Star Member StarfishSaver (15,360 posts)
https://www.democraticunderground.com/100215443016
Let's be real. Andrew Brown was shot because he was fleeing not because he posed a threat
That is blatantly illegal.
Of course, he was trying to run over police officers. The Courts have upheld the defense of using lethal force against someone trying to run you over.
https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/13pdf/12-1117_1bn5.pdfJUSTICE ALITO delivered the opinion of the Court.*The courts below denied qualified immunity for police
officers who shot the driver of a fleeing vehicle to put an
end to a dangerous car chase. We reverse and hold that
the officers did not violate the Fourth Amendment. In the
alternative, we conclude that the officers were entitled to
qualified immunity because they violated no clearly established law. The Supreme Court held in a 1989 case, Graham v. Connor, that the appropriateness of use of force by officers “must be judged from the perspective of a reasonable officer on the scene,” rather than evaluated through 20/20 hindsight.
That standard is designed to take into account that police officers are frequently asked to make split-second decisions during fast-evolving confrontations, and should not be subject to overly harsh second guessing.
A seminal 1985 Supreme Court case, Tennessee vs. Garner, held that the police may not shoot at a fleeing person
unless the officer reasonably believes that the individual poses a significant physical danger to the officer or others in the community.Star Member aeromanKC (2,198 posts)
2. The DA practically said as much
The DA said that the officers duty was to bring him in dead or alive. (paraphrased)
Star Member EarlG (18,523 posts)
4. He was shot in the back while running away
Just saw the video.
The DA kept making a point during his press conference about how the deputies couldn't let Brown go in that moment -- they were "bound" to arrest him because they had a judicial warrant instructing them to do so. Therefore once he started fleeing they couldn't let him go. What?
Clearly Brown should have submitted to arrest in the first place, but shooting someone in the back while they're running away is not how we do things -- unless the person being shot is clearly an imminent threat to others, like if he's carrying a bomb or something.
In this case the cops put more people in danger than Brown did when they fired 14 shots towards occupied houses. The DA said they found one bullet in a house afterwards.
or trying to run the officers over.
As to, "Oh, he's fleeing... I guess we'll just let him go"... It's a high risk felony arrest warrant. You don't just stop because they jump in a car and drive off.
Star Member StarfishSaver (15,360 posts)
6. He claims that if he doesn't stop and submit to arrest, the car becomes a deadly weapon
Last edited Tue May 18, 2021, 05:28 PM - Edit history (1)
Bullshit.
It is illegal to kill a fleeing suspect. Claiming they are fleeing in a car and that makes it a deadly weapon is ridiculous.
This is one of the reasons that, while Happy with the George Floyd verdict, many of us tempered our joy because we knew it was an aberration. What we saw today is the overwhelming norm.
Go **** yourself, convict.
WarGamer (1,254 posts)
24. their "excuse" is the cop standing in front of the car.
who this DUmbass tried to run over.
Star Member mcar (36,076 posts)
46. The short clip clearly shows the cop easily getting out of the way
The claim of bodily harm is laughable.
Oh, it only counts if it kills someone?
lame54 (30,072 posts)
9. If he submitted to arrest he still may have been shot...
Based on previous incidents
Star Member EarlG (18,523 posts)
12. True
But the cops do have a legal right to arrest people. If you're under arrest, you're under arrest.
What the cops don't have the right to do is murder fleeing people who are not posing a danger to anyone, just because the cops would prefer they don't get away in that moment.
The fact that substantial numbers of Black people get killed AFTER submitting to arrest (or while trying to submit to arrest) is certainly a related problem though.
Star Member StarfishSaver (15,360 posts)
7. Of course, there are exceptions
But it is illegal to shoot a fleeing suspect simply because they are fleeing in order to stop them from getting away unless they pose an immediate risk to the officers or others. Driving away in a car doesn't even come close to posing that kind of risk.
Star Member StarfishSaver (15,360 posts)
10. Not true. This is not a jurisdiction by jurisdiction issue. It applies nationwide
The US Supreme Court has ruled that it is illegal to shoot a fleeing suspect unless they pose an immediate risk of deadly harm. Running away from the police is not justification for the use of lethal force anywhere in the United States, nor is the fact that an unarmed fleeing suspect may previously have had a gun.
Trying to run over a police officer...
Star Member Blanks (4,773 posts)
13. If a suspect fleeing is dangerous because of the danger inherent in driving a vehicle...
Someone needs to look more closely at the cops use of their vehicles. Cops jump in their cars and start dangerously chasing people all the time.
I’d rather they used their radios to catch people who are fleeing than put everyone on the road in danger by chasing someone for a minor traffic violation.
Star Member FarPoint (9,866 posts)
11. That news briefing was not about truth...
It smelled of dung and complete cover-up for LEO.
Stand your ground spew.
Tndem615 (64 posts)
16. So if the police have surrounded
The car, trying to get him out, and he flees, it’s the cops fault they were standing in front of the car, right?
Star Member gldstwmn (2,240 posts)
19. That's not what happened.
That is what happened. Its on video.
Tndem615 (64 posts)
20. You didn't see the video then
Be that as it may, perhaps we should ban police from having a full 360 coverage of the car. In high speed pursuits, most places mandate leaving the vehicle an”out” to keep from this very thing from happening. I’m betting the feds will mandate this at some point on all police actions.
Star Member uponit7771 (77,047 posts)
31. The cop didn't stand in front of the car, that's the still the DA showed which was bullshit when the
... video ran seeing the cop was out of the way.
Bottom line, they used the scantest metric to justify danger to themselves.
Star Member gldstwmn (2,240 posts)
17. If there's nothing to hide
then show the video.
Tndem615 (64 posts)
21. They did
[links to video]
Star Member gldstwmn (2,240 posts)
22. I meant the whole video
not thirty seconds.
Tndem615 (64 posts)
23. Well
You saw Mr. Brown attempt to get away from the police, then get killed. That’s pretty much it. I dunno if the police pre raid safety briefing was filmed, or the coroner making the location later was either.
Star Member StarfishSaver (15,360 posts)
27. "Trying to get away from the police" is not a valid reason for being shot
Tndem615 (64 posts)
29. What
If that involves running over a police officer?
oh... wait for this one...
Star Member uponit7771 (77,047 posts)
33. avoiding hitting a LEO isn't "running over a police officer"
none of that bullshit passed the smell test from the still that was shown.
This should go to a jury, let them decide the intent not the DA
He didn't 'avoid hitting a LEO'... he TRIED to hit a cop and the cop had to jump out of the way.
Tndem615 (64 posts)
38. Use of deadly force
Be it a car or a gun is still deadly force.
Star Member StarfishSaver (15,360 posts)
47. Driving a car is not "using deadly force" in every circumstance
Police are not justified in shooting anyone they encounter just because they are in a moving car.
If you're going to pop up on DU to defend police officers who shot a suspect in the back of the head, you need to come up with better arguments than this.
I really hate this ****...
Star Member Bettie (11,189 posts)
59. No police officer was run over
Not one. Not even close.
So, find another excuse since the cop wasn't even close to being harmed.
Star Member Bettie (11,189 posts)
64. And yet a white man who drives away with a cop stuck in his car window
and, while driving, hits said cop in the head repeatedly with a hammer is taken in just fine, because he poses no threat to the cop.
FFS...it seems like the worst elements of our society are winning.
Humanist_Activist (7,604 posts)
35. Yep, ACAB oh, and that includes the rest of the "Justice" system.
****ing white supremacist pieces of shit.
Star Member StarfishSaver (15,360 posts)
40. You need to be educated on the fact that the justice system is full of white supremacists?
(I'm not a "brah"
Tndem615 (64 posts)
41. I always
Tell my students to base arguments off fact, not emotions, or perceptions. You made a racist statement based off emotions. Our school interacts with government and law enforcement of many levels, and to make the statement that the justice system is “full of white supremacists” only cheapens a much needed discussion on demographic integration of all society.
Star Member StarfishSaver (15,360 posts)
44. I did not make the statement you responded to.
You might want to be more precise in your engagements and responses.
Tndem615 (64 posts)
51. You
Didn’t say law enforcement was full of white supremacists? Full...
Star Member StarfishSaver (15,360 posts)
52. I didn't make the statement you originally responded to. But you're right
Last edited Tue May 18, 2021, 09:57 PM - Edit history (3)
I did say that law enforcement is full of white supremacists.
The fact that white supremacists and racists are ensconced in police departments across the country and a culture of racial discrimination and abuse has been a reality in law enforcement for decades is a documented fact that I do not need to justify here.
But since you are such a stickler about "basing arguments off fact, not emotions, or perceptions," please explain how saying that law enforcement is full of white supremacists - even if you believe that statement is untrue - is a "racist statement"? What is racist about saying that white supremacists are in law enforcement?
I'll await your explanation. After all, I'm sure you want to be sure you're not making statements based on emotion/perception, not fact that might cheaper a much needed discussion on demographic integration of all society, right?
Star Member mcar (36,076 posts)
45. My jaw dropped when the DA said
something to the effect of, when the first shot is legit, all the shots are legit.
He also said they were determined to bring him in, when a reporter asked why not let him go and get him later.
Did anyone ask why they sent a SWAT team to deliver a warrant?
High Risk Arrest WarrantHigh-Risk Arrest Warrant - A warrant that is served where there are known armed persons at the location, or the location is barricaded.
High-Risk Operation – A police operation in which the circumstances indicate the potential for violence directed towards officers and/or involved persons is higher than normal.
