Ukraine: Pirates seize ship carrying tanks

[Airwolf]

Well I guess every message board needs somebody to cheer for the return of Communism.Looks like Donkey Dick is ours

[formerlurker]

Joining the alliance has featured on Ukraine's political agenda since 2002, when then-President Leonid Kuchma and Prime Minister Victor Yanukovych provided initial momentum. In 2004, the Yanukovych government adopted an official strategy aimed at joining in 2008. But the issue quickly bogged down in domestic tussles over whether to hold a national referendum on NATO membership. Such a vote has been championed by the current opposition coalition, led by none other than Yanukovych. His Party of the Regions, the dominant partner in the opposition coalition-it actually received the most votes of any individual party in the most recent parliamentary elections in September 2007-blocked all work in the parliament for several weeks in early 2008 until the government agreed to the referendum idea.

This fractious situation became more strained after 12 February 2008, when Russian President Vladimir Putin threatened to aim nuclear warheads at Ukraine if it ever should deploy NATO missiles on its territory. This provoked a fiercely critical response from U.S. Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice, who called the threat "reprehensible" and "unacceptable." Given the high political stakes, Ukrainian Prime Minister Yulia Tymoshenko is choosing to move cautiously.

The date of your Gallop (nonsense) poll is when exactly?    Given the makeup of Ukraine, a legitimate poll would indeed have to entail questioning a quite a large segment of the population which would expand over the entire country.   

Joining the alliance has featured on Ukraine's political agenda since 2002, when then-President Leonid Kuchma and Prime Minister Victor Yanukovych provided initial momentum. In 2004, the Yanukovych government adopted an official strategy aimed at joining in 2008. But the issue quickly bogged down in domestic tussles over whether to hold a national referendum on NATO membership. Such a vote has been championed by the current opposition coalition, led by none other than Yanukovych. His Party of the Regions, the dominant partner in the opposition coalition-it actually received the most votes of any individual party in the most recent parliamentary elections in September 2007-blocked all work in the parliament for several weeks in early 2008 until the government agreed to the referendum idea.

http://www.audiencescapes.org/component,8/action,show_content/id,40/

How can that be if the overwhelming majority of Ukranians are against joining NATO? 


The dates of your polls, the wording of the findings "disagree somewhat or strongly", the amount of population sampled -- all should cause you to take pause and question their worth.   It doesn't however and you are the only one who can explain that.

The Gallup poll was simply an example that demonstrated that polls never really sample the amount of people you seem to want them to sample.  It seems as though you want a poll of a huge percentage of the population, and if that it not done, then the poll isn't reliable.  Of course, I stated that in my previous post.

Yanukovych got that many votes for one simple reason.  The people of Ukraine really don't like Yushchenko much anymore.  It wasn't a vote on who wants or doesn't want NATO, since Yushchenko also wants to join it.  

You also seemed to ignore the other polls i posted...

You posted two polls, both with samplings that could very well be skewed given the makeup of Ukraine -- we have no idea which areas were tapped for polling.    You also have no idea how a person who was formerly under Soviet control would respond when Putin threatens to aim nukes at you. 

The timing of the polls is certainly questionable, as is the polling sample and the results as reported -- disagree somewhat means what exactly? 

I place no importance or meaning whatsoever on polls, and feel when you have to use them as the sole criteria to support your argument then you have no credible argument.

If the people of Ukraine are overwhelming against joining NATO, then common sense would dictate that Putin wouldn't be exerting so much energy to see that it never happens would he?  What does he care if Ukraine joins NATO?



 

[JohnMatrix]

Joining the alliance has featured on Ukraine's political agenda since 2002, when then-President Leonid Kuchma and Prime Minister Victor Yanukovych provided initial momentum. In 2004, the Yanukovych government adopted an official strategy aimed at joining in 2008. But the issue quickly bogged down in domestic tussles over whether to hold a national referendum on NATO membership. Such a vote has been championed by the current opposition coalition, led by none other than Yanukovych. His Party of the Regions, the dominant partner in the opposition coalition-it actually received the most votes of any individual party in the most recent parliamentary elections in September 2007-blocked all work in the parliament for several weeks in early 2008 until the government agreed to the referendum idea.

This fractious situation became more strained after 12 February 2008, when Russian President Vladimir Putin threatened to aim nuclear warheads at Ukraine if it ever should deploy NATO missiles on its territory. This provoked a fiercely critical response from U.S. Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice, who called the threat "reprehensible" and "unacceptable." Given the high political stakes, Ukrainian Prime Minister Yulia Tymoshenko is choosing to move cautiously.

The date of your Gallop (nonsense) poll is when exactly?    Given the makeup of Ukraine, a legitimate poll would indeed have to entail questioning a quite a large segment of the population which would expand over the entire country.   

Joining the alliance has featured on Ukraine's political agenda since 2002, when then-President Leonid Kuchma and Prime Minister Victor Yanukovych provided initial momentum. In 2004, the Yanukovych government adopted an official strategy aimed at joining in 2008. But the issue quickly bogged down in domestic tussles over whether to hold a national referendum on NATO membership. Such a vote has been championed by the current opposition coalition, led by none other than Yanukovych. His Party of the Regions, the dominant partner in the opposition coalition-it actually received the most votes of any individual party in the most recent parliamentary elections in September 2007-blocked all work in the parliament for several weeks in early 2008 until the government agreed to the referendum idea.

http://www.audiencescapes.org/component,8/action,show_content/id,40/

How can that be if the overwhelming majority of Ukranians are against joining NATO? 


The dates of your polls, the wording of the findings "disagree somewhat or strongly", the amount of population sampled -- all should cause you to take pause and question their worth.   It doesn't however and you are the only one who can explain that.

The Gallup poll was simply an example that demonstrated that polls never really sample the amount of people you seem to want them to sample.  It seems as though you want a poll of a huge percentage of the population, and if that it not done, then the poll isn't reliable.  Of course, I stated that in my previous post.

Yanukovych got that many votes for one simple reason.  The people of Ukraine really don't like Yushchenko much anymore.  It wasn't a vote on who wants or doesn't want NATO, since Yushchenko also wants to join it.  

You also seemed to ignore the other polls i posted...

You posted two polls, both with samplings that could very well be skewed given the makeup of Ukraine -- we have no idea which areas were tapped for polling.    You also have no idea how a person who was formerly under Soviet control would respond when Putin threatens to aim nukes at you. 

The timing of the polls is certainly questionable, as is the polling sample and the results as reported -- disagree somewhat means what exactly? 

I place no importance or meaning whatsoever on polls, and feel when you have to use them as the sole criteria to support your argument then you have no credible argument.

If the people of Ukraine are overwhelming against joining NATO, then common sense would dictate that Putin wouldn't be exerting so much energy to see that it never happens would he?  What does he care if Ukraine joins NATO?

Of course.  if you don't like what the polls say, just say they mean nothing. I guess we'll have to wait for that national referendum then, since polls mean nothing to you.  BTW i did post more than two polls, you just ignored the other ones...

[formerlurker]

On NATO? no you didn't.

You have not addressed the concerns I have on the polls, which is rather telling especially given your last post -- which is tantamount to a temper tantrum.

Ukraine is in a rather fragile political state presently with regard to the Kremlin's interference.  I am not optimistic at all that the elections will be free from corruption.    The national referendum you point to will hopefully represent a true reflection of the will of the Ukranian people.   

 

[RightCoast]

Faux is reporting that the USS Howard DDG-83 is on the scene and has the pirates in sight.  Holding for a USSR Russian warship to move into position.

[NHSparky]

All your tank are belong to us.

[JohnMatrix]

On NATO? no you didn't.

You have not addressed the concerns I have on the polls, which is rather telling especially given your last post -- which is tantamount to a temper tantrum.

Ukraine is in a rather fragile political state presently with regard to the Kremlin's interference.  I am not optimistic at all that the elections will be free from corruption.    The national referendum you point to will hopefully represent a true reflection of the will of the Ukranian people.   

 

lol, temper tantrum?  I just find it odd that you find polls to be meaningless.  What other way is there to gauge what the people feel on a certain subject that is actually cost effective?  You can't have a referendum for every issue all the time.

The "somewhat disagree" is just a standard answer for a survey.  I'm sure you've filled one out sometime gave you the option of saying "Strongly Agree, agree, neither agree nor disagree, disagree, or strongly disagree"

[JohnMatrix]

http://edition.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/africa/09/27/somalia.piracy.ukraine/index.html?eref=ib_topstories

(CNN) -- Pirates who seized a Ukrainian vessel loaded with tanks and weapons off the African coast have lowered their ransom demand to $5 million.

The pirates initially demanded $35 million and no military action, said Andrew Mwangura of the Kenya Seafarers Association. They decreased their demands for several reasons, Mwangura said.

Those reasons include that the crew is from eastern Europe and not the United States, the weapons the ship carries are secondhand, and there is no way to unload the tanks without coming onto land, he said.

The vessel Faina, flying a Belize flag, was headed to the Kenyan port of Mombasa after departing Nikolayev, Ukraine, according to Lt. Col. Konstantin Sadilov, spokesman for the Ukrainian defense ministry. He said it was seized by pirates Thursday not far from its destination.

According to the defense ministry, the ship was carrying 33 Soviet-made T-72 tanks, tank artillery shells, grenade launchers and small arms.

The weapons were sold to Kenya by the Ukraine, said Ukraine Defense Minister Yuri Yekhanurov, according to the Interfax-Ukraine news agency. He said that the entire shipment was contracted and carried out by Ukrspetzexport, Ukraine's state arms exports monopoly, and that it would know better exactly what was on board.

[formerlurker]

On NATO? no you didn't.

You have not addressed the concerns I have on the polls, which is rather telling especially given your last post -- which is tantamount to a temper tantrum.

Ukraine is in a rather fragile political state presently with regard to the Kremlin's interference.  I am not optimistic at all that the elections will be free from corruption.    The national referendum you point to will hopefully represent a true reflection of the will of the Ukranian people.   

 

lol, temper tantrum?  I just find it odd that you find polls to be meaningless.  What other way is there to gauge what the people feel on a certain subject that is actually cost effective?  You can't have a referendum for every issue all the time.

The "somewhat disagree" is just a standard answer for a survey.  I'm sure you've filled one out sometime gave you the option of saying "Strongly Agree, agree, neither agree nor disagree, disagree, or strongly disagree"

Somewhat disagree is not exactly writing it off is it?   I don't take stock in any poll and I care very little what the topic is as I think the sampling is always suspect.   Waiving off polls is not exactly a new concept, most hard core political junkies find little interest in polling results. 

Couple that with the timing and really, the polls coming out of Ukraine are just silly and meaningless.   

[TheSarge]

Here's a thought...something that would send a clear message to the pirates.

Blow the damn boat right out from under them.

That much ammo and other combustibles on board...we could see the glow from here.

The pirates would think twice about snatching another ship any time soon.

[JohnMatrix]

Here's a thought...something that would send a clear message to the pirates.

Blow the damn boat right out from under them.

That much ammo and other combustibles on board...we could see the glow from here.

The pirates would think twice about snatching another ship any time soon.

right, blow it up.  Who cares about the crew being held hostage on it?

[RightCoast]

Here's a thought...something that would send a clear message to the pirates.

Blow the damn boat right out from under them.

That much ammo and other combustibles on board...we could see the glow from here.

The pirates would think twice about snatching another ship any time soon.

right, blow it up.  Who cares about the crew being held hostage on it?

Screw the crew what about all the tanks??

[JohnMatrix]

Here's a thought...something that would send a clear message to the pirates.

Blow the damn boat right out from under them.

That much ammo and other combustibles on board...we could see the glow from here.

The pirates would think twice about snatching another ship any time soon.

right, blow it up.  Who cares about the crew being held hostage on it?

Screw the crew what about all the tanks??

the ship is not docking anywhere.

[JohnMatrix]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/7642978.stm

US surrounds hijacked tank ship

The US navy says it has deployed further vessels to surround a cargo ship loaded with 33 tanks and hijacked by pirates off Somalia last week.

A US navy spokesman said destroyers and cruisers surrounded the Ukrainian ship to stop the tanks and other weapons "falling into the wrong hands". He also cited reports that the cargo was meant for Sudan - and not Kenya, as claimed by the Kenyan government.

Pirates have said they want a ransom of $20m (£11m) to release the ship.

A spokesman for the US Navy's 5th Fleet, Lt Nathan Christensen, said the new vessels had been deployed within 10 miles (16kms) of the hijacked ship, the Faina. The Faina had already been surrounded by three warships, including the US destroyer USS Howard.

Another of the ships was from Russia but the nationality of the third was not clear.

[Crazy Horse]

Navy told by Somali govt to get some

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/7642978.stm
Another of the ships was from Russia but the nationality of the third was not clear.

Seems the Ruskies haven't gotten there yet

The Russian guided missile frigate Neustrashimy, or Intrepid, is not expected to reach the Somali coast for several days. However, the state-owned Russian news agency RIA-Novosti, quoting a high-level Navy official, says the frigate is carrying marines and special forces commandoes.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,431198,00.html

[JohnMatrix]

Navy told by Somali govt to get some

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/7642978.stm
Another of the ships was from Russia but the nationality of the third was not clear.

Seems the Ruskies haven't gotten there yet

The Russian guided missile frigate Neustrashimy, or Intrepid, is not expected to reach the Somali coast for several days. However, the state-owned Russian news agency RIA-Novosti, quoting a high-level Navy official, says the frigate is carrying marines and special forces commandoes.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,431198,00.html

it might take a while, it's coming from the baltic.

[Crazy Horse]

Navy told by Somali govt to get some

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/7642978.stm
Another of the ships was from Russia but the nationality of the third was not clear.

Seems the Ruskies haven't gotten there yet

The Russian guided missile frigate Neustrashimy, or Intrepid, is not expected to reach the Somali coast for several days. However, the state-owned Russian news agency RIA-Novosti, quoting a high-level Navy official, says the frigate is carrying marines and special forces commandoes.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,431198,00.html

it might take a while, it's coming from the baltic.

So in other words there's not a Russian ship on scene yet as the exerpt from the article you posted claims.

[mamacags]

This would actually be a great movie plot.

[JohnMatrix]

Navy told by Somali govt to get some

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/7642978.stm
Another of the ships was from Russia but the nationality of the third was not clear.

Seems the Ruskies haven't gotten there yet

The Russian guided missile frigate Neustrashimy, or Intrepid, is not expected to reach the Somali coast for several days. However, the state-owned Russian news agency RIA-Novosti, quoting a high-level Navy official, says the frigate is carrying marines and special forces commandoes.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,431198,00.html

it might take a while, it's coming from the baltic.

So in other words there's not a Russian ship on scene yet as the exerpt from the article you posted claims.

I don't know, it could be another ship.

[Crazy Horse]

Sorry..........I should have been more specific and said that their is no Russian warship onscene as the article suggested