Author Topic: Oh here we go.... DUmmies are gun experts ...again  (Read 459 times)

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Offline Kc25

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Oh here we go.... DUmmies are gun experts ...again
« on: March 23, 2021, 08:51:02 PM »
https://www.democraticunderground.com/100215260502

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AndyS (10,339 posts)


MSNBC, Ari Melber just did a fantastic report on the AR15.

I'm sure it will be available on MSNBC.com tomorrow or youtube.

Extremely educational and explanatory as well as exploding gunner myths.

It IS a military weapon, it not defensive, it IS designed specifically to put as many killing rounds down range as fast as possible.

It is not a 'modern sporting rifle' which is a made up term to re-define a gun designed to meet a pentagon request for quote to replace the M-14 infantry rifle.
48

   

Yes, the AR-15 was designed to replace the M-14.
However, the difference is that rifle that the Military adopted was renamed the M-16; and then Armalite and Mr. Stoner, removed the Select Fire (For any dummies reading that means a switch that allows the operator to toggle from "Safe" to "Semi" to "Auto/Burst") function from the AR-15 and sold it to civilians.

So the AR-15 that one can buy in the US is not the rifle adopted by the military


uponit7771 (75,285 posts)
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4. K&R, All Pistol Grip Rifle or anything close should be banned. They're designed for mass kills

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Response to uponit7771 (Reply #4)Tue Mar 23, 2021, 08:57 PM
Star Member RainCaster (7,217 posts)

35. It's not the pistol grip that kills, its the velocity

When those high velocity shells hit soft human tissue, they explode. The small (0.253) entrance wound becomes a 6 inch wound within three inches of flesh depth. These are designed for one thing only, and that is to kill with maximum efficiency. It ain't the grip- it's the tiny bullet backed by a huge-ass shell full of high velocity powder. That produces a tiny bullet which moves at a ridiculous velocity. That has the power to kill anything it hits simply because of it's destructive kinetic power.

Yes, I use this type of weapon for killing small rodents on my farm. I will never use the larger caliber weapons, which IMHO, are only designed to kill humans. (FYI, I only use 0.17 caliber) If you are using an assault rifle for hunting, you are a piss-poor excuse for a hunter. A 30.06 is more than enough to kill a deer or elk. Your need for an AR-15 is based on the bullshit you have been eating from the NRA.
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Response to RainCaster (Reply #35)Tue Mar 23, 2021, 09:04 PM
Star Member uponit7771 (75,285 posts)

38. True, but its the pistol grip that allows for easier aiming while rapid shot at hip level. Germans

... wouldn't have called it an assault rifle without it and the automatic aspects.
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Response to uponit7771 (Reply #38)Tue Mar 23, 2021, 09:12 PM
Star Member RainCaster (7,217 posts)

39. Agreed. It's the automatic feature that makes it more deadly...

Along with the deep magazines that allow more rounds to be shot before reloading. I'm OK with a bolt-action system that gives me a very accurate shot, but realistically no more than 3 shots in ten seconds. If I can't kill by the second shot, I've done something very wrong. I used to have an automatic rifle- I'm better off with my bolt-action, more accurate by design.
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Response to RainCaster (Reply #39)Tue Mar 23, 2021, 09:18 PM
Star Member uponit7771 (75,285 posts)

42. THIS !!!! ☝🏾☝🏾☝🏾

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This exchange demonstrates several levels of stupidity.

1. This shooter had an "automatic" AR-15? That's news to me... seems unlikely
2. A .223/5.56 is a large caliber weapon? Who knew my .22 LR from my youth was actually a large caliber weapon...
3. Raincaster had an automatic rifle?

Are these idiots conflating auto and semi-auto again?



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joshcryer (61,636 posts)

5. It's the .223 or 5.56 bullet that is what makes it so lethal.

Read any YouTube comments on these bullets (review videos, watermelon tests, etc) and you'll see creepy comments calling them "communist erasers" and bragging about their lethality toward humans.

All of the worst mass shootings are done by these high velocity bullets that just ravage the body when they hit them. They are designed to kill.


Actually one of the worst mass shootings was commited with 9mm handguns....

This idiot seems to believe that all rounds aren't designed to kill. All depends where on the body someone is shot.

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Zeitghost (28 posts)

13. Not quite

The .223 Remington cartridge and the 5.56mm military cartridge that is based on it are fairly mild mannered rifle rounds that have less power than most traditional rifle cartridges you might find in hunting rifle. It is generally considered a "varmint round" suitable for ground squirrels and coyote and in many jurisdictions it is not legal for deer hunting due to a lack of power. It's primary reason for being chosen as a military cartridge had to do with it's lighter weight when compared to 7.62mm or the old .30-06, which allowed soldiers to carry a full load of ammunition at a much lighter weight.

Not trying to defend the use or ownership of the AR-15 by civilians. Simply trying to shed some light on the subject. Carbines like the AR-15 or the AK-47 were designed specifically to fire less powerful ammunition than other rifles.

uh oh... This DUmmie is trying to educate They will gang up on him soon enough


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Straw Man (5,466 posts)

8. There's a problem with one of Ari's characterizations.

It IS a military weapon, it not defensive, it IS designed specifically to put as many killing rounds down range as fast as possible.

The military version is capable of firing in full-auto mode, in other words, like a machine gun. As long as the trigger is held, the gun will fire continuously, at the cyclic rate of 950 rounds-per-minute until the magazine is empty, which with the standard 30-round magazine would take approximately two seconds. The civilian version requires one pull of the trigger to fire each shot, as mandated by law. There is not a human alive who can pull a trigger 30 times in two seconds.

You can certainly argue that the actual rate of fire of a semi-auto weapon is too high for public safety and that there should be more regulation of such weapons, but the characterization of the civilian AR-15 as a military weapon is not a sound basis on which to base your argument. It simply isn't true.
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Response to Straw Man (Reply #8)Tue Mar 23, 2021, 07:21 PM
ashredux (1,286 posts)

10. It is velocity....it is a Killing Machine

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Response to ashredux (Reply #10)Tue Mar 23, 2021, 07:29 PM
Star Member Straw Man (5,466 posts)

12. As is any hunting rifle.

The main criticism of AR-style rifles is and has been rate-of-fire.
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esponse to Straw Man (Reply #12)Tue Mar 23, 2021, 07:51 PM
ashredux (1,286 posts)

18. standard AR-15 bullet travels at 3,251 feet per second and delivers 1300 foot pounds.

Bring your data. It isn’t just rate of fire
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sponse to ashredux (Reply #18)Tue Mar 23, 2021, 08:41 PM
Zeitghost (28 posts)

34. You are correct

It's just that is a relatively low power for a rifle cartridge. The AR-15 gains it's advantage by being lightweight and easy to use and carry over heavier more powerful rifles.
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esponse to ashredux (Reply #18)Tue Mar 23, 2021, 09:14 PM
Star Member Straw Man (5,466 posts)

41. And a 125-grain .308 Winchester goes 3,100 fps and delivers 2,668 foot pounds.

Almost the same velocity and more than double the energy. That's data.

So are you asking for the .223 round itself to be banned? On the basis of muzzle velocity and energy? That's some pretty weak sauce.




LOl That last subthread is gonna some DUmmies tombstoned for not toeing the AR-15 are the only killing machines out there line.



Offline Kc25

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Re: Oh here we go.... DUmmies are gun experts ...again
« Reply #1 on: March 23, 2021, 08:59:29 PM »
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Star Member AndyS (10,339 posts)

40. My condolences for your experience. Shouldn't happen to anyone.

I'm also qualified on the M-16, the M-14, the M-60 and the 1911. Of them all the 16/AR-15 is the most deadly. That's what the Pentagon RFQ asked for and that's what they got.
This is the DU member formerly known as flamin lib.

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The smaller lighter round, less round capacity is deadlier than the M60? A belt fed 7.62mm round... bwahahahahaha

This guy is either completely dishonest, a complete idiot, completely made up his "quals" or all of them combined...

Oh wait... that was redundant... I should've just DUmmie or DUpipo

Offline franksolich

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Re: Oh here we go.... DUmmies are gun experts ...again
« Reply #2 on: March 23, 2021, 09:01:45 PM »
Are these idiots conflating auto and semi-auto again?

Seeing that these are primitives, I wouldn't discount the possibility that they're conflating automobile parts with firearm parts.

Remember, if the primitives were the brightest bulb in a room, one's going to trip over something.

Offline Kc25

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Re: Oh here we go.... DUmmies are gun experts ...again
« Reply #3 on: March 23, 2021, 09:12:28 PM »
Seeing that these are primitives, I wouldn't discount the possibility that they're conflating automobile parts with firearm parts.

Remember, if the primitives were the brightest bulb in a room, one's going to trip over something.

HAHA
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Offline Texacon

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Re: Oh here we go.... DUmmies are gun experts ...again
« Reply #4 on: March 24, 2021, 05:44:47 AM »
Every single time.  Won't be long and we'll have the shooting experts coming out onto the field proclaiming their expert marksmanship with but one trip to the range and just how easy it is to hit a bullseye at 100-1,000 yards.

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Offline 67 Rover

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Re: Oh here we go.... DUmmies are gun experts ...again
« Reply #5 on: March 24, 2021, 08:05:09 AM »
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If you are using an assault rifle for hunting, you are a piss-poor excuse for a hunter. A 30.06 is more than enough to kill a deer or elk. Your need for an AR-15 is based on the bullshit you have been eating from the NRA.

WOW. I can't even.  :o

A breathtaking lack of firearm knowledge in just a few sentences.

On the bright side according to this DUmmie I can keep my BAR because it is not as lethal to humans.
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Offline Zathras

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Re: Oh here we go.... DUmmies are gun experts ...again
« Reply #6 on: March 24, 2021, 08:06:20 AM »
The only thing DUmbasses are expert at is being absolutely wrong on everything. Hell I wonder if there's still DUmbasses that think the AR in AR-15 stands for Assault Rifle.
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Offline ADsOutburst

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Re: Oh here we go.... DUmmies are gun experts ...again
« Reply #7 on: March 24, 2021, 08:37:47 AM »
I can't believe people still think they're getting the news when they watch MSNBC.  ::)

Also, I don't hunt or own an AR-15, but after watching videos of ranchers trying to get rid of herds of pests, I can understand why having more rounds is indeed useful.

Offline SVPete

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Re: Oh here we go.... DUmmies are gun experts ...again
« Reply #8 on: March 24, 2021, 09:32:48 AM »
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AndyS (10,339 posts)

MSNBC, Ari Melber just did a fantastic report on the AR15.
...
It IS a military weapon, it not defensive, it IS designed specifically to put as many killing rounds down range as fast as possible.

It is not a 'modern sporting rifle' which is a made up term to re-define a gun designed to meet a pentagon request for quote to replace the M-14 infantry rifle.

I'm no "gun nut", but even I know:

 :thatsright: The AR-15 was never a military weapon. The military did use it in testing what became the M193 (5.56 NATO) cartridge, but it never was a standard issue battle rifle.

 :thatsright: The AR-15 could not replace the M14 and was not designed to do so because the M14 could be full-automatic, while the AR-15 is not. The AR-15's rate of fire is limited by the user's finger quickness. What replaced the M14 was the M16, which could be full-automatic.

 :thatsright: The M193 (5.56 NATO) cartridge is a modification of Remington's .223 cartridge, which is used by civilians for hunting, self defense, etc.. A rifle chambered for 5.56 NATO can fire a .223 Remington cartridge.

If Ari Melber really claims the AR-15 is/was a "military weapon" he's a flagrant liar ... which means he's an excellent fit on MesSNBC.

Offline 67 Rover

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Re: Oh here we go.... DUmmies are gun experts ...again
« Reply #9 on: March 24, 2021, 11:01:12 AM »
I'm no "gun nut", but even I know:

 :thatsright: The AR-15 was never a military weapon. The military did use it in testing what became the M193 (5.56 NATO) cartridge, but it never was a standard issue battle rifle.

 :thatsright: The AR-15 could not replace the M14 and was not designed to do so because the M14 could be full-automatic, while the AR-15 is not. The AR-15's rate of fire is limited by the user's finger quickness. What replaced the M14 was the M16, which could be full-automatic.

 :thatsright: The M193 (5.56 NATO) cartridge is a modification of Remington's .223 cartridge, which is used by civilians for hunting, self defense, etc.. A rifle chambered for 5.56 NATO can fire a .223 Remington cartridge.

If Ari Melber really claims the AR-15 is/was a "military weapon" he's a flagrant liar ... which means he's an excellent fit on MesSNBC.

I would love to know what military in the world uses or has used  AR-15's?
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Offline SVPete

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Re: Oh here we go.... DUmmies are gun experts ...again
« Reply #10 on: March 24, 2021, 11:21:52 AM »
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ashredux (1,286 posts)

18. standard AR-15 bullet travels at 3,251 feet per second and delivers 1300 foot pounds.

Ummmmm ... ASSuming ashredux did the (1/2)MV2 math correctly, (s)he ASSumed that the muzzle velocity and the bullet velocity when hitting the target is the same ... wrongly.

1. I wonder what the energy at the muzzle would be for the 7.62 NATO.

2. 9 mm, .45 ACP, .38 ACP, and .38 Special handguns are used far more often to kill people. I wonder what their energy is at the muzzle (I'm guessing that the non-"+" .38 Special energy is quite a bit lower than other pistol rounds).

Offline Old n Grumpy

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Re: Oh here we go.... DUmmies are gun experts ...again
« Reply #11 on: March 24, 2021, 02:37:56 PM »
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True, but its the pistol grip that allows for easier aiming while rapid shot at hip level.

Kind of like holding a pistol sideways when shooting. 

If that were the case you would have a pistol grip on your penis for better aiming as well.

It's to bad stupidity and ignorance isn't terminal. :thatsright: :thatsright: :thatsright:

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Offline DLR Pyro

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Re: Oh here we go.... DUmmies are gun experts ...again
« Reply #12 on: March 24, 2021, 02:59:05 PM »

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The 5 Most Embarrassing Gun Quotes from Politicians

Some politicians just don’t get guns. By that, we mean they don’t understand them—at all. They don’t use the right technical terms, they don’t know how to properly operate firearms, and perhaps worst of all, they seem to think what they see in the movies is real. This can lead to some highly embarrassing flubs when speaking about gun-related issues or legislation. Some misconceptions are so prevalent now that they are commonplace, such as mistakenly calling a magazine a clip, or blurring the lines between semiautomatic and fully automatic guns. Then there are the times when a statement is so nonsensical and so ludicrous that it becomes an instant meme.

When that happens, the internet never forgets.

Here are five memorable quotes from politicians that have been widely poked fun at in recent years. It should be noted that there are plenty of politicians that are gun owners and know perfectly well how a gun works, but these aren’t some of them.

1. “Shoulder thing that go up”
This infamous phrase was spoken by Congresswoman Carolyn McCarthy (D-NY) after she admitted that she did not immediately recall what a barrel shroud was, despite identifying the item as part of a bill to ban so-called “assault weapons.”

A barrel shroud is, of course, a covering attached to the barrel of a firearm that prevents the user from burning themselves—as its name would suggest. A “shoulder thing that goes up,” on the other hand, is more reminiscent of the shoulder-mounted plasma caster from the Predator films.

2. “There won’t be any more available”
US Representative Diana DeGette (D-CO) uttered these words in a forum on gun control after explaining that once gun owners have used their magazines, they won’t be able to use them anymore. What?

Maybe the full quote will help:

“What’s the efficacy of banning these magazine clips? I will tell you these are ammunition, they’re bullets, so the people who have those know they’re going to shoot them, so if you ban them in the future, the number of these ‘high capacity’ magazines is going to decrease dramatically over time because the bullets will have been shot and there won’t be any more available.”

No, that still doesn’t make much sense. What happened was that DeGette was trying to explain why she supported a ban on magazines that can accept more than a certain number of rounds, but somewhere along the way she confused the concept of magazines with bullets.

Magazines aren’t one-use items. At least not the well-made ones.

3. Incendiary rounds are “heat seeking devices”
While discussing a proposed ban on .50 caliber rifles, New York Assemblywoman Patricia Eddington (D-District 3) mistook incendiary rounds for heat-seeking ammunition. Incendiary rounds do not, in fact, track targets, but have a compound within the projectile that burns rapidly.


4. “Buy a shotgun” and “fire two blasts”
This notorious quote comes from none other than Vice President Joe Biden, who in a town hall Q&A with Parents magazine, recommended buying a shotgun and firing two shots out of your front door if you feel threatened. Not exactly the best legal advice, as in 2013 a man claimed he followed Biden’s advice to chase away three men from breaking into his car, only to be slapped with a misdemeanor charge.

Biden also received criticism from gun rights advocates by saying that shotguns are preferable to AR-15s since the rifles are “harder to aim, it’s harder to use, and in fact you don’t need 30 rounds to protect yourself. Buy a shotgun.”


5. The “Ghost Gun” incident
This is a prime lesson that politicians should familiarize themselves with the topic at hand before speaking publicly. California State Senator Kevin de León spoke at length about “ghost guns,” or firearms that lack a serial number, during a press conference in 2014. Arguably the most memorable moment was when de León identified one of the “ghost guns.”

“This is a ghost gun. This right here has the ability with a 30-caliber clip to disperse with 30 bullets within half a second. 30 magazine clip within half a second,” he said.

Okay, none of that makes any sense, so let’s break it down.

There is no such thing as a “30-caliber clip.” What de León meant to say was likely that the weapon had a magazine capable of storing 30 rounds. Also, unless that firearm has been heavily modified and is from the future, it likely does not fire 30 rounds within half a second. To put this in perspective, the maximum rate of fire from a M134 Minigun, a machine gun that has six barrels, can fire 50 rounds in half a second. And that’s the gun’s theoretical maximum. Your average AR-15 variant has a much lower rate of fire.

https://www.outdoorhub.com/stories/2016/01/07/5-embarrassing-gun-quotes-politicians/
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Offline ADsOutburst

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Re: Oh here we go.... DUmmies are gun experts ...again
« Reply #13 on: March 24, 2021, 04:08:16 PM »
https://www.outdoorhub.com/stories/2016/01/07/5-embarrassing-gun-quotes-politicians/
I seem to remember one not listed on there that irks me. Didn't some politician tell another person she didn't need a gun because she could just use her martial arts skills to defend a knife attack? :thatsright: Just wrong on more than one level.

Offline SVPete

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Re: Oh here we go.... DUmmies are gun experts ...again
« Reply #14 on: March 24, 2021, 04:19:58 PM »
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Star Member uponit7771 (75,285 posts)

38. True, but its the pistol grip that allows for easier aiming while rapid shot at hip level. ...

Putting the MORON in oxymoron!

Offline 67 Rover

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Re: Oh here we go.... DUmmies are gun experts ...again
« Reply #15 on: March 24, 2021, 04:47:58 PM »
I seem to remember one not listed on there that irks me. Didn't some politician tell another person she didn't need a gun because she could just use her martial arts skills to defend a knife attack? :thatsright: Just wrong on more than one level.

Ugh.  :mad:
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Offline DUmpDiver

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Re: Oh here we go.... DUmmies are gun experts ...again
« Reply #16 on: March 24, 2021, 05:03:38 PM »
DUmp gun threads never fail to amuse. :rofl:

Offline zeitgeist

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Re: Oh here we go.... DUmmies are gun experts ...again
« Reply #17 on: March 24, 2021, 06:15:24 PM »
DISCLAIMER

I DO NOT NOW NOR HAVE I EVER HAD A MOLE NAMED ZEITGHOST AT THE DUMP :rotf:


That said, I have to concur with others that DUmmy threads on guns are among the most hilarious on the Net.

I grew up on a farm down a two rut road five miles from the nearest neighbor.  Guns in the rack by the door were always loaded.  You didn't even have to think about it. Never shot at anything you don't intend to kill, this is what gun control is.
« Last Edit: March 24, 2021, 06:20:30 PM by zeitgeist »
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Online landofconfusion80

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Re: Oh here we go.... DUmmies are gun experts ...again
« Reply #18 on: March 24, 2021, 11:02:21 PM »
DISCLAIMER

I DO NOT NOW NOR HAVE I EVER HAD A MOLE NAMED ZEITGHOST AT THE DUMP :rotf:


That said, I have to concur with others that DUmmy threads on guns are among the most hilarious on the Net.

I grew up on a farm down a two rut road five miles from the nearest neighbor.  Guns in the rack by the door were always loaded.  You didn't even have to think about it. Never shot at anything you don't intend to kill, this is what gun control is.
My boys got their .22s at 7 and 6. They are excellent marksmen and know and respect their tools. My oldest put a round through the neck of a squirrel the other day and ate it.
One Who Grows (244 posts)
20. absolute bullshit. the cave is unspeakably vile.

I don't know how any of you can live with yourselves.

:)

Offline SVPete

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Re: Oh here we go.... DUmmies are gun experts ...again
« Reply #19 on: March 25, 2021, 08:24:08 AM »
... They are excellent marksmen and know and respect their tools. ...

IOW, exactly what the writer of the 2A had in mind, "well regulated" when it comes to their firearms. The point of the "well regulated militia" clause was that the militias should not have to train members in using their musket or rifle. A large segment of the population having that handling and marksmanship knowledge averted the need for that training.

Online landofconfusion80

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Re: Oh here we go.... DUmmies are gun experts ...again
« Reply #20 on: March 26, 2021, 07:15:55 AM »
IOW, exactly what the writer of the 2A had in mind, "well regulated" when it comes to their firearms. The point of the "well regulated militia" clause was that the militias should not have to train members in using their musket or rifle. A large segment of the population having that handling and marksmanship knowledge averted the need for that training.
Absolutely.  Them knowing the power of their tools and being able to care for and handling them properly was a condition of them being allowed to have the rifles in the first place. All of the kids wrote essays on the relevance of the gadsden flag so they could receive hats with the flag on them was a recent activity. Independent libertarians in the making.
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20. absolute bullshit. the cave is unspeakably vile.

I don't know how any of you can live with yourselves.

:)

Offline SVPete

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Re: Oh here we go.... DUmmies are gun experts ...again
« Reply #21 on: March 26, 2021, 08:36:51 AM »
The "civilian" arms vs. "military" arms distinction is largely phony. The rifles and muskets used by civilians in the 18th Century when the 2A was written were the same rifles and muskets used by armies. Medieval hunters used the same sorts of bows-and-arrows and spears armies used. Slings such as the shepherd David famously used were used in battle by ancient armies like modern mortars.

Limits in law on the kinds of weapons a civilian could own are a recent thing. Before that the limits were practical - who could carry/transport a Ma Deuce or a large cannon or a trebuchet along with their respective projectiles :o ?

Online landofconfusion80

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Re: Oh here we go.... DUmmies are gun experts ...again
« Reply #22 on: March 26, 2021, 02:30:50 PM »
The "civilian" arms vs. "military" arms distinction is largely phony. The rifles and muskets used by civilians in the 18th Century when the 2A was written were the same rifles and muskets used by armies. Medieval hunters used the same sorts of bows-and-arrows and spears armies used. Slings such as the shepherd David famously used were used in battle by ancient armies like modern mortars.

Limits in law on the kinds of weapons a civilian could own are a recent thing. Before that the limits were practical - who could carry/transport a Ma Deuce or a large cannon or a trebuchet along with their respective projectiles :o ?
Lots of privately owned cannon and war ships existed during the revolutionary War. The idea of an organized American armed force was "complicated " needless to say, having a few howitzers and maybe a well regulated f4 phantom on the farm would be warmly welcomed
One Who Grows (244 posts)
20. absolute bullshit. the cave is unspeakably vile.

I don't know how any of you can live with yourselves.

:)

Offline SVPete

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Re: Oh here we go.... DUmmies are gun experts ...again
« Reply #23 on: March 26, 2021, 05:31:41 PM »
There have been commutes when I wished my commutermobile had a GAU-8 ...

Offline J P Sousa

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Re: Oh here we go.... DUmmies are gun experts ...again
« Reply #24 on: March 27, 2021, 01:24:03 PM »
The sad thing, as a previous poster stated, is MSNBC get's away with absolute LIES.

Quote
FBI Stats Show Knives Kill Far More People Than Rifles In America – It’s Not Even Close
Quote
The FBI’s most recent data from 2019 shows that while firearms account for the vast majority of homicides overall — 10,258 — the number of homicides committed using a rifle (364) is much smaller.
    https://dailycaller.com/2021/03/24/knives-kill-more-people-than-rifles-every-year/

(I just don't have the stomach to post on DU.)
« Last Edit: March 27, 2021, 01:26:50 PM by J P Sousa »
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