Senator Edward Kennedy dies at age 77

[Randy]

It was really nice to hear ABC's World News Now this morning. They were telling the truth about Teddy. They mentioned his nick-name repeatedly, it seemed like every other sentence.

Ted Kennedy: The Liberal, Lyin' in the Senate.


Just hurry up & bury his worthless old ass. I'm like Frank, tired of hearing about him already.

[Chris_]

It is going to be on the news for quiet a while look how long they have drawn out the Jackson soap opera God knows how long they will for this pos!!

[Chris_]

Cue the Breck Girl - with tears in his eyes - whining about how The Lyin' (Bastard) of the Senate would still be alive, if only we had socialized health care, in 3... 2... 1...

[ironhorsedriver]

I'm sure all the networks will preempt all broadcasting for the funeral and gushing eulogy. MSNBC, it'll make you sick seeing their broadcast today.

[Chris_]

I'm sure all the networks will preempt all broadcasting for the funeral and gushing eulogy. MSNBC, it'll make you sick seeing their broadcast today.

I'm going to need insulin just watching the Fox coverage - and I'm hypoglycemic by nature.

[TheSarge]

I'm sure all the networks will preempt all broadcasting for the funeral and gushing eulogy. MSNBC, it'll make you sick seeing their broadcast today.

It's gonna happen Saturday.  At Arlington National Cemetary.

I have thoughts on this but because I like my current rank I'm going to hold them to myself until I'm safely in my car on 395 sriving home.

[Chris_]

It's gonna happen Saturday.  At Arlington National Cemetery.

I have thoughts on this but because I like my current rank I'm going to hold them to myself until I'm safely in my car on 395 driving home.

Then I'll say it for you Sarge........this is desecration of hallowed ground.........

doc

[Airwolf]

Does anyone worry his funeral will turn into another Wellstone Memorial?

Worry No. Know that it will happen Yes. They won't pass the oppertunity up if you have seen the sewage they spewed forth on the media already for the late not so great Ted "The Fat Bastard" Kennedy. I mean al of those things he supposedly did to benefit all americans was more likly driven by his guilt after killing another human being and his ego that wouldn't let him resign in disgrace  . His excapades in DC and elsewhere are the stuff of legend. How his first wife let him get away with it is beyond me. If she was smart she should have tanked his fat ass after the USS Oldsmobile went down with Mary Jo.l

[Airwolf]

It's gonna happen Saturday.  At Arlington National Cemetary.

I have thoughts on this but because I like my current rank I'm going to hold them to myself until I'm safely in my car on 395 sriving home.

I think we could safly say that your thoughts and mine are almost the same on the wasted effort to plant his ass there.

[Peter3_1]

tvdoc,

Yes, when you can see ground , and the difference between it and the sky by looking down, you can orient the aircraft so the artificial horizon is in some semblence of order and can get back into level flight. Then call for HELP.
Yes a screw up in an aircraft is awfully final. Nigel Young , a WW2 Battle of Britian fighter pilot was taking photo's from the Ocean Side of some real estate.  It was January, he was low, and frightened a flock of seaguls into the air. At least one came thru the windscreen. He tried to gain altitude and clear his vision, called in his dilema, could not clear his vision and crashed hard into the ocean.

Two years later his replacement hip joint was found by a Beachcomber....

[USA4ME]

JFK Jr. has an accidental crash. Back in the day, I flew amall planes fron the East Hampton Airport to Block Island to New London Ct. . When the ground fog, very thin, starts as the sun sets, you c an easily lose the visual horizon. If you are not on the instruments before you lose the horizon, you can misread the artifical horizon. If you correct the wrong way, the indicators can wind up in a jumble in one corner of the instrument, you feel level, but you are augering in.

He had NO instrument rating only VFR, but should have flown IFR anyway, and let the FAA check, if they chose, after you are safe on the ground. I flew, with a certified pilot, from EH Airport to West Palm at night IFR all the way and no one ever even asked how we were rated.

Remember, there are old pilots, there are bold pilots, but there are no old bold pilots!

And had he arrived and had to actually fly the instrument approach, what's he going to do?

Even in my training and right up to my checkride I wouldn't have dared to file IFR before I got my ticket.  You're just asking for trouble.

.

[Chris_]

tvdoc,

Yes, when you can see ground , and the difference between it and the sky by looking down, you can orient the aircraft so the artificial horizon is in some semblence of order and can get back into level flight. Then call for HELP.
Yes a screw up in an aircraft is awfully final. Nigel Young , a WW2 Battle of Britian fighter pilot was taking photo's from the Ocean Side of some real estate.  It was January, he was low, and frightened a flock of seaguls into the air. At least one came thru the windscreen. He tried to gain altitude and clear his vision, called in his dilema, could not clear his vision and crashed hard into the ocean.

Two years later his replacement hip joint was found by a Beachcomber....

Being instrument rated, I'm aware of that, however, I read the NTSB report on the crash, and there are two important facts that were never well publicized on the incident........first:  There is no control tower at Martha's Vinyard, and second:  the winds were calm that evening.......therefore, he could have shot his apprioach from either direction to that runway.....why he chose to land with the ocean (and therefore no horizion reference) ahead of him, and not the lights of the island, will always be a mystery.  If he had landed in the other direction, the lights of the town would have provided him with a horizion reference even with the light fog that prevailed at the time.  I've done it more times than I can remember.  But I've got 12,000 hours in the left seat, and he only had 150, if I recall correctly.

The "official" cause of the crash was:  "Pilot error......continued flight in conditions that were beyond the pilot's level of training and experience, and failure to maintain airspeed/altitude on final approach........"  For obvious reasons, the press never mentioned that either when it was released a year or so later.

Even though I don't fly any longer (due to the advance of years), I still carry a card in my wallet that reads:
".......Maintain thy airspeed, lest the earth rise and smite thee........."  In Kennedy's case, it did......


doc

[Chris_]

And had he arrived and had to actually fly the instrument approach, what's he going to do?

Divert to another airport that IS VFR.........which is why you always calculate a fuel reserve for that contingency.......

doc

[USA4ME]

Divert to another airport that IS VFR.........which is why you always calculate a fuel reserve for that contingency.......

doc

Uh... that's not the point.  If you're gonna file IFR, you better be able to fly IFR.  John-John was not experienced enough to fly IFR, so to suggest he fly IFR is irresponsible.  Seems he didn't even know enough to flip on the auto-pilot when he got into trouble so to say he should have filed IFR and then if he got in the soup he should contact control and tell them he wants to cancel and fly VFR is just asking for trouble.

.

[Chris_]

Uh... that's not the point.  If you're gonna file IFR, you better be able to fly IFR.  John-John was not experienced enough to fly IFR, so to suggest he fly IFR is irresponsible.  Seems he didn't even know enough to flip on the auto-pilot when he got into trouble so to say he should have filed IFR and then if he got in the soup he should contact control and tell them he wants to cancel and fly VFR is just asking for trouble.

.

We are wandering far afield here......Kennedy was NOT instrument rated, and he didn't file a flight plan of any kind, therefore the issue of an IFR approach doesn't apply, he was VFR all the way, mostly over the water. 

Even if he were instrument rated, there is no ILS at Martha's Vinyard (at least at the time of the incident), so the published IFR approach was a VOR approach, with minimums that were only slightly less than VFR......seems to me that at that airport the approach minimums were 800 feet, and one mile visibility.......the conditions at the time of the accident were above VFR minimums........ceiling was scattered at 5000, visibility was 5 miles plus with ground fog.......he just blew it.....

doc

[TheSarge]

Remember, there are old pilots, there are bold pilots, but there are no old bold pilots!

Hey Peter...Chuck Yeager is on the phone...he'd like to have a word with you. 

[thundley4]

Hey Peter...Chuck Yeager is on the phone...he'd like to have a word with you. 

H5   

[USA4ME]

We are wandering far afield here......Kennedy was NOT instrument rated, and he didn't file a flight plan of any kind, therefore the issue of an IFR approach doesn't apply, he was VFR all the way, mostly over the water. 

Even if he were instrument rated, there is no ILS at Martha's Vinyard (at least at the time of the incident), so the published IFR approach was a VOR approach, with minimums that were only slightly less than VFR......seems to me that at that airport the approach minimums were 800 feet, and one mile visibility.......the conditions at the time of the accident were above VFR minimums........ceiling was scattered at 5000, visibility was 5 miles plus with ground fog.......he just blew it.....

doc

I agree, but realize what I said was based upon the statement "He had NO instrument rating only VFR, but should have flown IFR anyway."  Someone without an instrument rating doesn't need to be filing, much less flying, IFR even if the chance of getting caught is minimal.  To that we can no doubt agree.  Now if what he meant was flying in IMC conditions as though he had filed IFR and was following a flight plan, even more dangerous.

He got caught in spacial disorientation because he got in over his head.

.

[Chris_]

I agree, but realize what I said was based upon the statement "He had NO instrument rating only VFR, but should have flown IFR anyway."  Someone without an instrument rating doesn't need to be filing, much less flying, IFR even if the chance of getting caught is minimal.  To that we can no doubt agree.  Now if what he meant was flying in IMC conditions as though he had filed IFR and was following a flight plan, even more dangerous.

He got caught in spacial disorientation because he got in over his head.

.

OK....I misunderstood, and certainly agree.  Back in the days when I flew VFR, I would have never even thought of attempting a IFR approach.

I was taught that if you got caught in IFR conditions (as a VFR pilot) get your ass on the radio and let the controllers know, so that they can assist, rather than trying to go it alone......

doc

[USA4ME]

OK....I misunderstood, and certainly agree.  Back in the days when I flew VFR, I would have never even thought of attempting a IFR approach.

I was taught that if you got caught in IFR conditions (as a VFR pilot) get your ass on the radio and let the controllers know, so that they can assist, rather than trying to go it alone......

doc

No sweat, friend.  I figured either I wasn't clear and/or you misunderstood my point.

I know during my VFR training I did some work under the hood and learned enough that if I got into IMC to announce it to control and if possible do a 180 and try and get out the way you got in.

.

[Chris_]

No sweat, friend.  I figured either I wasn't clear and/or you misunderstood my point.

I know during my VFR training I did some work under the hood and learned enough that if I got into IMC to announce it to control and if possible do a 180 and try and get out the way you got in.

.

Roger that.......but I, at the time, made a bit of a hobby out of that particular flight, since, as a flight instructor, he did so many things wrong, I wanted to make it into a teaching moment.......just to refresh everyones memory.

.....he was in a big hurry to reach his destination
.....he was flying with a cast on his foot from an injury (a BIG no-no)
.....his route of flight was up the center of Long Island Sound, and over the Atlantic to MV, over water all the way, in a single-engine Piper, when he could have flown up the coast, and never been more than a few miles from any one of hundreds of airports.
.....he attempted an approach toward the ocean, when ground fog was reported, when he could have just have easily approached from the opposite direction (which was the way he was coming from initially), so he actually had to circle the airport to land in that direction.
.....he embarked on a long straight-in approach, instead of keeping his pattern tight, the runway in sight at all times.
.....He was attempting a night landing, (carrying passengers) with only 2 hours of night flying in his logbook.
.....He was flying an aircraft that he had just purchased a few weeks earlier, and there was no record of him having any instruction in that particular aircraft.
.....He failed to file a flight plan, therefore it was many hours before anyone knew that his flight was missing.


So many really dumb mistakes.......

doc

[USA4ME]

.. since, as a flight instructor,

I forgot you were a CFII.

.

[Chris_]

I forgot you were a CFII.

.

Not any longer.......but I was at the time......

doc

[formerlurker]

He loathed the military yet is being buried at Arlington.    Apparently no one in his family has paid attention to his commentary the past few decades.  

[thundley4]

He loathed the military yet is being buried at Arlington.    Apparently no one in his family has paid attention to his commentary the past few decades.  

If the dead could walk, they'd leave that place when he arrives.