The fundamental question that should be addressed about national Health Care Re

[MrsSmith]

WCGreen  (1000+ posts)        Sat Apr-04-09 11:24 AM
Original message
The fundamental question that should be addressed about national Health Care Reform is this:
 Is it ethical and or moral to put a profit center that offers nothing to the overall efficacy of the health care system between the provider and the patient?

Perhaps an even more precise question: is it ethical or moral to continue to let a profit center siphon off needed funds from the providers of health care that ultimately treated by the American Health Care System?

And since these questions are not even on the pre-agenda that will takes us to the proverbial table, why bother.
 
...LINK

msongs  (1000+ posts)      Sat Apr-04-09 11:34 AM
Response to Original message
1. you talking about parasites n leeches like blue cross etc? nt

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patrice  (1000+ posts)        Sat Apr-04-09 11:36 AM
Response to Original message
2. Absolutely right! People MUST start thinking about the effects upon PEOPLE of profit based decisions
 Edited on Sat Apr-04-09 11:43 AM by patrice
I think we need to develop public simulations of the sort that we used to use for discussing Nuclear Freeze proposals back in the 1970s.

Said simulations could be digital or staged with actual people and would walk an audience through the status quo care "plan" sorting that OCCURS NOW in profit based decision making systems, so they could see how more expensive and/or difficult pathologies are tracked out of the system permanently, as soon as possible, in order to protect profit margins. Then such simulations could do scenarios that project trends in the costs of care to show the effects on the care "plans" and subsequent sorting/tracking of people, without regard to outcome, but with regard to profits alone. People need to see this concretely.


Costs - NOT! PEOPLE! - ****ARE**** Absolutely Everything!!!!

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CaliforniaPeggy  (1000+ posts)        Sat Apr-04-09 12:02 PM
Response to Original message
5. You have put your finger precisely on the essential point.
 The profit center offers NOTHING but rewards to the people who work in that industry. And it steals from the rest of us.

It is an insane system that does nothing to alleviate the growing problems we have in our country in regard to health care.

Well said...

K&R
 

Isn't it funny how PEOPLE are the important part of healthcare that makes profit "illegal and immoral," yet they are perfectly content to throw those same people under the bus when it comes to cheap energy, trees, furry critters and any mention of self-defense for those same people?   


Edit to fix link.  Sorry.   

[Lord Undies]

Stupid people.  Stupid stupid people.  They really are dummies.

Like I've said a 1000 times, I want my "health care" to mean a profit for the private medical industry and never be a liability to the government.  Is that so hard to understand?

You know the great thing about the DUmmies' dreams?  It ain't gonna happen like they want it to happen, so they are going to remain miserable in their National Health Care Nightmare.  It is going to choke the Little Goons when they realize private health care will still flourish and the "rich" are still going to be 1,000,000 times better off than they are.

There's gonna be private hospitals that look like The Ritz and private clinics that look like The Red Door Spa....and the Little Goonie DUmmies won't even be able to get in the front door.

[Carl]

Stupid people.  Stupid stupid people.  They really are dummies.

Like I've said a 1000 times, I want my "health care" to mean a profit for the private medical industry and never be a liability to the government.  Is that so hard to understand?

You know the great thing about the DUmmies' dreams?  It ain't gonna happen like they want it to happen, so they are going to remain miserable in their National Health Care Nightmare.  It is going to choke the Little Goons when they realize private health care will still flourish and the "rich" are still going to be 1,000,000 times better off than they are.

There's gonna be private hospitals that look like The Ritz and private clinics that look like The Red Door Spa....and the Little Goonie DUmmies won't even be able to get in the front door.

Exactly,why they think that a person will go through the effort and expense to become a practitioner and then never see a reward as far as lifestyle goes is beyond me.
Christian missionaries make such sacrifices and DUmmies hate them for it.

I have yet to see anywhere an explanation of how malpractice issues falls into their dreams of seeing a doctor daily until they are excused for some reason from productive society.

What a rude awakening they are in for when the reality of their stupidity comes home to rest.

[Dragon]

What I'm waiting for is the, Weeping, Waling, and Nashing of Teeth, they will do in an emergency room.
Waiting for a cost analyst to be done, before they can be treated.

[thundley4]

What I'm waiting for is the, Weeping, Waling, and Nashing of Teeth, they will do in an emergency room.
Waiting for a cost analyst to be done, before they can be treated.

Just imagine when they are refused treatment because a cost/benefit analysis shows they aren't worthy of being treated, because they are a leech on society.

[delilahmused]

Actually, after hearing the guy from England, the fundamental question for me is...if I get breast cancer will I just be sent home to die like the women in Britain have to do? Who gets to decide what/who is worthy of treatment and what/who isn't? And if I'm forced to give up perfectly good medical insurance because everyone who is upper middle income and below won't be able to afford seeing doctors without insurance and the private kind won't exist anymore what incentive is there for my doctor to continue offering me quality care? Wouldn't "universal" health care or "single payer" (whatever the hell THAT means) have to set doctors' salaries in addition to deciding health care costs? Will I still be able to see a specialist if want, without jumping through government hoops? And how much is all this going to cost? Do I still have a co-pay? What about hospital stays? What about prescriptions? Will ALL prescriptions be covered or just the ones on the Walmart $4.00 list?

And just how is it that insurance companies are stealing from "the people" when in return for my monthly premium I get first-rate health care that I wouldn't be able to afford otherwise? And if we're so far in debt now that we're spending money that will have to be paid from the earnings of those who haven't even been born yet then how much will this add to it and who will carry the burden? I just want someone on the left to answer these questions just once. I think if my money is going to be stolen by the government I have a right to know.

Cindie

[MrsSmith]

Having been the dependant of an Air Force husband, I know that government healthcare is 180 degrees from private healthcare.  I've seen Air Force ER personnel spend more time yelling at someone for coming to the ER than treating them.  I had it happen to me, once.  I had an infection in one ear, it was hurting somewhat for a day or 2, nothing serious, then I woke up from a nap completely unable to balance.  I couldn't walk without assistance...so I went to the ER.  I had 3 different people yell at me for wasting their time when I could have waited until Monday.

I knew of a Sargent who took his son in for a hurt arm, they looked at it, but didn't X-ray it, and sent him home.  When it was still bothering the kid an awful lot a week later, he went back in to the pediatrician...the arm was broken...and had to be rebroken and set correctly.

Our oldest son once developed a swelling on his face.  We took him to the ER twice.  The first time, the doctor told us to put heat on it.  The second time, he wrote a scrip for oral antibiotics and scolded us for not putting heat on it...despite the fact that we'd done that.  When Monday morning finally dawned, we were first in line to see the pediatrician.  She blew up!!  She was going to turn us in for child abuse until we convinced her that we'd been in twice over the weekend.  She admitted our son, got IV antibiotics started...and went looking for the weekend doctor.  (I seriously would not have wanted to be that man.  )


This kind of stuff may happen, rarely, in private healthcare...but all hospitals and doctors know that patients are able to go elsewhere.  Even with the "evil HMO" or PPO, patients have the choice to switch doctors, go to different hospitals, get second opinions, make their own decisions.  Only idiots believe that a government monopoly on healthcare will be good for anyone...except the government (which will certainly find ways to spend any "profit" from the taxation to provide healthcare, just as they did for the taxation to provide retirement income.)

[happy1ga]

I am an Army brat, and when I was small, I had severe asthma. Of course, this is late 60's-early70's, and care wasn't great for asthma, anyway. My mother was in the Army hosp recovering from a hysterectomy when I suffered a really bad attack.  My dad, stupidly, instead of taking me to the local hosp, about 12 miles away, took me to the base hosp, 50 miles away. Then, when we got there, they dawdled around, and I nearly died! Also, when I was 14, I had to have my first two wisdom teeth out. No anesthesia, even though my teeth has super-long roots, and were wrapped around nerves. I got 7 shots in the roof of my mouth, and they had to chip and chisel the teeth out. Afterward, they made me stand in line for the script for close to an hour, wouldn't let my mom fill it, even though all the feeling came back in my mouth and I was actually lying in the line, moaning. I then couldn't get a clot to stay, and bled throughout the weekend. I blame my parents for not taking me, yet again, to the local hosp, but they always thought we should toughen up, you just didn't go to the doctor for minor things. I had to have surgery the following Monday morning, still no anesthesia, to split it all back open, clean out the sockets, and pack them with clotting material and sew them up. I waited until I was married at age 20 and had the next two teeth done, and had them done in the hospital, with an overnite stay. No problems.Thanks, Mr. HMO!

The other thing I wondered is, why doesn't anyone remember that over on the wanting to move to Europe thread, the one DUmmie wanted to move back to Canada, and they wouldn't take him, due to the drain he and his wife would be at their age on the healthcare system. Do they not understand that that is what the hell they are railing FOR? And aren't most of them 50-60 ish? Damn these people have no sense.

[MrsSmith]

Damn these people have no sense.

And there are so  many like them!!   

[SSG Snuggle Bunny]

What I'm waiting for is the, Weeping, Waling, and Nashing of Teeth, they will do in an emergency room.
Waiting for a cost analyst to be done, before they can be treated.

How about an environmental impact statement?

Before poor people can be treated on the government dole they should be required to submit a full accounting of the details of their life from the food they eat to the car they drive to how much electricity and manufactured products they use as well as their life expectancy vs potential productivity to determine the extent of their carbon footprint. Those who exceed acceptable levels will have to amend their lifestyles before being seen by a doctor.

After all, what is sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander.

[Karin]

Happy1, I'm sorry for your hellish experiences.  Jesus. 

The profit center offers NOTHING but rewards to the people who work in that industry. And it steals from the rest of us.

How can people really be that stupid?  Don't ANY of them have jobs they expect a wage from at week's end?  Do they really expect doctors to work for free?   Did nobody call them out on that? 

[Carl]

Happy1, I'm sorry for your hellish experiences.  Jesus. 

How can people really be that stupid?  Don't ANY of them have jobs they expect a wage from at week's end?  Do they really expect doctors to work for free?   Did nobody call them out on that? 

Uhmmmm......

[Chris_]

Happy1, I'm sorry for your hellish experiences.  Jesus. 

How can people really be that stupid?  Don't ANY of them have jobs they expect a wage from at week's end?  Do they really expect doctors to work for free?   Did nobody call them out on that? 

Generally, the job of most DUmmies is to be swine-like. They wallow in the mud and suck at the government teat.

The folks who work, especially the rich that the DUmmies loathe, provide the "milk" for the teat. This really makes things interesting as one of the DUmmies' biggest dreams is to wipe out the rich which would drastically cut the amount of "milk" available at the teat.

[MrsSmith]

Happy1, I'm sorry for your hellish experiences.  Jesus. 

How can people really be that stupid?  Don't ANY of them have jobs they expect a wage from at week's end?  Do they really expect doctors to work for free?   Did nobody call them out on that? 

No.   

[happy1ga]

Hey, my tale was just a small deal compared to what it will be like when we get a way worse deal than military care. If the government gives our boys and girls in unform crappy care, and they have a vested interest to keep them alive, then just imagine how a 75 y old woman that is obese, has a bad heart, diabetes, and is on dialysis, will be treated. Better say goodbye to grandma, really soon. Those arse holes at the DUmp should be flogged for what they helped bring on. I am truly sick of the people like them. I have health problems, too, and I refuse to bitch about the $32,000 a yr I have to pay for insurance. It sucks, but I see a doctor any day of the week I want, and rarely wait over 20 minutes. I'll pay as long as I am physically able to pay it. The DUmmies can go piss up a rope for all I care.

[Vagabond]

Military doctors misdiagnosed my knee so bad it wasn't funny.  If I tried to run, it would swell up.  You could literally poke one finger into one side of my knee and almost touch the other side.  The military doctors said there wasn't a problem. 

A civilian doctor was surprised I was still walking on it.  He scoped my knee twice to repair all the damage.  Yes, he made a nice profit.  My knee is good enough for me to run again, which is something the army docs failed to do.

[Chris_]

Dummies love to wail about "fixing healthcare", but have yet to define the real problem.  They haven't got a clue.

[MrsSmith]

Dummies love to wail about "fixing healthcare", but have yet to define the real problem.  They haven't got a clue.

To them, the real problem is that everyone isn't working for free.

To thinking people, the real problem is that legal issues have caused doctors and hospitals to throw tons of money at extra tests and crazy safety stuff to CYOA if something bad does happen.  We all know who pays for all the CYOA...insurance companies and their clients.