Are we done with the hard line that it has to be NATO land

[dutch508]

Star Member boston bean (34,803 posts)
https://www.democraticunderground.com/100216436432

Ok. Are we done with the hard line that it has to be NATO land b4 we can engage?
Can we do what is right? It’s coming for us no matter which way we turn.

and just like that the DUmpmonkiez want an aggressive war...

Star Member doc03 (29,783 posts)

1. Biden said numerous time no troops to Ukraine. What if another NATO country

would go in would we have to enter then?

Progressive2020 (711 posts)

2. World War Three

If we go into Ukraine, we will be at war with Russia, a nuclear power. It would be World War. If Putin stops with Ukraine, World War might be averted. If he eventually goes after Poland or some other NATO country after Ukraine, then we will be at war. If Putin is crazy enough to attack a NATO country, he is probably crazy enough to use nukes. It would be MAD- Mutually Assured Destruction- an old Cold War term. So maybe we can avert World War.

Star Member boston bean (34,803 posts)

3. We are already there. People are in denial.

Star Member Treefrog (3,584 posts)

15. Nope.

I dislike me these doom posts.

I trust President Biden.

 

Progressive2020 (711 posts)

21. Agreed

Biden is an expert on Foreign Policy and has all of the Military experts around him. I trust him to do the right thing.

Star Member RussBLib (5,494 posts)

6. that is just an assumption

it's almost becoming knee-jerk.

If we shoot down a Russian plane, it's WW3.
If NATO goes in, it's WW3.
For all we know, strangling Russia economically could start WW3.

No one can predict the future. Predicting what Putin will do is a cottage industry.

Do the right thing and let the chips fall. Cowering in front of Putin seems no answer at all. We have much-vaunted Special Ops. Seems we could insert a few Special Ops teams and have them cause some serious havoc among the Russians.

It's very hard watching this gradual destruction of Ukraine and knowing that thousands are fleeing for their lives.

AngryOldDem (12,641 posts)

9. I'm tired of this argument.

“Maybe we can avert World War.” By trying to reason with a psychopath and deprive rich Russians of their toys? It’s clear Putin will not stop until he is made to stop.

As boston bean said, we’re already in WWIII.

Ukraine was promised when it broke away and gave up its nukes that it would be protected. What happened to that?

Star Member Happy Hoosier (3,923 posts)

10. So to be clear...

No matter the atrocities, no matter the human tragedy in Ukraine, you oppose intervention under any circumstances.

Progressive2020 (711 posts)

18. Intervention

We will supply money, weapons, fuel and food. We will absorb and protect Ukraine refugees. But we will not send US military forces into Ukraine. If we do, it is World War. We are not yet in a World War, but we are on the edge. If Putin stops in Ukraine, it might be averted. If he goes into a NATO country after Ukraine, then we will act. Right now we are on a razor's edge. It is not a good situation, but we must be very careful that it does not expand and become even worse.

Star Member Happy Hoosier (3,923 posts)

32. I don't relish the thought of nuclear war.

But neither am I willing to sacrifice Ukraine to Putin out of fear of it. If we allow ourselves to be so easily cowed, we are truly shamed.

We guaranteed Ukraine borders and independence in 1994. Was that just bullshit?

Star Member uponit7771 (82,393 posts)

49. The world has literally sent the Russian economy into NKorea land has that no intervention? When the

.... Russia forces don't get paid this thing ends

sop (6,169 posts)

7. Send in a large NATO peacekeeping force...you know, to deal with Putin's "peacekeepers."

 

Star Member vercetti2021 (7,094 posts)

16. Something needs to happen right ****ing now

If a reactor explodes. Its nuclear warfare. End of story. This has gotta ****ing stop now.

Star Member Treefrog (3,584 posts)

20. Do you think Biden isn't on top of this?

Nope.

Star Member boston bean (34,803 posts)

26. He needs the American people behind him.

Lots of people here are just completely anti war no matter what. I get it. But it is not realistic.

 

Calculating (2,182 posts)

30. Exactly

You can't be antiwar when a madman is going on a rampage. You gotta stand up to said madman or it just gets worse like it did with Hitler.

 

MarineCombatEngineer (5,324 posts)

53. Lots of us anti war members here are combat vets,

we've seen war up close and personal and want to never see it again.

Unless you've "been there, done that", then you have no idea of what war is really like, so, IMO, the one not being realistic here is you.

I trust Pres. Biden, our Military leaders and the rest of the world leaders, they're doing every thing they can to avert a nuclear strike while at the same time, strangling Russia's economy.

Yes, I understand the sentiment of wanting to go strike the Russians in Ukraine, even if I oppose it, and tragically, untold numbers of Ukrainians will be injured and killed, but think about the consequences of all out war between Russia and the US/NATO and times the number of dead and wounded by magnitudes, a world destroyed.

I want to avoid that if there's any chance of ending this by strangling the shit out of the Russian economy.

MarineCombatEngineer (5,324 posts)

58. Respectfully,

I'm drawing a line at mass human extinction and a world destroyed.

Please, give the sanctions the time needed to destroy the Russian economy, that in itself will bring down Putin, either his Military will remove him or the Oligarchs will.

Note, there's a huge difference between Hitler and Putin, Hitler didn't have nukes whereas Putin does.

MarineCombatEngineer (5,324 posts)

63. Look at it this way,

if he sets foot on any NATO member country, I would 100% support combat ops against Russia, and make no mistake, NATO would destroy the Russian military in a conventional war, and I've got to believe that the Russian military leaders know this and also know that nobody wins a nuke war and would likely remove him upon his order to release the nukes.

Here's something else to ponder, the nuclear missiles are controlled by the Strategic Rocket Forces, but the warheads are controlled by a special unit of the FSB, and from what I understand, not everyone in the FSB are on board with this illegal invasion.

Star Member NoMoreRepugs (6,600 posts)

38. Wondering how many of the "can we do what's right posters"

saw action in an armed conflict. Just curious.

USMC 1971-1977.

 

Star Member boston bean (34,803 posts)

41. Have I had to have seen action to understand what is happening?

Star Member NoMoreRepugs (6,600 posts)

44. First, wasn't singling you out. Second - what intense armed conflict for a sustained period of time gives most is a far different viewpoint going forward about committing others to engage in hostilities. Just an opinion. I truly feel for those people - all of them - both sides.

Hoping against hope that sanctions and reason can somehow resolve this without a massive commitment of men and arms.

Time will tell.

Star Member Skittles (141,376 posts)

47. I am curious how many served, period

I am suspecting.....not very many

dwayneb (318 posts)

52. Agreed - and thanks for your service

I've never been in the military, but I have a pretty thorough knowledge of WW1 and WW2 beyond just the dates and the statistics.

Every thinking person should go through those histories to really comprehend what it means to wage a war at that level. I don't think any of us can truly wrap our minds around the enormity of those conflicts.

It's easy to say things like "NATO must go into Ukraine now", but starting WW3 with NATO and US in direct conflict with Russia, will have consequences that will go far beyond anything we can imagine today. The devastation of Ukraine's infrastructure and enslavement of their population will be a small bump on the road in comparison to where that conflict would lead. It absolutely could lead to nuclear war at some level.

As others have said, I do trust Biden's approach, and I trust the DOD to have a plan. In fact I trust the DOD more than I do any politician here in the USA. We are now committing more troops to the neighboring NATO countries, have not heard about naval deployments but have to believe that is happening too.

 

MarineCombatEngineer (5,324 posts)

54. I did.

2 tours in Vietnam and Desert Shield/Desert Storm.

USMC 1964-1999.
Semper Fi.

... you have to be at least 17 to join in 1965... So... in 1999 this idiot would have been 52. In 1990 he would have been 43, with 24 years active duty...

It's a stretch, not impossible... but yeah... he's 74 now...

 

Strelnikov_ (7,492 posts)

51. It really appears that Threads needs to be broadcast again

Even a limited nuclear exchange, 3/4ths of the US population will die from starvation.

Putin is done. His military is a shell. Time is on Ukraine's side. Some day they will be back, unless there is a nuclear exchange, then no one will be back.

 

[67 Rover]

AngryOldDem (12,641 posts)

9. I'm tired of this argument.

“Maybe we can avert World War.” By trying to reason with a psychopath and deprive rich Russians of their toys? It’s clear Putin will not stop until he is made to stop.

As boston bean said, we’re already in WWIII.

Ukraine was promised when it broke away and gave up its nukes that it would be protected. What happened to that?

Clinton lied and Ukrainians died.

[DefiantSix]

and just like that the DUmpmonkiez want an aggressive war...

The Dim'Rats are great proponents for war -the more aggressive the better- for a number of reasons.

1) It allows them to think they're distracting the sheep from the utter cluster**** they're making of the domestic front.

2) It's not their blood and treasure they're throwing into the incinerator. It's OURS. And;

3) It allows them another taste of their favorite "drug": governance by compulsion. They aren't happy unless they're forcing somebody else to march to THEIR bidding...

It doesn't matter which era of history you look back to, either. Dim'Rats have been like this at least as far back as Andrew Jackson.

[CollectivismMustDie]

"Living in their own tiny world, still not getting the picture".

[67 Rover]

Star Member Treefrog (3,584 posts)

20. Do you think Biden isn't on top of this?

Bwahahahahahah. No.

Brandon will get back to you next week after his weekly vacation to Delaware. 

[fatboy]

I'm looking forward to studying "The charge of the Pink Brigade"!   

[67 Rover]

These newly minted chickenhawks do realize that if WWIII breaks out there will be no more internet, internet porn or online gaming right?

[67 Rover]

MarineCombatEngineer (5,324 posts)

63. Look at it this way,

if he sets foot on any NATO member country, I would 100% support combat ops against Russia, and make no mistake, NATO would destroy the Russian military in a conventional war, and I've got to believe that the Russian military leaders know this and also know that nobody wins a nuke war and would likely remove him upon his order to release the nukes.

Here's something else to ponder, the nuclear missiles are controlled by the Strategic Rocket Forces, but the warheads are controlled by a special unit of the FSB, and from what I understand, not everyone in the FSB are on board with this illegal invasion.

Twitter is not a reliable source of information DUmbass. 

[USA4ME]

boston bean needs to call up the Ukrainian embassy and volunteer to go fight.

If she doesn’t, she should shut up.

.

[Aristotelian]

boston bean needs to call up the Ukrainian embassy and volunteer to go fight.

If she doesn’t, she should shut up.

.

If she tried, she'd probably get confused, dial the Russian Embassy, and end up with them - let's be honest, they don't really know the difference.

[ADsOutburst]

They trust Biden?

They think he's on top of this?

Didn't Biden say pretty definitively Ukraine wouldn't be invaded? Didn't DU say he was calling Putin's bluff?

I'd hate to see what happens when Biden isn't on top of things.

[SVPete]

  Has any DU-member bothered to look at a map? Napoleon, Hitler, and Tojo had at least one big error in common. The supply lines for their forces were very long, and very susceptible to their enemies' attacks.