years after the respiratory and cardiac
arrest that caused her brain damage, and there is no reason to suspect that she wouldn't have lived a
normal lifespan if her husband hadn't gotten a court order to pull her feeding tube and kill her.
 

[Wretched Excess]

^I think the only good thing to come out of Terry's case is that people realized the importance of making your wishes known in writing. It's never too soon to plan for the unspeakable. You never know when something may happen to you or a loved one.

My grandfather chose to end his life because he was fighting a really nasty form of cancer. He was sent home to die. It's still hard for me to deal with. In my mind, I know it was the right thing to do. He would have suffered and lingered and I still would have had to stand over his grave. It was all in the timing. So, I can understand why this case was so difficult for all involved.

Interesting how different people approach this.  My wife and I had instructions filed with our lawyers years before the Schaivo case.   Both of us have DNR.  My brother OTOH has one that says "take any and all efforts to keep me alive no matter what."

And yes, this was sad -- but it bothered me how many so-called "Conservatives" decided they would pick and choose which laws to follow and which not to follow.  It made the entire Conservative Right look pretty hypocritical and wigged out, just like trying teach Creationism and the fascination with Holloway.

hypocrisy is a pretty slippery critter, as it turns out.  and of course, anything that contradicts the fragment or two of intelligible political or moral philosophy that you can get your head around must be "wigged out".

[DixieBelle]

^I think the only good thing to come out of Terry's case is that people realized the importance of making your wishes known in writing. It's never too soon to plan for the unspeakable. You never know when something may happen to you or a loved one.

My grandfather chose to end his life because he was fighting a really nasty form of cancer. He was sent home to die. It's still hard for me to deal with. In my mind, I know it was the right thing to do. He would have suffered and lingered and I still would have had to stand over his grave. It was all in the timing. So, I can understand why this case was so difficult for all involved.

Interesting how different people approach this.  My wife and I had instructions filed with our lawyers years before the Schaivo case.   Both of us have DNR.  My brother OTOH has one that says "take any and all efforts to keep me alive no matter what."

And yes, this was sad -- but it bothered me how many so-called "Conservatives" decided they would pick and choose which laws to follow and which not to follow.  It made the entire Conservative Right look pretty hypocritical and wigged out, just like trying teach Creationism and the fascination with Holloway.

I think being a Conservative means believing in the sanctity of life. Some people take that to mean all life, including those convicted of murder and given the death penalty. Personally, I support the death penalty and I'm pro-life. It's a wide spectrum, obviously. I also think it's very difficult to judge from the sidelines. The Shiavo case proved this. You had people from all walks of life and from all political leanings weighing in. I'm loathe to join into the "coulda, shoulda, woulda" crowd because illness and death are so personal. If I were not the granddaughter of someone who committed suicide, I may be quicker to form an opinion. It's funny how personal experiences make you step back and re-assess all that you hold dear and believe in politically. I don't believe in Euthanasia because of the very slippery slope. But I'd be lying if I said that I didn't wish my grandfather could have gone more peacefully than his chosen method. These are not black and white issues for some people.

When the Shiavo case was being played out, I kept hoping that the husband and parents would come to some sort of agreement. It was obvious that they wanted to be in charge of her medical care and that he had moved on in his personal life. A lot of people say he was just getting rid of a loose end and a lot of people say that he was following her verbal wishes and that the parents just couldn't let go....sadly, we'll never know the truth. In these circumstances, the law is the law and years of legal battles confirmed that the husband had the right to decide. Regardless of disgusting that may have seemed to others. At the end of the day, this case was about one woman and her family. I don't think the govt should have intervened. I didn't like that precedent at all.

[Lauri]

The husband wanted to do the right thing for the wrong reasons.
The parents wanted to do the wrong thing for the right reason.

Since watching my Grandmother basically starve last October, I understand now.  She had a living will right before she got Alzheimers, no feeding tube.  A little over 2 years later, she quit eating.  Just layed there and starved.  I asked her to just go, and I prayed for the lord to take her.  She didn't last 14 days though.  Mercifully ended over the weekend,

oh that is so sad   

my dad spent his last month in hospice care in a gorgeous facility in Dallas, and even though he had morphine patches to ease the pain, the intake of nutrition and fluids was difficult for him.

but having some family member come in and force us to try and keep him alive would have devastated him and us.. i cannot second judge a family, both sides had their reasons and i could easily identify with either of them.

[Chris_]

I don't want to sound like I don't have any compassion for the terminally ill and the families who watch them suffer, because I do.

At the risk of sounding like a broken record, Terry Schiavo was not dying of a terminal illness, she was a disabled woman.  I feel that is what distinguishes this case from others that involve a terminally ill family member. 

[Rebel Yell]

I don't want to sound like I don't have any compassion for the terminally ill and the families who watch them suffer, because I do.

At the risk of sounding like a broken record, Terry Schiavo was not dying of a terminal illness, she was a disabled woman.  I feel that is what distinguishes this case from others that involve a terminally ill family member. 

You don't have to explain yourself, Schade.  We know you don't want anyone to suffer.  I agree that she was in no pain and not dying.  This is one topic where I do kinda straddle the fence.  It would be alot easier for me to make a decision on it if I thought the husband actually gave a damn about her.

[DixieBelle]

^no apologies needed shadie.

An autopsy revealed that Terry was severely brain damaged with no hope of recovery. I wouldn't want to linger in that state and apparently her husband thought she felt the same way. (His motivations, subsequent actions, and conflict with the parents aside.)

Yes, I realize there is a difference between "terminal" and "disabled". But in this case I think we all have differing opinions on the proper outcome. Obviously our personal experiences come into play. It's easy to say what should be done, until it's happening to you. In my family's case, we knew my grandfather was going to die. It was just a question of how long and how painful it would be. He was able to make his choice. Huge difference between the two cases. But it certainly made me think about Terry's case in a different light. But for the grace of God and all that......

It really can't be stressed enough: TELL YOUR LOVED ONES WHAT YOU WANT. PUT IT IN WRITING. MAKE IT LEGAL.

[Lauri]

I don't want to sound like I don't have any compassion for the terminally ill and the families who watch them suffer, because I do.

At the risk of sounding like a broken record, Terry Schiavo was not dying of a terminal illness, she was a disabled woman.  I feel that is what distinguishes this case from others that involve a terminally ill family member. 

that's true, but a really crucial point here is that nobody knows what she told her husband. most of us have had those conversations; "honey, just let me go.. I dont want to be a vegetable" ..

since we cant ever know what they discussed, or didnt discuss, it really is up to him, as her next of kin, to make the decisions.

if she was about to divorce the guy and people around her knew it, they should have spoken up and fought his role in her care.

it seems to me the parents, with their good intentions, made a really sad case, pretty ugly.

Terri was not going to get better or become independant again and I can only assume the husband knew that after ten years.. maybe he thought she had suffered enough?

i really have no clue.. but Congress getting involved in a private family matter was scary to me. I dont want them doing that on such an intimate level with Americans.

[Wretched Excess]

I really think we wind up losing focus when we attempt to use our personal experiences in
difficult and tragic circumstances such as these (and yes, I have had mine, as well) in an
attempt to gain an understanding.

ultimately, I don't think anyone is "qualified" to decide how much quality of life is enough life, and
who should live, and who should not.  and I honestly don't give a damn if there is a law someplace
that says that I can do so legally, and I am not sure if I give a damn if I have some document that
says that at some point in the past, my loved one in the coma said that he or she once thought
that they wouldn't want to exist like that.   

the issue itself is morally complicated beyond measure, and if we insist on dwelling on what is legal,
then we are missing the point entirely.

[Rebel Yell]

I really think we wind up losing focus when we attempt to use our personal experiences in
difficult and tragic circumstances such as these (and yes, I have had mine, as well) in an
attempt to gain an understanding.

ultimately, I don't think anyone is "qualified" to decide how much quality of life is enough life, and
who should live, and who should not.  and I honestly don't give a damn if there is a law someplace
that says that I can do so legally, and I am not sure if I give a damn if I have some document that
says that at some point in the past, my loved one in the coma said that he or she once thought
that they wouldn't want to exist like that.   

the issue itself is morally complicated beyond measure, and if we insist on dwelling on what is legal,
then we are missing the point entirely.

I don't think it was a coincidence that alot of the strongest arguments for pulling the tube came from the same people who give the strongest arguments for abortion, if I remember correctly.

[Wretched Excess]

I really think we wind up losing focus when we attempt to use our personal experiences in
difficult and tragic circumstances such as these (and yes, I have had mine, as well) in an
attempt to gain an understanding.

ultimately, I don't think anyone is "qualified" to decide how much quality of life is enough life, and
who should live, and who should not.  and I honestly don't give a damn if there is a law someplace
that says that I can do so legally, and I am not sure if I give a damn if I have some document that
says that at some point in the past, my loved one in the coma said that he or she once thought
that they wouldn't want to exist like that.   

the issue itself is morally complicated beyond measure, and if we insist on dwelling on what is legal,
then we are missing the point entirely.

I don't think it was a coincidence that alot of the strongest arguments for pulling the tube came from the same people who give the strongest arguments for abortion, if I remember correctly.

I wouldn't put it precisely that way, but it did tend to be the usual crowd of suspects, yes.

[Rebel Yell]

I really think we wind up losing focus when we attempt to use our personal experiences in
difficult and tragic circumstances such as these (and yes, I have had mine, as well) in an
attempt to gain an understanding.

ultimately, I don't think anyone is "qualified" to decide how much quality of life is enough life, and
who should live, and who should not.  and I honestly don't give a damn if there is a law someplace
that says that I can do so legally, and I am not sure if I give a damn if I have some document that
says that at some point in the past, my loved one in the coma said that he or she once thought
that they wouldn't want to exist like that.   

the issue itself is morally complicated beyond measure, and if we insist on dwelling on what is legal,
then we are missing the point entirely.

I don't think it was a coincidence that alot of the strongest arguments for pulling the tube came from the same people who give the strongest arguments for abortion, if I remember correctly.

I wouldn't put it precisely that way, but it did tend to be the usual crowd of suspects, yes.

Let's just kill all the helpless.

[Lauri]

I really think we wind up losing focus when we attempt to use our personal experiences in
difficult and tragic circumstances such as these (and yes, I have had mine, as well) in an
attempt to gain an understanding.

ultimately, I don't think anyone is "qualified" to decide how much quality of life is enough life, and
who should live, and who should not.  and I honestly don't give a damn if there is a law someplace
that says that I can do so legally, and I am not sure if I give a damn if I have some document that
says that at some point in the past, my loved one in the coma said that he or she once thought
that they wouldn't want to exist like that.   

the issue itself is morally complicated beyond measure, and if we insist on dwelling on what is legal,
then we are missing the point entirely.

well, while i agree with you in theory (that preventing the sick and the weak from mistreatment ought to be our primary focus) ... our country is one of laws.

and if we leave instructions to our spouses about our wishes, and the law allowes us the latitude to make those decisions, i'm not sure what else can be said.

[Lauri]

I really think we wind up losing focus when we attempt to use our personal experiences in
difficult and tragic circumstances such as these (and yes, I have had mine, as well) in an
attempt to gain an understanding.

ultimately, I don't think anyone is "qualified" to decide how much quality of life is enough life, and
who should live, and who should not.  and I honestly don't give a damn if there is a law someplace
that says that I can do so legally, and I am not sure if I give a damn if I have some document that
says that at some point in the past, my loved one in the coma said that he or she once thought
that they wouldn't want to exist like that.   

the issue itself is morally complicated beyond measure, and if we insist on dwelling on what is legal,
then we are missing the point entirely.

I don't think it was a coincidence that alot of the strongest arguments for pulling the tube came from the same people who give the strongest arguments for abortion, if I remember correctly.

I wouldn't put it precisely that way, but it did tend to be the usual crowd of suspects, yes.

Let's just kill all the helpless.

that certainly isnt anyone's attitude here.

this husband was lawfully allowed to make the decisions about his wife's care.

the lawyers and courts and Congress decided he also had that ability. unless you want to undo the spouse as the next of kin, then what else can the public do about this?

[Rebel Yell]

I really think we wind up losing focus when we attempt to use our personal experiences in
difficult and tragic circumstances such as these (and yes, I have had mine, as well) in an
attempt to gain an understanding.

ultimately, I don't think anyone is "qualified" to decide how much quality of life is enough life, and
who should live, and who should not.  and I honestly don't give a damn if there is a law someplace
that says that I can do so legally, and I am not sure if I give a damn if I have some document that
says that at some point in the past, my loved one in the coma said that he or she once thought
that they wouldn't want to exist like that.   

the issue itself is morally complicated beyond measure, and if we insist on dwelling on what is legal,
then we are missing the point entirely.

I don't think it was a coincidence that alot of the strongest arguments for pulling the tube came from the same people who give the strongest arguments for abortion, if I remember correctly.

I wouldn't put it precisely that way, but it did tend to be the usual crowd of suspects, yes.

Let's just kill all the helpless.

that certainly isnt anyone's attitude here.

this husband was lawfully allowed to make the decisions about his wife's care.

the lawyers and courts and Congress decided he also had that ability. unless you want to undo the spouse as the next of kin, then what else can the public do about this?

I wasn't talking about anyone here.  As I stated earlier, I firmly straddle the fence on this one.  I'm talking about the liberal moonbats who didn't give a  about the woman or her family.  The ones who use any excuse to lessen the value of life, just to further their own cause.

[Wretched Excess]

I really think we wind up losing focus when we attempt to use our personal experiences in
difficult and tragic circumstances such as these (and yes, I have had mine, as well) in an
attempt to gain an understanding.

ultimately, I don't think anyone is "qualified" to decide how much quality of life is enough life, and
who should live, and who should not.  and I honestly don't give a damn if there is a law someplace
that says that I can do so legally, and I am not sure if I give a damn if I have some document that
says that at some point in the past, my loved one in the coma said that he or she once thought
that they wouldn't want to exist like that.   

the issue itself is morally complicated beyond measure, and if we insist on dwelling on what is legal,
then we are missing the point entirely.

well, while i agree with you in theory (that preventing the sick and the weak from mistreatment ought to be our primary focus) ... our country is one of laws.

and if we leave instructions to our spouses about our wishes, and the law allowes us the latitude to make those decisions, i'm not sure what else can be said.

it is more than theory, and you're skirting the actual question .  what I am referring to here, is the philosophical antecedent to these laws.  something gave rise to the law;  it has a foundation beyond the mere fact that our elected representatives were the ones that happened to create it.

[Miss Mia]

I don't want to sound like I don't have any compassion for the terminally ill and the families who watch them suffer, because I do.

At the risk of sounding like a broken record, Terry Schiavo was not dying of a terminal illness, she was a disabled woman.  I feel that is what distinguishes this case from others that involve a terminally ill family member. 

that's true, but a really crucial point here is that nobody knows what she told her husband. most of us have had those conversations; "honey, just let me go.. I dont want to be a vegetable" ..

since we cant ever know what they discussed, or didnt discuss, it really is up to him, as her next of kin, to make the decisions.

if she was about to divorce the guy and people around her knew it, they should have spoken up and fought his role in her care.

it seems to me the parents, with their good intentions, made a really sad case, pretty ugly.

Terri was not going to get better or become independant again and I can only assume the husband knew that after ten years.. maybe he thought she had suffered enough?

i really have no clue.. but Congress getting involved in a private family matter was scary to me. I dont want them doing that on such an intimate level with Americans.

I hate to be walking in on this discussion late...

Laurie, that sums up about how I felt about the Schiavo ordeal when it was going on.  I felt for all parties involved but ultimately didn't feel it was right for the federal government to be involved. 

[Wretched Excess]

I don't want to sound like I don't have any compassion for the terminally ill and the families who watch them suffer, because I do.

At the risk of sounding like a broken record, Terry Schiavo was not dying of a terminal illness, she was a disabled woman.  I feel that is what distinguishes this case from others that involve a terminally ill family member. 

that's true, but a really crucial point here is that nobody knows what she told her husband. most of us have had those conversations; "honey, just let me go.. I dont want to be a vegetable" ..

since we cant ever know what they discussed, or didnt discuss, it really is up to him, as her next of kin, to make the decisions.

if she was about to divorce the guy and people around her knew it, they should have spoken up and fought his role in her care.

it seems to me the parents, with their good intentions, made a really sad case, pretty ugly.

Terri was not going to get better or become independant again and I can only assume the husband knew that after ten years.. maybe he thought she had suffered enough?

i really have no clue.. but Congress getting involved in a private family matter was scary to me. I dont want them doing that on such an intimate level with Americans.

I hate to be walking in on this discussion late...

Laurie, that sums up about how I felt about the Schiavo ordeal when it was going on.  I felt for all parties involved but ultimately didn't feel it was right for the federal government to be involved. 

I refuse to feel about this issue.  feeling about situations of this nature won't help you understand them.

[Chris_]

I refuse to feel about this issue.  feeling about situations of this nature won't help you understand them.

Well, mine was a pretty complete analysis.  The spouse had the legal and moral right to make the decision he did.  He said that Terri told him what her final wishes were and there is no one to say otherwise.  The fact people didn't like him or his actions doesn't trump the fundamental underlying standards.

I am not really going to come back to this (unless someone PMs me and requests it).  It is clearly going in circles and nothing said has undermined my arguments.