Demgurl talks about rape. Again.

[dutch508]

demgurl (3,159 posts) http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025129875

When Does Saying No, And Giving In, Become A Yes?There has been a lot of talk over George Will's writing over the last couple of weeks. Talk of girls seeking status by saying they were raped. Debate over whether the reported numbers are too low or high. And talk about what actually constitutes rape.

For various reasons I have been talking to a lot of rape survivors as of late. Some have confided incidents which they have never told anyone else about. I have had people approach me publicly and even more have approached me in private. Tonight I found a private message from one such person. She wrote to me a few days ago and expressed the guilt she feels over what she could have done to prevent the three rapes she experienced.

Now, wait just a tick, here. Not to belittle anyone's trama but what she is talking about is survivor's guilt. Pretty damn common and fairly well known. It happens to a great many survivors of various trama including war vets. It's a sad thing but can be helped with therapy. Dem is making it sound like some huge event has happened to her. (Dem that is, with someone coming forward to talk) The one thing I have found about people who have gone through a horrible thing is that they do tend to seek out others who have, just so that they don't feel so totally alone.

The question of what could have been done to prevent a crime is not uncommon. For rape survivors it is not just a matter of a simple question. For survivors it is a question coupled with a lot of guilt. The question may fade but the guilt becomes a part of your being. It effects you and invades your thoughts. For some, the guilt will last a lifetime and cause much doubt.

I wrote to the woman telling her she should never feel guilt over a crime someone else commits. Tonight she replied with a rather lengthy message detailing her three rapes. On one occasion she explicitly said no. The rapist was a huge guy who grabbed her by the neck and hauled her into another room. At that point it was clear what he meant to do and she silently acquiesced. The guilt over this has haunted her thoughts and won't let her have peace. She asked me, "When does saying no and giving in become a yes?"

This is a question a lot of rape survivors struggle with. How do we define when a no magically turns into a yes? For me this was a very straight forward answer. A 'no' becomes a yes when you actively come onto the guy kissing and groping him. Or when you say, "Oh my god, f@ck me." All of us have been there at some point in time. We are tired after a long day at work and we tell our loved one 'no' or 'not now'. Maybe he kisses our ear in that special way or says something that just turns us on at that moment. We roll over and start kissing him and things develop. That is NOT rape. That is a legitimate turn around. He did not force himself on you or coerce you in any way. It does not become a 'yes' when you sense defeat or the possibility of getting hurt and you just lay there. It is not consent if you say no and he aggressively pursues intercourse anyway. And another good clue it is rape is when he says, ""it will be okay just don't think about it". This was said to the woman by her 'friend'. If they do not want you to think about it then he knows as well as you do that it is not consensual.

There we have "the" word to describe when saying no, and giving in, is a yes. Was it consensual? If the answer is yes then it was not rape. If it was not, then it was rape. There are no exceptions to this. For sex not to equal rape it has to be consensual. 

As tragic as all this is for someone to go through Dem is simply re-posting information that is found on literally countless sites already. What's the point of Dem's post? Who knows.

Evergreen Emerald (10,293 posts)
1. It kills me that the victims always feel guilty

And the rapists generally have no guilt whatsoever.

The thing about silently acquiescing, they will generally use as much force as necessary...had she fought, the force would have increased and she would have been hurt even worse.

I agree. I feel guilty about not going back to Afghanistan with my good friend Todd Clark. He was killed last year and I feel like I've let him down by not being there. It's sad that so many people feel survivor's guilt.

Alex P Notkeaton (120 posts)
18. American Sharia

Judeo-Christian and just as ****ed up as the Muslim version!

it wouldn't be DU without a slam of Christianity.

dilby (580 posts)
5. My rule is this, if a woman says no, I leave.

If you have moved that far where it's a yes or no situation and the answer is no you need to leave at that point. There is no sex in the world that is worth prison time.

Dilbert here, a newbe DUmpmonkie, looking for cred and a little *****, tries to 'tow the ****ing line'  with the vagina brigade...

rug (59,669 posts)
24. Let me understand you.

You're with a woman.

You become intimate.

At some point she says no in some fashion.

You then leave.

How do you think she feels about it?

Some message has been conveyed.

... and gets slammed for it.

Gravitycollapse (6,612 posts)
17. Interesting how you seem more concerned with your own future than with the woman's.

In other words, your main concern seems to be avoiding the personal consequences of doing something wrong rather than being cognizant of the consequences for a woman you could potentially have raped.

They guy acts like they want him to and they cut his balls off for it. For the ****fighters, every man is a potential rapist.

redqueen (107,466 posts)
34. THIS POST RIGHT HERE.

SO sick of guys focusing solely on whether their behavior is illegal or not

. Like that's the bar for their actions - that they can't actually be thrown in ****ing jail for it.

Um... that is the bar for moral behavior.

LeftyMom (46,286 posts)
59. Rape apologists are decloaking all over this thread.

Remind me again how DU doesn't have a misogyny problem? 

All I see is DUmp 'men' trying to be understanding and the *****riot sect getting their panties in a twist.

 

[Mr Mannn]

Demgurl: I do not believe you were ever raped.
I believe you are LYING. You are merely claiming this for attention.
Since (as you claimed) you never reported the rape, you need not provide any evidence. You are a DUmmy, and DUmmies lie all the time. I refuse to take you at your word.

Any rapist would let you go the moment he dragged you under a streetlight.
So don't come round here making false claims.

[Maxiest]

Sex is rape to this ****ing idiots...  Their little games are so ****ing ridiculous it hurts my head.

[USA4ME]

Gravitycollapse

17. Interesting how you seem more concerned with your own future than with the woman's.

In other words, your main concern seems to be avoiding the personal consequences of doing something wrong rather than being cognizant of the consequences for a woman you could potentially have raped.

That is one of the most weird and stupid things I have read from a primitive on this topic.

So if you put a move on a girl, and she says No, then she becomes "a woman you could potentially have raped."

It's like they're trying to make any attempt that isn't 100% a certain thing to become rape, or at least potential rape.

 

"I asked, she said no, I left."

"POTENTIAL RAPIST!!!!"

But if you don't even try at all, you're a woman hater who doesn't want intimacy and a relationship.

Liberals are majorly messed up.

.

[franksolich]

Their little games are so ****ing ridiculous it hurts my head.

That's the thing about the women's-libbers.

Be nasty to them, and they get all upset and bent out of shape.

Be nice to them, and they get all upset and bent out of shape.

So there's no point in being anything to them.

[thundley4]

The double d primitive has nothing on this creature from twitter.
https://twitter.com/PhoebeKwon

Karen posted a few select quotes on Facebook, but this bitch is nuts.

[Chris_]

The double d primitive has nothing on this creature from twitter.
https://twitter.com/PhoebeKwon

Karen posted a few select quotes on Facebook, but this bitch is nuts.

I think the Three Amigas would feel right at home with Mizz Kwon.

[Carl]

Gosh,I guess in her world giving a guy a bj is a "no". 

[Big Dog]

DUmmy grrrl finally found something to get her fellow DUmmies to pay attention to her, and she's going to ride that pony until it dies.


Actual footage. There's a pony somewhere under there, trust me.

Poor little pony.

[vesta111]

I think the Three Amigas would feel right at home with Mizz Kwon.

Sad, so sad.   Do these woman have no fathers or grand pop in their lives that they are proud of for accomplishments in their lives ?

WTF is this crap about ending Fathers Day, Men are not JUST sperm delivery systems.   

  When a bad lot who is  raising children that the mothers allow them to be, beating up the mother and the kids, in and out of jail and on drugs, they will never change as long as the woman, the courts, the system allows them to be dead beats.     They depend on the being punished and told to " Go and sin no more".

We really need to get back to biology that makes raising our kids with two parents to be role models for the kids to follow. 

We need Men to be in their children's lives, not just with a monthly child support check but with communication be it Email or snail mail that is more fun to get. 

For the dads that have no interaction with their children because of time or space, I suggest once a month send a registered letter to the kids, this way in the future the kids will have proof their Dad tried to connect with them, be part of their lives even if the kids never get the letters.     Never know what the other parent will do to keep the kids loyal to them.

No one has said that Mothers Day be dropped, some mothers die or run off, the fathers that step up to the plate to single raise his children without the mother are Saints in my eyes.    Not their biological role but they do so with love and devotion to their children.

Personal reasons here, my daughters grandmother died young , her father and brother were raised by a poor Dad that managed to put one son through college and the other taught how to live off the land.   

To each his own, one brother was very smart, the one I married had different smarts.

[vesta111]

The smart brother went on to graduate from college the less smart brother had the skills to live off the land and the rivers.

The smart brother went on to make a fortune and lost his first wife.    The youngest brother went on to marry and divorce 4 times.     Both have now died, both in the ground leaving their children and grandkids to just see their cemetery  marker with no knowledge of how they lived ,loved or the knowledge  they could have passed on.

Very important  people in the lives of their kids but, Men have no idea just how valuable  they are to the next generation with the Harpies, woman who want all the power then cry out for the Men to help them.

[JohnnyReb]

Boy do they have me confused...Are they saying "NO" or "KNOW"?

[thundley4]

Boy do they have me confused...Are they saying "NO" or "KNOW"?

Yes.

[Chris_]

Sad, so sad.   Do these woman have no fathers or grand pop in their lives that they are proud of for accomplishments in their lives ?

WTF is this crap about ending Fathers Day, Men are not JUST sperm delivery systems.

Yes they are.  That belief is at the core of modern liberalism and its ugly stepsister, feminism.  Men are irrelevant, families are oppressive social structures to be abolished.