primitive gets mileage out of question

[franksolich]

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x3727986

Oh my.

miles 2 go  (215 posts) Mon Aug-04-08 12:31 PM
Original message

I would like your input on my problem.
   
Hi. Even though I only have a few posts, I have been here since 2003. I was under a different name for a long time with over 1000 posts. I moved and when I got back on, I elected not to join back up so I wouldn't be tempted to post. I read a lot of DU and was trying to force myself to keep it down a bit. Posting, as you know, ends up taking a lot of time.

ANyway, that's just a little background. Here's my problem:

My son is 22 and makes minimum wage. He pays child support out of that wage for his two children. He is now divorced. He recently had a child out of wedlock. He wants nothing to do with this child and wishes to sign his rights over to the mother.

First, if he does that, is he still responsible for child support or insurance for this child?

Second. It hurts me to think that this child will be out there without our contact and support. His mother's family is much better off financially than we are and it is true he will most likely have a better life with them than with us. This is my sons thinking as well. He feels that him making 6.50 an hour and living out of his car is in no way going to help this child and that if the mother has a man in her life that wants to adopt him, that he should let her do so.

I am upset with the idea.

We have had very heated arguments already about it. He feels I should just stay out of it. It is his decision to make and that if he were to give a child up for adoption, that we (the rest of the family) can't be involved with the child and make the whole thing work.

I am hoping that maybe someday he will change his mind and I feel that his decision is mostly out of hopelessness with his own situation and finances.

Should I just shut the hell up and forget this child? Should I cause more anger and fighting by insisting on being part of the child's life?

Please don't flame me badly, feeling kind of down already.

TheWraith  Donating Member  (1000+ posts) Mon Aug-04-08 12:38 PM
Response to Original message

1. Yes, he is still liable for child support.
   
Relinquishing parental rights doesn't affect that. As to the rest, it's a mess and no mistake. My best advice would be to try and get through the thing with as little heartbreak involved as possible, for everyone. If your son isn't going to change his mind, don't try to force him or damage your relationship because of it. He might regret it later (or not), but there are some things that just can't be helped in the mean time.

Warpy  Donating Member  (1000+ posts) Mon Aug-04-08 12:41 PM
Response to Original message

2. If DNA proves he is the child's father, then he is liable for child support. He can be sued, no matter whether or not he has signed over his rights. Signing over his rights only means that he will have no say whether or not the child is eventually adopted by someone else. He is still responsible for supporting his child should the mother want to pursue it.

He is doing a very generous thing in allowing someone else who is in a better financial and emotional position to raise a child to adopt his child. While I fully sympathize with your desire to know your grandchild, consider what is best for the child, especially in his/her earliest years.

Birthday cards in care of the child's mother, with or without a financial gift inside, are probably your best bet for keeping some communication open with the mother. Perhaps in time, she will allow you to become a small part of the child's life.

It's her call, though. You can't fix this situation, I'm afraid. You can only make it worse.

miles 2 go  (215 posts) Mon Aug-04-08 01:24 PM
Response to Reply #2

16. The mother wants us to see him
   
At least she does now or says she does. I had originally planned to pursue this regardless of my son's actions or desires. After talking (yelling, screaming) with him, I have come to question that decision. If I maintain contact, there is no way that he will be able to do what he wants to do.

I think maybe I could stay in touch but my contact would be mostly of the type of meeting him and his mother for a few minutes and I would of course have to fawn over him. Then he would be gone for who knows how long. I would rather have a relationship where he comes to visit about twice a month and I have him for several hours or even overnight. Like I said though, a relationship like that doesn't allow my son to step away. THough I don't agree with him, my son does have a point when he says it's not my call.

Probably the letter or card to his mother will be the way to go.

cprompt  (94 posts) Mon Aug-04-08 01:30 PM
Response to Reply #16

18. it could start
   
that way, but hopefully over time, if you have been there and convinced the mother that although you don't agree with your son you want to be part of your grandchild's life, it could be the situation you envision.

she is going to need help getting the child to places sometimes, or watching him when she starts dating again. Personally, I had to be firmly convinced the two aunts of her side of the family that still wanted involvement, where on my side. Yes they have a family bond to the mother and yes they still love her but in this instance alone, they supported me over her. They have that trust from me now and have had for several years, my son is welcome to go stay with them and play with his cousins, etc.

cprompt  (94 posts) Mon Aug-04-08 12:42 PM
Response to Original message

3. right up my alley
   
I have been in this exact situation except I am the father, the mother wanted nothing to do with the child. My wife did adopt my son and the birth-mother hasn't seen the child since he was 4 months old, he is now almost 10 years old.

First, no is the answer. If he signs a waiver of parental rights, he is not obligated for anything. They actually go back and re-write the birth certificate, SSN, etc so he's nowhere on it. At the time I did it, was a $1500 legal procedure for everything. But no, he is in no way, shape, form, or fashion legally obligated to the child again. It's basically as if he didn't exist in the equation at all. My son's birth-mother signed this before she moved away and is in no way allowed to come back down the road. My son's birth records now show my wife as the mother.

Second, that's up to you and the mother. If your son signs the waiver, legally the mother doesn't have to allow you any visitation period. You have few rights as a grandparent anyways, let alone if your son signs the child away. If you want to have a relationship with your own grandchild then so be it, that's not his decision to make for you just as you can't make what level of a relationship he has with his own child. Two aunts on my son's birth-mothers side still have some level of involvement in his life and I have no problems with it at all.

Lastly, and this is just my opinion, but I don't get the logic that a child is better off with one parent than with two just because one makes minimum wage. I grew up poor in Mississippi, but I was raised that you are responsible for your actions. At the time I had my son I was 19 and didn't make much either. I worked two jobs while attending college and raised my son alone for the early years. Just because he makes little to no money now doesnt mean he always will and to me is a cop out that he really just doesn't want to father the child.

MiniMe  Donating Member  (1000+ posts) Mon Aug-04-08 12:56 PM
Response to Reply #3

11. Question
   
First, good for you for taking care of your son, you are a good father.

What if the mother doesn't want to release him from responsibility? If he signs a waiver to get out of child support, and the Mom says "forget it", would it still be binding?

cprompt  (94 posts) Mon Aug-04-08 01:05 PM
Response to Reply #11

12. if the mother doesn't want to release him, she doesn't have to. All of these documents are signed by both parties in the presence of a notary or at the court.

He is leaving himself exposed big time by drawing up any document that just says no child support. First off, I doubt any states even allow rights without support nor would any counselor advise that. But lets say they did, and 10 years from now she goes to file bankruptcy or files for food stamps. The state will see she has children and will want to know how much support she receives. The moment it shows none, the state will then issue a garnishment on his wages for support (current & back-child support). Simply put, the state will not put up taxpayer money for a child just because the father wanted equal rights but no monetary support.

miles 2 go  (215 posts) Mon Aug-04-08 01:31 PM
Response to Reply #3

19. I agree with you
   
I think it is a cop out as well. I mean I do understand what he is saying. He makes 200 a week and 70 comes out for child support. He currently can't afford to feed himself let along another child. But I think it is just easier to just let it all go away.

That upsets me by itself. I was hoping that they would just let it ride for now. Give him time to better himself or change his mind.

cprompt  (94 posts) Mon Aug-04-08 01:43 PM
Response to Reply #19

21. i can definitely understand the lack of finances part of it. Honestly, I feel for you here, I really do because unfortunately you've been put in a situation where you want to be a part of your grandchild's life but by doing so you feel like you have to disagree with your son. It's a loss/loss situation. Is it possible he move back in with you for a little while to help ease the burden?

If anything I'd highly encourage you be a part of the child's life and try to encourage your son to get an education. Hopefully in 3-4 years, you'll have developed enough of a bond with the mother that she'll allow you to see the child, and maybe by then you're son is in a better place from an earnings perspective and matured enough to get that he does want to be involved and you can slowly mediate him into the child's life (with the mother's permission of course).

Also, is this relatively new news? Just asking in case this is just a gut-shot paranoia reaction by your son.

glowing  Donating Member  (1000+ posts) Mon Aug-04-08 12:49 PM
Response to Original message

5. If the child is adopted out, then he is no longer financially responsible.
   
However, I would advise that he does an open adoption. This way he can keep in touch and keep and eye on his growing up, though he would have no say-so in any of the rearing that the mother and step-father conduct. There are ways to do things that make it best for the child. I think that a child who is adopted and doesn't know has more questions about the reasons behind the decision to give them up when they are young. If he's there, the child can understand that he was financially unable to provide the type of life that is necessary in today's world.

Good luck. My husband gave up his daughter, too. If we had the resources, we may have fought it, but the cost per month was insufferable. AND to provide ourselves and our other child a future, we had to allow the proceeding to occur. AND I understand their wanting the adoption. The child only remembers her step-father, and if something were to happen to her mother, losing the only family she's ever known to live with a stranger would be upsetting.

grasswire  (1000+ posts) Mon Aug-04-08 12:51 PM
Response to Original message

7. first, I must congratulate you for your big heart
   
This child is your blood kin -- it's natural to be wanting to be in the child's life. Your son may regret later what he is inclined to do now. Kudos to you for thinking ahead. You really are protecting your son's interests, I think, by encouraging him to keep that option open.

Did you know that grandparents have legal rights where grandchildren are concerned? You might want to read up about that in your state.

And yes, I believe he will have to pay something for this child's care. Maybe he ought to take responsibility for birth control so this doesn't happen again.

Ah, another thought. Is there a chance that your son could better his circumstances if he were to go back to school for retraining in a better paying career? That might be the BEST thing for everyone. Perhaps you could help him move in that direction. He might be eligible for grants or something. His self esteem would improve, his earning potential would improve.

Certainly, now, he is eligible for some free legal advice regarding his responsibilities, and I urge him to get some.

miles 2 go  (215 posts) Mon Aug-04-08 01:43 PM
Response to Reply #13

20. Wonder how much one of those would cost?
   
Wonder if I could get him to do it? THey should have some type of human spay neuter clinic. lol

I do try to think of the baby. What keeps coming up is that he shouldn't have to feel unwanted ever and that the more people that a child has to love them, the better off they are in life. Other than that, our family offers little.

It will cause a huge problem if I do pursue a relationship with the baby. I don't know if the mother will really allow us in or if she is just toying with us and would change her mind later. I think the grandparent rights in this state are iffy but has some grounding.

[Chris_]

My son is 22 and makes minimum wage. He pays child support out of that wage for his two children. He is now divorced. He recently had a child out of wedlock. He wants nothing to do with this child and wishes to sign his rights over to the mother.

You raised an idiot (I assume the apple doesn't fall far from the tree).  If he is making minimum wage at 22, then he is a ne'er do well.

You can't help him -- he will be an idiot for the rest of his days.  But you can help him get a vasectomy so he at least can't damage himself or the taxpayers any more.

[Bondai]

What kind of a moron goes to an open discussion forum for advice on a matter like this?

[franksolich]

What kind of a moron goes to an open discussion forum for advice on a matter like this?

A primitive.

It's their nature; they can't help themselves.

[DumbAss Tanker]

The son is just a notch or two above scum to get himself in that position and should seriously pursue a vasectomy (At least he's holding down a job, even if it is a dead-end one, and paying some pittance toward the previous two kids).  However the only way he can sign away his support obligation is by consenting to an adoption.  His "Signing away his rights" means exactly Jack Shit with respect to his obligations, short of an adoption. 

[Flame]

$200 a week???  I know 16 yr olds that make more than that BABYSITTING!

LOSER!! 

[djones520]

My son is 22 and makes minimum wage. He pays child support out of that wage for his two children. He is now divorced. He recently had a child out of wedlock. He wants nothing to do with this child and wishes to sign his rights over to the mother.

You raised an idiot (I assume the apple doesn't fall far from the tree).  If he is making minimum wage at 22, then he is a ne'er do well.

You can't help him -- he will be an idiot for the rest of his days.  But you can help him get a vasectomy so he at least can't damage himself or the taxpayers any more.

Minimum wage at 22 wouldn't make him a ne'er do well.  Having 2 kids from a divorced marriage and a love child you want nothing to do with, while being 22 and making minimum wage.  Yah, that makes you a ne'er do well.

To the original OP.  You want advice on what your kid should do?  Tell him to wrap that shit up.

[DixieBelle]

Let me guess, the primitive told her son all about sex when he was younger? *eyeroll*

[Splashdown]

Where is this 22-year-old's father?



 


 



The apple didn't seem to fall to far from the tree here.

[Carl]

I know we all can do dumb things and make mistakes but 22 years old,no skills,2 children from a marriage and now one from another relationship?

This is DUmmyland to the core,not an ounce of responsibility or intelligence just a live every moment for personal gratification and then expect someone else to pay for the consequences. 

[rich_t]

I had two kids by the time I was 21.