http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=124x277127#277130Oh my.
Curious as if I've found some new writing talent on Skins's island, I decided to check out the Wal-Mart primitive. Maybe I've found some new writing talent, maybe I haven't; only time will tell, but with this, I have more doubts than I did before.
This bonfire is from about a month ago.
sfpcjock (266 posts) Thu Jun-04-09 05:36 PM
Original message
Where is the West Bank?
Bebe's gov't is completely opposed to a 2-state resolution at this time, but I am hopeful he will end this nonsense and be the strongman to make peace happen after the drought of Bush is over.
after which a series of maps, and then an anti-Semitic news article
cali (1000+ posts) Thu Jun-04-09 05:40 PM
Response to Original message
1. The Obama administration is doing a great job so far in standing firm against further theft of Palestinian land through settlement building and expansion. too bad, the Congress isn't supporting him.
armyowalgreens (1000+ posts) Thu Jun-04-09 05:43 PM
Response to Original message
3. Why aren't we talking about dissolving Israel?
I don't get this. Israel was formed by a biased UN resolution that screwed over all the original people of that territory.
Why don't we dissolve the state of Israel and create a new secular nation in it's place that encompasses the entire region?
I'm sick and tired of people wanting a two state two religion set up. From a secular point of view, that is ****ing ludicrous.
armyowalgreens (1000+ posts) Thu Jun-04-09 05:52 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. What's naive is thinking that creating a second state is going to fix anything.
You sound like my Zionist friend. "The people of Israel deserve the land as protection"
Bullshit. Right now they have a massive target hanging over their country. They are the source of much of the conflict in that region. People want their land back.
The Islamic citizens of the US have a very small political voice (smaller than a jewish people in a secular palestinian nation would have). Are you telling me they deserve their own country because of it?
The only real solution to this is creating a single secular state.
cali (1000+ posts) Thu Jun-04-09 05:57 PM
Response to Reply #7
9. look, the time to discuss whether Israel should have been created, is past
Nations exist or they don't, and it clearly exists. In the real world, Israel is a nation. The land behind the 67 borders is indisputably Israeli land. It's absurd to argue that its not. Your absurd question about Muslims in the U.S. has no relevance to the reality and history of Israel. You may hate that it exists, but exist it does. As Pema Chodron says, "Start where you are". Try it.
armyowalgreens (1000+ posts) Thu Jun-04-09 06:02 PM
Response to Reply #9
13. I don't think any nation should be formed under a religion.
As far as I'm concerned, the only way that Israel should remain a state is if they stop identifying themselves a a jewish state. That would most likely mean losing the name.
If that was the case, there would be no need for a second state. We could simply expand the state of "Israel" into all the territories.
In a secular nation, it shouldn't matter if one religious group is a minority.
cali (1000+ posts) Thu Jun-04-09 06:13 PM
Response to Reply #13
18. sigh. Israel wasn't formed as a religious state. Do some reading.
And Israel is not a religious state now. Sadly, the wingnut religious are gaining ground there, but no, it's not a religious state. Furthermore, what you think is irreievant. What I think is irrelevant. What matters are the facts.
The fact is that Israel is not about to relinquish sovereignity. A bi-national peaceful secular state is even more of a pipe dream than two states. This is not, my dear Candide, the best of all possible worlds.
Histroically speaking, the Jews have not fared well as a minority- even in purportedly secular states. That no doubt, plays into the reluctance of israeli Jews to become a minority. Now if they don't move toward a peaceful two state solution, they'll eventually find themselves in a position where they may well be forced to accept a one state solution, due to population growth of the Palestinians. That's a reality they'd be wise to deal with.
Now again, how many people are you comfy with seeing killed by forcing the dissolution of Israel. Why are you advocating that we launch another war? And no, there is no other way to dissolve Israel other than killing hundreds of thousands if not a million or more.
armyowalgreens (1000+ posts) Thu Jun-04-09 06:26 PM
Response to Reply #18
26. And you think that hundreds of thousands if not millions will die if we empower a group of people that already hate the state of Israel?
There is not doubt about it, many people are going to die in either situation.
cali (1000+ posts) Thu Jun-04-09 06:55 PM
Response to Reply #26
42. say what? that came out sort of word saladish.
Yes, hundreds of thousands will die if we try forcibly to dissolve Israel. No, it's unlikely that hundreds of thousands will die if there's a two state solution.
"Saladish" -- franksolich likes that word.
The loutish Brit primitive also comments, but never mind.
armyowalgreens (1000+ posts) Thu Jun-04-09 06:54 PM
Response to Original message
41. We should be moving towards a world of secular nations.
I never said that we needed to begin systematically dissolving all religious nations.
That would be ridiculously impossible to do.
In the process of fixing the worlds problems, one thing that must be addressed is the complications of having religious states.
Jim Sagle (1000+ posts) Sat Jun-06-09 10:19 AM
Response to Reply #13
66. The world is what it is. It's the height of ignorance to think a nation will disappear just because you disapprove of it.
Recursion (1000+ posts) Fri Jun-05-09 10:40 AM
Response to Reply #5
48. They did under the ottomans, and in andalus
Arabs don't have a history of oppressing and killing off Jews; that's Europeans you're thinking of.
All Europeans excepting of course the recursive primitive, who's pure.
cali (1000+ posts) Fri Jun-05-09 06:28 PM
Response to Reply #48
61. um, no. both Jews and Christians were 2nd class citizens under Arab rule. Yes, it was better than European opression, but of course it was still opression.
Recursion (1000+ posts) Fri Jun-05-09 10:21 PM
Response to Reply #61
64. Come on. The dhimmi system was the most enlightened one around
And a hell of a lot better than anything Jews or Muslims found in Europe.
Oh, I dunno, but whatever.
cali (1000+ posts) Thu Jun-04-09 05:49 PM
Response to Reply #3
6. why aren't we talking about dissolving.... us, the U.Sl
Everyone knows that the U.S. was formed illegally by colonists who stole the land of the original inhabitants and screwed them over to the point of genocide.
And do you actually think that Israel would go along with such a plan? What should we do if they don't? Should we also dissolve Saudi Arabia and Kuwait? They aren't exactly secular either.
Comments like yours are what get I/P threads locked in GD.
armyowalgreens (1000+ posts) Thu Jun-04-09 05:54 PM
Response to Reply #6
8. Native Americans/Canada/Mexico aren't attacking the US every day.
What a pointless comparison. The situations are completely different.
If there was still turmoil over US land, then I would suggest dissolving the US. But that's not the case.
armyowalgreens (1000+ posts) Thu Jun-04-09 06:10 PM
Response to Reply #10
17. I am for creating one secular nation.
The jews are welcome to stay as are any other groups of people.
The point is to exclude no one.
cali (1000+ posts) Thu Jun-04-09 06:14 PM
Response to Reply #17
19. sorry, this is just stupid. please deal with reality.
armyowalgreens (1000+ posts) Thu Jun-04-09 06:22 PM
Response to Reply #19
24. I'm dealing with reality. You are attempting to go around it.
The reality is that a two state solution is no solution at all.
cali (1000+ posts) Thu Jun-04-09 06:31 PM
Response to Reply #24
28. No. You. Are. Not. The fact is that we can't dissolve Israel.
YOU are the one suggesting that but you don't have either the guts or honesty to answer my question: How many deaths are acceptable to you in attempting to dissolve Israel?
I'm not sanguine about a two state solution, but I recognize that at this time, the only thing more unrealistic than a two state solution, is a single bi-national state.
armyowalgreens (1000+ posts) Thu Jun-04-09 06:34 PM
Response to Reply #28
30. My answer: As few deaths as possible.
If you are willing to look at the two state plan as merely a step in the right direction, I would be okay with that.
But the point is a two state plan is not the SOLUTION.
cali (1000+ posts) Thu Jun-04-09 06:42 PM
Response to Reply #30
34. The solution is whatever the Palestinians and the Israelis work out or don't work out but the U.S. going to war to dissolve Israel? Never going to happen and it's literally an insane and moronic suggestion.
armyowalgreens (1000+ posts) Thu Jun-04-09 06:45 PM
Response to Reply #34
36. The Israeli government DOES NOT want to work anything out.
The Israeli government, as far as I know, has been unwilling to even discuss a two state plan.
What happens when they are not willing to go along with the plan? Do we just step aside and let them do whatever they want?
cali (1000+ posts) Thu Jun-04-09 06:52 PM
Response to Reply #36
40. Agreed. the Netanyahu gov't doen't want to work anything out.
Hopefully, that gov't will not last long. And if they don't go along with a plan? I suggest that we work toward cutting off the billions and making them realize that they will not be supported militarily or financially.
The cali primitive would've cut off aid, such as it was, as meagre as it was, to Jews in Europe 1933-1945. In a second, the cali primitive would've shut it off.
shira (1000+ posts) Thu Jun-04-09 10:11 PM
Response to Reply #19
47. i agree......and if I keep reading some of the posts in this thread, I'll end up with a negative IQ
paulsby (1000+ posts) Thu Jun-04-09 05:59 PM
Response to Reply #8
11. with all due respect this has to be the most ridiculous argument i have ever heard. are you saying that the fact that there is turmoil, specifically violent protest over israeli land, but there is not violent protest over US land, that the former justifies dissolving the country?
iow, the violence justifies the dissolution?
armyowalgreens (1000+ posts) Thu Jun-04-09 06:05 PM
Response to Reply #11
14. Yes. It's called reacting to the situation at hand.
I don't give a shit about religion. I don't care about who had the land 60 year ago.
All I care about is the fact that a lot of people hate the state of Israel and attack it on a daily basis. And they really have pretty good argument for hating Israel. It just took part in a small genocide a few months ago.
paulsby (1000+ posts) Thu Jun-04-09 06:10 PM
Response to Reply #14
16. ok. i think that's an insane argument
but at least it's clear what you believe.
Home run for the paulsby primitive.
cali (1000+ posts) Thu Jun-04-09 06:20 PM
Response to Reply #16
22. it's called hate. frothing and all.
cali (1000+ posts) Thu Jun-04-09 06:19 PM
Response to Reply #14
21. a small genocide? dog, I hate teh stupid.
and hating any country is sick shit, dear.
armyowalgreens (1000+ posts) Thu Jun-04-09 06:21 PM
Response to Reply #21
23. I hate the government of Israel just as I hated the Bush administration.
It needs to go bye bye. I don't have a problem with Israeli people.
You should look up the tactics used against the palestinians when Israel bombed the living hell out of them earlier this year. The entire attack was meant to kill palestinians and destroy their way of life.
cali (1000+ posts) Thu Jun-04-09 06:28 PM
Response to Reply #23
27. yes, you have a problem with the Israeli people.
Suggesting that we dissolve their country over their objections, is having a problem with Israelis. Sorry, you can't have it every which way. And I'm well versed in the I/P siituation and history. I post regularly in I/P, and I've done a **** of a lot of reading from many perspectives. I completely oppose the attack on Gaza, the blockade of Gaza, the banustans of the WB created by settlements and the wall, as well as other actions. Unlike you, I understand that the situation is complex, and though Israel bears a greater responsibility and a greater share of the blame, the Palestinians have contributed to the ****ing mess, as well.
You are the one who evidently needs some education. And a little honesty might help too. You keep calling Isael, the Palestinians' land. It's not. Stop your hate, it's solves nothing and contributes only bad things.
armyowalgreens (1000+ posts) Thu Jun-04-09 06:32 PM
Response to Reply #27
29. I'll stop hating the Israeli government when they stop dropping white phosphorous rounds on schools.
If they made any proper concessions to the Palestinian people, I'd be a much happier person. But whatever they do give is half assed and they usually end up taking it back in the end.
We need to stop Hamas and we need to stop the Israeli government. They are both terrorist organizations that need to be dissolved.
Oh my.
Now, this is an enormous bonfire, and intensely interesting, the fisticuffs between the bitter old Vermontese cali primitive and the green immature Wal-Mart primitive from BadCat's neighborhood down in Arizona.
"Locking" until I get all the good parts posted here.
