NoJusticeNoPeace (1,967 posts) http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026311081
I need help figuring something out. If I am a Christian, do I want my fellow humans to have
food, shelter and healthcare?
Or do I not want them to?
Or do I not care either way?
The American Taliban (TeaparTY) and Repubican position seems to be they are adamantly against providing food, shelter and especially healthcare for people if tax dollars are needed to pay for it, I am sure everyone agrees with that statement. Are we in agreement that the vast majority of American Taliban (TeaParTY) are self described Christians?
So are they saying that Jesus would be for taking care of the poor as long as tax dollars arent involved?
Surely they arent saying Jesus only cares for the poor with non tax dollars?
The answer is kind of black or white here, and I would love to hear it.
Jesus said, "Render unto Caeser what is Caeser's and unto man what is man's."
He asked them to show him a coin. "Shew me the tribute money." They brought it to Him. At that point, He had them trapped. The "penny" was a denarius. This was a coin used specifically to pay taxes. If taxes were not legitimate, why did his critics possess one? Furthermore, it bore an image. It also had an inscription. The inscription invoked the language of divinity. The Jews regarded this as idolatrous. But they had brought Him a coin. What were they doing with such coins?(6)
Jesus asked them specifically: Whose image? Whose inscription? Caesar's, they answered. What else could they say? "Then saith he unto them, Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's; and unto God the things that are God's." By acknowledging that they possessed a tax coin, they were also acknowledging that Rome brought civil order. Civil order must be paid for. If Caesar's image and inscription were on the coin, then those who used such coins in trade were gaining a benefit: money. By using money to gain what they wanted to buy rather than bartering, they were extending the division of labor. This increases men's output per unit of resource input. It makes them wealthier.
Caesar's rule brought social stability. It created international legal framework for economic growth. It was Rome, not Israel, that had built the highways and had cleared the Mediterranean Sea of pirates. There are no free lunches, and Rome was merely collecting what belonged to it. Jesus was saying that the benefits of civil government had to be paid for. The beneficiaries owed something to the State.
A coin was a mark of political sovereignty in the ancient world. It still is. The theology of Rome was visible on Rome's coins. The image and the inscription announced the divinity of the emperor: "Emperor Tiberius august Son of the august God."(7) This is what angered the Jews. But the agents of the Pharisees or their Herodian allies had such a coin in their possession. The Herodians were content with the coins. The Herod of Jesus' infancy had been a ruthless tax collector.(8) But the Pharisees were indeed hypocrites. "But woe unto you, Pharisees! for ye tithe mint and rue and all manner of herbs, and pass over judgment and the love of God: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone" (Luke 11:42).(9)
Jesus was not arguing that Caesar owned everything that he laid claim to. On the contrary, men are to render to God what God possesses. What Caesar owned was legal authority over the political system that provided the Roman Empire's money. This legal system had to be supported by taxes. Israel was benefitting from this system, despite the system's inequities. Besides, Israel was under judgment, and had been since the captivity. Living under foreign domination was nothing new for Israel. Rome had brought greater trade and prosperity by opening up new markets. Israel was benefitting from the arrangement. On what basis should Israelites have refused to pay taxes? Jesus had the answer: none. But He gave this answer in such a way that the Pharisees could not embarrass Him.
The tithe is mandatory. It preceded the Mosaic law. Abraham paid a tithe to Melchizedek (Gen. 14:20). There is nothing in the New Testament to indicate that this law has been annulled. Only the recipients have changed: from the local Levites to local churches. Through Christ, the church is the heir of the Melchizedekan priesthood. "So also Christ glorified not himself to be made an high priest; but he that said unto him, Thou art my Son, to day have I begotten thee. As he saith also in another place, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec" (Heb. 5:5-6). "Whither the forerunner is for us entered, even Jesus, made an high priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec. For this Melchisedec, king of Salem, priest of the most high God, who met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings, and blessed him; To whom also Abraham gave a tenth part of all; first being by interpretation King of righteousness, and after that also King of Salem, which is, King of peace" (Heb. 6:20-7:2). Men owe the local church their tithes.(12)
What do they owe the State? Less than a tithe. Any system of civil government that takes as much as ten percent is tyrannical, Samuel warned.
And he said, This will be the manner of the king that shall reign over you: He will take your sons, and appoint them for himself, for his chariots, and to be his horsemen; and some shall run before his chariots. And he will appoint him captains over thousands, and captains over fifties; and will set them to ear his ground, and to reap his harvest, and to make his instruments of war, and instruments of his chariots. And he will take your daughters to be confectionaries, and to be cooks, and to be bakers. And he will take your fields, and your vineyards, and your oliveyards, even the best of them, and give them to his servants. And he will take the tenth of your seed, and of your vineyards, and give to his officers, and to his servants. And he will take your menservants, and your maidservants, and your goodliest young men, and your asses, and put them to his work. He will take the tenth of your sheep: and ye shall be his servants. And ye shall cry out in that day because of your king which ye shall have chosen you; and the LORD will not hear you in that day (I Sam. 8:11-18).
The Israelites in Samuel's day refused to heed this warning (v. 19). In the twentieth century, Christians have not cried out when the State has extracted four times the tithe or even more from them. They live under what the Bible clearly identifies as tyranny, yet they call it democratic liberty. What rouses their ire is any suggestion that they owe a tithe to their local churches. "We're under grace, not law!" they proclaim. In fact, they are under pagan law, pagan bureaucrats, pagan tax collectors, and pagan lawyers.
Jesus made it clear that the State is entitled to taxes. He implied that the church is also entitled to tithes. If we do not turn to the Old Testament to find out what the limits of taxes and church contributions are, we shall forever be caught between the tax collector and the church in their quest for funding. The Old Testament provides information on these limits. For the church, the limit is ten percent of our net income. For the State, the limit is less than ten percent (I Sam. 8:15, 17). The State does not have the right before God to extract from residents as high a percentage as the church has the right to demand of its voting members. Any State that demands as much as ten percent is a tyranny. The total level of taxation, from local civil government upward, must be less than ten percent of a person's net income.
The modern church does not believe this. The result is a church that does not have the courage to demand tithes of its voting members, and a State that cannot resist extracting four or five times the tithe. Christians have sought to starve God's church by refusing to tithe. Meanwhile, the messianic State extracts their wealth unmercifully. God is not mocked.
The Bible identifies what God is legally entitled to and what the State is legally entitled to. This, the world has refused to do. The result in our day is the widespread acceptance of the welfare State. The end result of this is personal dependence on the State and social bankruptcy.
BlueCaliDem (8,598 posts)
1. Nothing these radical whacky-Christians practice is Christian-like. Nothing. Therefore,
they're not Christians since they don't follow the example of Christ. Everything they do is a 180 from what Christ's followers were asked to do.
These Neo-Confederate people (commonly but mistakenly referred to as Republicans) are anti-Christ.
You have no clue of what you speak.
BlueCaliDem (8,598 posts)
21. There is only ONE objective: do as Christ did. That's all. eom
PassingFair (21,358 posts)
39. "I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies, and everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die. Do you believe this?" She said to Him, "Yes, Lord; I have believed that You are the Christ, the Son of God, even He who comes into the world."
Trillo (8,566 posts)
32. These anti-Christ people are also ones running Christian schools. As a non-Christian, I'm upset as heck that any of my tax dollars are supporting Christian food banks, whether they are Christians or "Christians" (anti-Christ). Food banks should be secular.
WDIM (420 posts)
5. I can tell you what Ive been told by the christian right That if people didnt have to pay so much in taxes that people would donate more to charities and churches and the charities and churches would take care of the poor and unfortunate. I dont believe this rationalization they give. I believe one of the most important jobs of the government is to provide a safety net and that it is for the common good that we take care of all of our citizens.
jwirr (27,993 posts)
7. Almost all churches would have agreed that you would want everyone to have food, shelter and
healthcare PRIOR to the 80s. Than along comes Jerry Falwell, the fundies and raygun with their hate propaganda and now it depends which god you follow.
sarisataka (4,655 posts)
26. It's really not that difficult
Matthew 22:37-39 ESV / 39 helpful votes
And he said to him, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the great and first commandment. And a second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself.
So if you like food, make sure others have food...
As for taxes
Matthew 22:17-21, the Pharisees asked Jesus a question: "Tell us then, what is your opinion? Is it right to pay taxes to Caesar or not?" But Jesus, knowing their evil intent, said, "You hypocrites, why are you trying to trap me? Show me the coin used for paying the tax." They brought Him a denarius, and He asked them, "Whose portrait is this? And whose inscription?" "Caesar's," they replied. Then He said to them, "Give to Caesar what is Caesar's, and to God what is God's."
Implication being that Caesar can do what he wishes with his money.
How to tell a "real" Christian? The instruction manual has that too
John 13:35 By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.â€
Another so called expert with no clue.
JimDandy (4,621 posts)
30. How are posts with religion as the subject being allowed to keep creeping into GD where they are not allowed?
Ooops
NoJusticeNoPeace (1,967 posts)
55. Charity wont do it, wont come anywhere close, if it is up to charity alone hundreds of thousands will starve or freeze to death
If everyone gave with a Christian heart there wouldn't be a need for Government handouts. However- look at you on DU... not one of you says "I will give more." It's all, "The Government must do more- with someone else's money."
Revanchist (750 posts)
54. Ask them what they think of Deuteronomy 15
7 If there is a poor man among your brothers in any of the towns of the land that the LORD your God is giving you, do not be hardhearted or tightfisted toward your poor brother.
8 Rather be openhanded and freely lend him whatever he needs.
10 Give generously to him and do so without a grudging heart; then because of this the LORD your God will bless you in all your work and in everything you put your hand to.
11 There will always be poor people in the land. Therefore I command you to be openhanded toward your brothers and toward the poor and needy in your land.
Or any of these other verses for that matter http://www.openbible.info/topics/helping_the_poor Let's see them weasel their way out of that discussion.
What about you? I see Christian Charities aplenty. Not alot of Atheist ones.
