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Offline franksolich

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primitives discuss "myths" about gun control
« on: June 22, 2014, 12:29:21 PM »
http://www.democraticunderground.com/12626819

Oh my.

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Al Carroll (18 posts)    Sat Jun 21, 2014, 11:02 PM

The Four Most Widely Believed Myths About Gun Control

Article of mine that fits the purpose of this group. When you hear these arguments, here's evidence vs.
 
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http://www.dailykos.com/story/2014/06/09/1305461/-The-Four-Most-Widely-Believed-Myths-About-Gun-Control

Adapted from an excerpt from Presidents' Body Counts at www.smashwords.com/books/view/419159
 
The latest domestic massacre in the news is no longer unusual. It is not even by itself, with several other mass shootings also happening recently. What is striking about these shootings is that they no longer bring much outrage, for gun control opponents have in place a series of myths filled with blindness and lack of understanding on the history of firearms in US history.

So hardened are these defenses that there often is no debate at all, and the notion of moderate voices on these issues seems unlikely. I write this article as a man who grew up hunting rabbits and deer in Texas, learning to shoot before I began middle school. I have a lifelong familiarity with guns as a hunter, an army veteran, and a historian who writes about veterans and issues of war, peace, and human rights, and a believer in subsistence hunting rights for Native peoples and the rural poor. Yet I am sure none of that will stop gun rights absolutists from dismissing out of hand the evidence I present.

These are the four most pervasive myths maintained about gun control by their opponents, designed to make debate or dissent on the issue impossible and unanswerable:
1. Gun control does not work.
2. It is barred by the Constitution.
3. It would lead to dictatorship, or firearms keep us free.
4. Guns prevent crime/make us feel safe.

To which I answer:
1. Gun control clearly can work. It worked in the Old West. It worked in Germany after World War I. It worked after Prohibition. It worked in Australia in halting gun massacres. It works in any number of nations with lower far lower death rates from both crime and suicide thanks to gun bans. To what extent a nation should have it is another issue.

There probably is no other era where ideas about it are shaped more by Hollywood than the Old West. The west was not nearly as violent as portrayed on film (except in violence done against Natives, where Hollywood has yet to depict such genocide accurately.) One of the reasons most of these small towns were not that violent was that gun control was common. Sheriffs often barred the carrying of guns. You had to turn yours in to the sheriff as you entered town, and you picked it up as you left.

In Weimar Germany, immediately following World War I, Communists and other leftists tried to overthrow the government. One way they were defeated was by the government banning and seizing guns. Keep in mind a democracy did this. German gun control stopped a Communist revolution. The Nazis, when they came to power, loosened gun control.

Because of Prohibition and the violent struggle for the bootleg trade, the US successfully barred sawed off shotguns, machine guns, and buying guns by mail. This is a success gun rights absolutists ignore. How often does one hear of a drug gang shootout with tommy guns, or a school shooting where the shooter bought the gun by mail?

Australia is just the latest example of a nation's gun control efficiency. Since passing in the 1990s, some murder or suicide rates have dropped by at least a third, by some estimates as high as three quarters. What is often missed by both sides of the debate is that gun suicides kill many more than violent crime. Cutting off access to guns to the mentally ill would be the biggest source of saving lives.

Why would suicides drop? Wouldn't people just kill themselves with something else? No, most suicides are cries for help. Once a suicide fails, or others intervene, many don't try suicide again. Many other ways of killing yourself, like sleeping pills, are not as effective as guns. People take too much and throw up, or are saved by getting their stomachs pumped. A bullet to the temple is far more final.
 
2. Gun control is not barred by the Constitution. The NRA, acting for the gun industry, has pushed a lot of false ideas with the intent of spreading paranoia and thus gun sales. There was little standing army in the US at the time of the Constitution. Thus the NRA sometimes claims a militia was meant to be “every adult male.” This is false. Militias meant “every adult white male.”

The purpose of a militia was not “to preserve freedom.” Just the opposite, militias were designed to preserve slavery and murder Indians or rebellious slaves. Militias were slave catching patrols. They also were vigilante groups designed to attack Indians. There was nothing noble about militias, and it is ludicrous and ignorant of basic history to paint them as such. With the end of slavery and war against Natives, their purpose is gone, long since dead.

In over 200 years, the courts only ruled on gun control twice. In US v Cruikshank in 1876, the Supreme Court ruled “the right to bears arms is not granted by the Constitution.” That is a direct quote from their decision. In US v Miller in 1939, the Supreme Court ruled the federal government can limit any weapons not related to a militia. If you are not part of the National Guard or reserves, the Constitution does not protect your gun ownership. The last decision by the court, the Heller case, was obviously influenced by decades of NRA rhetoric. The court ruled 5-4, along purely ideological lines.

It may surprise many readers, but the NRA did not get involved in gun control issues until the 1970s. It was mostly an apolitical gun safety organization, until Wayne LaPierre, conspiracy crackpot that he is, was elected president. The NRA actually favored some gun control as late as the 1980s, such as background checks. To keep gun sales up, LaPierre has become more deranged, peddling more extreme conspiracy theories over the years.
 
3. This is the easiest myth to dispose of. Guns do not keep a nation free. The voice of its people does. Guns do not guarantee freedom because governments can always get more powerful weapons than the public can. There are many democracies with gun control, some with greater freedom than the US. Every nation in Scandinavia, for example, has strict gun control but nothing like the Patriot Act.

Dictatorships do not fear gun ownership, but free voices. Typically their first acts are to shut down universities, newspapers, unions, and churches, not gun shops. Dictatorships even hand out guns. Latin American dictatorships created paramilitaries for their supporters.
 
4. Guns sometimes prevent crime, but not as much as banning them does. The study often quoted by the gun industry claims guns are used over 2 million times a year to stop crime. It has obvious exaggerations and even outright lies. Much of what many in the study claimed was stopping crime never happened, and in many cases the gun owner was committing a crime, assault or threats. No credible study has found over 100,000 uses of a gun for self defense a year. The Department of Justice only found about 83,000 cases of self defense for six years, or less than 16,000 a year. The number of deaths or injuries from guns is those same years was one and a half times as high.
 
There are still perfectly valid reasons for gun ownership, such as some forms of hunting. Even self-defense can be a valid argument, but not for blind unthinking gun worship. Guns rights defenders should not argue from ignorance of the cause they believe in, or from irrational conspiracy theories. No one, virtually no major organization or political leader seeks to ban all guns. Gun groups have put their cause in the bizarre situation of even defending wife beaters' alleged “right” to have a gun. Such an approach will backfire, leading to stricter regulation down the line since it becomes easy to paint all gun rights advocates as lunatics.
 
------

Al Carroll is Assistant Professor of History at Northern Virginia Community College and a former Fulbright Scholar. His other books are Medicine Bags and Dog Tags: American Indian Veteran Traditions from Colonial Times to the Second Iraq War and Survivors: Family Histories of Colonialism, Genocide, and War. He is a longtime activist and researcher for NewAgeFraud.org. More information on him can be found at http://alcarroll.com.

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Loudly (2,249 posts)    Sat Jun 21, 2014, 11:09 PM

1. Love is blind, and America loves guns.

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Thinkingabout (6,375 posts)    Sat Jun 21, 2014, 11:21 PM

2. Proper guns used properly is not so much a problem.

Have guns myself, have always been taught safety, safety, safety. There was a time I viewed NRA as a like interested group who was about safety but not anymore. I still hope sanity will over run the insanity and we can arrive at a safe middle point for everyone's safety. We control speed on our streets, we can control other things also. We can control weapons availability and still respect the right to bear arms.

<<<surprised the BainsBane primitive, who wants to take firearms away from peaceful law-abiding people while letting criminals run freely amok with them, overlooked this.
« Last Edit: June 22, 2014, 12:44:45 PM by franksolich »
apres moi, le deluge

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Offline thundley4

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Re: primitives discuss "myths" about gun control
« Reply #1 on: June 22, 2014, 01:21:38 PM »
Quote
Australia is just the latest example of a nation's gun control efficiency. Since passing in the 1990s, some murder or suicide rates have dropped by at least a third, by some estimates as high as three quarters. What is often missed by both sides of the debate is that gun suicides kill many more than violent crime. Cutting off access to guns to the mentally ill would be the biggest source of saving lives.

Bullshit. From 1996 to 2007 murders in Australia dropped a little over 20%.

Quote
In Weimar Germany, immediately following World War I, Communists and other leftists tried to overthrow the government. One way they were defeated was by the government banning and seizing guns. Keep in mind a democracy did this. German gun control stopped a Communist revolution. The Nazis, when they came to power, loosened gun control.

And that is a perfect reason not to give up our guns. The Nazis actually restricted gun ownership and would not let minorities own guns, only "approved citizens" could own them.

Quote
. Gun control is not barred by the Constitution. The NRA, acting for the gun industry, has pushed a lot of false ideas with the intent of spreading paranoia and thus gun sales. There was little standing army in the US at the time of the Constitution. Thus the NRA sometimes claims a militia was meant to be “every adult male.” This is false. Militias meant “every adult white male.”

The US Supreme Court would disagree with you.




Offline Mr Mannn

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Re: primitives discuss "myths" about gun control
« Reply #2 on: June 22, 2014, 01:43:15 PM »
Quote
The purpose of a militia was not “to preserve freedom.” Just the opposite, militias were designed to preserve slavery and murder Indians or rebellious slaves. Militias were slave catching patrols. They also were vigilante groups designed to attack Indians. There was nothing noble about militias, and it is ludicrous and ignorant of basic history to paint them as such. With the end of slavery and war against Natives, their purpose is gone, long since dead.
Now this one made me laugh. Militias are eeeeeeevill. The author obviously never took a history class, or he is a F***ing liberal liar.

Militias fought in the revolution. We are FREE today because of Militias. Private ownership of weapons made revolution possible.

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3. This is the easiest myth to dispose of. Guns do not keep a nation free. The voice of its people does. Guns do not guarantee freedom because governments can always get more powerful weapons than the public can.
OK lets look at this. there are 300 million guns in America today, The military has 1 million soldiers.
a 100 to 1 advantage means the people will soon be in possession of all those fancy tanks, planes and machine guns.
**** this is why the democrats want to disarm Americans. They plan to do things against the will of the people. Tyrannies like the Democrats want to build never fear the voice of the people because they have all the guns.
*** sorry rats, numbers are on our side.

Offline Carl

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Re: primitives discuss "myths" about gun control
« Reply #3 on: June 22, 2014, 01:57:04 PM »
The right to bear arms is what keeps you little tyrants in check...that is why you hate it and why the Founders knew it was needed.

Offline FlaGator

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Re: primitives discuss "myths" about gun control
« Reply #4 on: June 22, 2014, 02:06:24 PM »
One myth about DU
1) They actually have knowledge of the subjects they speak on
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Offline JohnnyReb

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Re: primitives discuss "myths" about gun control
« Reply #5 on: June 22, 2014, 02:37:20 PM »
One myth about DU
1) They actually have knowledge of the subjects they speak on
“The American people will never knowingly adopt socialism. But, under the name of ‘liberalism’, they will adopt every fragment of the socialist program, until one day America will be a socialist nation, without knowing how it happened.” - Norman Thomas, U.S. Socialist Party presidential candidate 1940, 1944 and 1948

"America is like a healthy body and its resistance is threefold: its patriotism, its morality, and its spiritual life. If we can undermine these three areas, America will collapse from within."  Stalin

Offline Big Dog

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Re: primitives discuss "myths" about gun control
« Reply #6 on: June 22, 2014, 02:39:56 PM »
<<<surprised the BainsBane primitive, who wants to take firearms away from peaceful law-abiding people while letting criminals run freely amok with them, overlooked this.

She's just trying to get on the Big Dog's good side.

She's lonely, and franksolich won't drive up to Minneapolis and take one for the team.


<<< - Won't take one for the team, either.
Government is the negation of liberty.
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Offline GOBUCKS

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Re: primitives discuss "myths" about gun control
« Reply #7 on: June 22, 2014, 02:58:07 PM »
stevenumbers will take one, and he doesn't even have a team.

Offline franksolich

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Re: primitives discuss "myths" about gun control
« Reply #8 on: June 22, 2014, 03:16:17 PM »
She's just trying to get on the Big Dog's good side.

She's lonely, and franksolich won't drive up to Minneapolis and take one for the team.

<<< - Won't take one for the team, either.

Oh now, I long ago explained why.

Back when I was young, and growing up in the heart of the Sandhills of Nebraska, when my best friend and I were 14 years old, we began cruising the Sandhills.  All the other kids cruised up and down the red-bricked-paved main street, about two miles from the east side of town to the west side of town, just aimlessly driving back-and-forth for hours and hours, listening to the radio.

Well, he and I cruised the whole entire Sandhills, a 275-mile trip in the middle of the night.....one way.  This meant we didn't get home until Saturday mid-morning, but while there was a fuss about it, and we got yelled at, because we were otherwise good kids, we got away with it.

The Sandhills of course are vastly non-populated, and the next town from ours that had an all-night gasoline station and restaurant was 200 miles west.

One time we went into the restaurant, besides just filling up the vehicle with gasoline. 

This was a different era (the late 1970s), when decent and civilized people slept in their beds at night, and only the less reputable members of society were afoot (or, acar); the restaurant was crowded with big burly truck drivers and their tattooed, cosmeticized, over-endowed molls.

We, two 14-year-olds, walked in.

Everybody turned to stare at us.

"Oh, lookee here," shrieked one woman; "two young 'uns.

"Two root beers for the boys, please."

Then she began turning around.  She was wearing a halter-top that could barely contain even the tips of her jugs, and her jugs were, well, massive.  We were standing close enough that as she swung around, the pair almost slapped us in the face.

Ever since that experience, even though now a long time ago, I haven't cared for big-jugged women. 
apres moi, le deluge

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Offline Mr Mannn

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Re: primitives discuss "myths" about gun control
« Reply #9 on: June 22, 2014, 03:40:00 PM »
I've always wondered about the one major flaw in the dreams of gun confiscators.

They always seem to focus on people who have never committed a crime. Perhaps they could go door to door in Chicago's inner city and disarm the crooks first. But somehow that never seems to be on the agenda.

Where are the ATF hits on muslim mosques? Those are always store houses for arms and ammunition.

If gun control was about disarming crooks, it might mean something. But Gun Control's big lie has always been about protecting the people. It was never intended to do that. never ever.

Offline franksolich

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Re: primitives discuss "myths" about gun control
« Reply #10 on: June 22, 2014, 03:42:10 PM »
I've always wondered about the one major flaw in the dreams of gun confiscators.

They always seem to focus on people who have never committed a crime. Perhaps they could go door to door in Chicago's inner city and disarm the crooks first. But somehow that never seems to be on the agenda.

Where are the ATF hits on muslim mosques? Those are always store houses for arms and ammunition.

If gun control was about disarming crooks, it might mean something. But Gun Control's big lie has always been about protecting the people. It was never intended to do that. never ever.

:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:
apres moi, le deluge

Milo Yiannopoulos "It has been obvious since 2016 that Trump carries an anointing of some kind. My American friends, are you so blind to reason, and deaf to Heaven? Can he do all this, and cannot get a crown? This man is your King. Coronate him, and watch every devil shriek, and every demon howl."

Offline HawkHogan

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Re: primitives discuss "myths" about gun control
« Reply #11 on: June 22, 2014, 04:53:12 PM »
Now this one made me laugh. Militias are eeeeeeevill. The author obviously never took a history class, or he is a F***ing liberal liar.

Militias fought in the revolution. We are FREE today because of Militias. Private ownership of weapons made revolution possible.
OK lets look at this. there are 300 million guns in America today, The military has 1 million soldiers.
a 100 to 1 advantage means the people will soon be in possession of all those fancy tanks, planes and machine guns.
**** this is why the democrats want to disarm Americans. They plan to do things against the will of the people. Tyrannies like the Democrats want to build never fear the voice of the people because they have all the guns.
*** sorry rats, numbers are on our side.

He's apparently a history professor at some community college.  He clearly doesn't study history because his article had so many inaccuracies.  He completely lied about the history of militias and the Second Amendment.  There's plenty of quotes from the founding fathers that debunks the nonsense about the Second Amendment only guaranteeing the right to bear arms for the "militia." 

Also, he completely disregards the Heller case.  I don't even know why he mentioned it.  It completely contradicts his argument.

Finally, did he really argue that gun control worked in post-WWI Germany?  I guess it can be considered a success.  Once those liberal tyrants began rounding up Jews and others for the concentration camps, no one could resist because of gun control.

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Re: primitives discuss "myths" about gun control
« Reply #12 on: June 22, 2014, 09:05:47 PM »
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Gun control is not barred by the Constitution.

This one made me laugh.  According to SCOTUS, gun control IS unconstitutional.

Why do you think Mayor Rahm from Shitcago is now having to figure out how to have gun stores inside the city, while pretending to portray an image of "gun control"?
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Offline DumbAss Tanker

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Re: primitives discuss "myths" about gun control
« Reply #13 on: June 22, 2014, 10:25:14 PM »
Quote
In Weimar Germany, immediately following World War I, Communists and other leftists tried to overthrow the government. One way they were defeated was by the government banning and seizing guns. Keep in mind a democracy did this. German gun control stopped a Communist revolution. The Nazis, when they came to power, loosened gun control.

Yeah, not even.  What stopped the Communists, who were busily conducting their own little reigns of terror and purges in 1919-20, were the Freikorps, essentially right-wing unemployed vets led by warlords who were armed with the surplus weapons of the Great War in more or less the same array as Imperial infantry formations in 1918, save for the omission for the most part of light artillery weapons which they lacked the logistics to support.  The German police were utterly ineffective at quelling the Commies, and same goes for the Treaty-permitted but toothless Reichswehr which was only slightly more heavily armed than the police.  It was Freikorps units, manned by desperate men skilled in small unit tactics and armed with small arms, grenades, and Maxims who beat the Reds back into line then.

Now, assuming the DUmmie actually did mean the real Weimar Republic that emerged after the chaos of 1919-20, which is possible but would show a truly singularly-accurate knowledge of real history by a DUmmie, the Commies were never actually in revolt.  They were, however, even bigger thugs than the Nazis (Just without the racial aspect) and had plenty of weapons salted away for the  Big Day, but were pursuing victory at the ballot box as their primary strategy, mainly by methods remarkably similar to the Democrats today...efforts to terrorize opposition voters, intimidation or harassment of opposition parties by legal or extra-legal means, promises to punish the class enemies of the masses, freebies for all the downtrodden, Internationalism with the Bolshevik brothers and sisters in other lands, seizure and redistribution of the property of anyone deemed to have 'Too much,' and all that sort of 99% claptrap that lies under a thin coat of paint in the Donk appeal to the rabble today...

Well, then, if the real Weimar Republic is the topic, what actually happened was that the Commies intimidated or pissed off everyone in the military, police, and middle and upper class so badly that those groups were willing to put up with the Nazis as a necessary counterbalance to the Reds.  The majority of the German populace had no particular antipathy to the Jews, but the Reds were such a huge threat that the the voters chose to ignore that aspect of the Nazi platform as a stupid foible irrelevant to them.  The fact that a significant strength of the Reds lay in the working-class and academic Jewish communities had the unfortunate effect of making the Nazi racialist stupidity more palatable and even plausible than it otherwise would have been. 

The prospect of Red electoral triumph, no matter how dirty the tactics used to gain it (And it was clear to all that the Reds would stick at nothing), in light of then-recent events in the former Russian Empire and particularly to Germans in the Ukraine who had been brought in under the Tsar to improve agriculture, seemed to lead directly to an outcome of massive upheaval, purges, persecutions, land and property seizures, and other general mayhem.  In this environment, the police and still-castrated Reichswehr turned a blind eye to Nazi paramilitarism and the stockpiling of weapons by organized anti-Communist groups.*  The only people effectively disarmed in the Weimar Republic thus turned out to be the law-abiding, independent, unradicalized poor bastards caught in the middle

Unfortunately, the Weimar Republic proved to have a ridiculously inadequate set of checks and balances, and what ones there were proved to be far too poorly-rooted to withstand the hurricane of an out-of-control executive who could ram through 'Emergency legislation' that essentially vested all governmental power in himself while preserving some outward forms of democratic government, purely for show.  Now that being the case, are the structures and policies of such a government really the ones we should look to as a model for pursuing current social issues.


*Like Stahlhelm, nominally a WW1 veterans' organization, but one full of the Freikorps vets who were virulently anti-Communist, which eventually merged with the Nazis during their ascendancy.  And, while one is tempted to say with respect to all these de facto Nazi supporters "A mistake, in retrospect," we can't really know for sure any better than they did at the time, since Red ascendancy over the Nazis and other more Centrist parties could have resulted in a bloodbath the equal of Stalin's Holodomor in the Ukraine and the tens of millions killed in his other political persecutions, quite possibly resulting in a further cascade of megadeath as Stalin and a German client state sought to crush Poland and the Western democracies, conceivably enforcing a bloody reign of terror across the entire continent of Europe...it is not impossible that the outcome could actually have been even worse if the Reds had managed to overcome the Nazis.  The die is only rolled once, so we'll never know, and probably just as well at that.
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Offline obumazombie

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Re: primitives discuss "myths" about gun control
« Reply #14 on: June 22, 2014, 10:35:35 PM »
We need a poll for all cavers to entreat Big Dog into taking one for the team.
There were only two options for gender. At last count there are at least 12, according to libs. By that standard, I'm a male lesbian.

Offline Airwolf

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Re: primitives discuss "myths" about gun control
« Reply #15 on: June 23, 2014, 03:10:27 PM »
Leave it to some DUmmy teacher to rewrite history to make gun control work. It's never worked and will only end up doing the very things we have seen. Disarming the law abiding to make them easier to control.
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Offline JohnnyReb

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Re: primitives discuss "myths" about gun control
« Reply #16 on: June 23, 2014, 05:13:38 PM »
Illegal drugs.....DUmmies have them even though possession of them is outlawed.....but outlawing guns will work. :fuelfire:
“The American people will never knowingly adopt socialism. But, under the name of ‘liberalism’, they will adopt every fragment of the socialist program, until one day America will be a socialist nation, without knowing how it happened.” - Norman Thomas, U.S. Socialist Party presidential candidate 1940, 1944 and 1948

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Offline franksolich

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Re: primitives discuss "myths" about gun control
« Reply #17 on: June 23, 2014, 05:17:25 PM »

Damn, you're good, sir.

That is exactly as I learned it.....but I lack the talents to repeat back what I learned.

Great piece of history!
apres moi, le deluge

Milo Yiannopoulos "It has been obvious since 2016 that Trump carries an anointing of some kind. My American friends, are you so blind to reason, and deaf to Heaven? Can he do all this, and cannot get a crown? This man is your King. Coronate him, and watch every devil shriek, and every demon howl."

Offline franksolich

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Re: primitives discuss "myths" about gun control
« Reply #18 on: June 23, 2014, 05:19:35 PM »
Illegal drugs.....DUmmies have them even though possession of them is outlawed.....but outlawing guns will work. :fuelfire:

I've always said that gun-banning would be as effective as booze-banning during Prohibition.

And in the end, just as we ended up with more drunks because of Prohibition, we'd end up with more violence than ever.
apres moi, le deluge

Milo Yiannopoulos "It has been obvious since 2016 that Trump carries an anointing of some kind. My American friends, are you so blind to reason, and deaf to Heaven? Can he do all this, and cannot get a crown? This man is your King. Coronate him, and watch every devil shriek, and every demon howl."

Offline DumbAss Tanker

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Re: primitives discuss "myths" about gun control
« Reply #19 on: June 23, 2014, 05:53:38 PM »
Damn, you're good, sir.

That is exactly as I learned it.....but I lack the talents to repeat back what I learned.

Great piece of history!

Well, thanks, Frank, I knew you'd appreciate the parallels between today's Donks and the Reds of that time, as well as being thoughtful and well-read enough to contemplate the real possibility that a Red Weimar could actually have turned out even worse for the world than the Nazi Reich did, flying in the face of all our popular history and received wisdom though it does. 
Go and tell the Spartans, O traveler passing by
That here, obedient to their law, we lie.

Anything worth shooting once is worth shooting at least twice.