http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x3350685The comment's in the middle of the bonfire; this has to do with the Irish voters rejecting the European Union.
It's a most peculiar bonfire; the party-line book of the primitives mandates that the primitives think that this is a bad deal, rejection of the European Union, but the reaction of the primitives is mixed, to say the least.
muriel_volestrangler DU Moderator Donating Member (1000+ posts) Fri Jun-13-08 08:14 AM
Original message
Irish minister says EU vote lost
Source: BBC
Irish Justice Minister Dermot Ahern says substantial vote tallies across the country show the European Union Lisbon reform treaty has been rejected.
Tallies are not official, but Mr Ahern says it is clear the No vote is ahead in a vast majority of constituencies.
This would scupper the treaty, which must be ratified by all members. Only Ireland has held a public vote on it.
...
The treaty, which is designed to help the EU cope with its expansion into eastern Europe, provides for a streamlining of the European Commission, the removal of the national veto in more policy areas, a new president of the European Council and a strengthened foreign affairs post.
Read more: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7452171.stm
xchrom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Fri Jun-13-08 08:35 AM
Response to Original message
1. is there a rising anti-eastern european feeling in europe?
edwardlindy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Fri Jun-13-08 09:49 AM
Response to Reply #1
3. Possibly some isolated examples as in Naples at present I believe.
Divernan (1000+ posts) Fri Jun-13-08 10:53 AM
Response to Reply #1
5. There was much concern in Dublin when I visited last fall.
When the Celtic Tiger was in full roar, many Eastern Europeans were welcomed to Ireland to take the menial jobs which the young Irish no longer wanted or needed. Polish is the second most used language in Ireland now.
The economy has since slowed down, and now the young Irish are competing with the eastern Europeans for jobs. There were also a fair numer of "gypsies" from Romania camping out near the airport and showing up on the streets of downtown Dublin every day to beg. They were offered free airfare back to Romania by an Irish humanitarian group, but refused it.
Re: the Lisbon Treaty vote, the rejection will influence the ratification processes of other countries and effectively kill the Treaty dead. Each member nation of the EU could choose whether to put approval of the Treaty to a popular referendum or to it's ruling parliamentary body. If even ONE country defeats a treaty vote, it fails.
Last time around when the "treaty" was properly labeled as a Constitution, the popular referendums in Holland and France defeated it in 2005. This time, Ireland was the only member which decided to put the matter to a popular vote. Many Brits were already angry because Gordon Browne/Labour had promised them a referendum, but then turned around and agreed to put the Treaty through Parliament instead. The House of Commons has already passed it, and it is scheduled for its final reading in the House of Lords soon.
An international referendums expert said Ireland was unlikely to be offered a second referendum as it was when Ireland rejected the first Nice Treaty in 2001 but approved it in an unprecedented "second vote" a year later. Since individual member state governments negotiated the terms of the Treaty, the Irish reps must have misread the public sentiment of their voters.
In Ireland, many believe that the treaty's complexity and fears about losing Ireland's low corporation tax policies and military neutrality are key factors behind a surge in the opposition.
Since it joined the EU in 1973, Ireland has pocketed billions in grants which have transformed its economy. During the campaign the European Commission agreed a deliberate policy to shelve controversial issues, such as plans for an EU army.
All 27 EU countries must ratify the constitution, which was redrawn and renamed the Lisbon Treaty after French and Dutch voters threw out the original version in 2005.
Hmmmm.
One notices the diving primitive named only two factors for the defeat--the demand that Ireland raise its corporate taxes, and the loss of neutrality.
The diving primitive forgot to mention.....abortion.
xchrom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Fri Jun-13-08 11:12 AM
Response to Reply #5
13. yes -- i knew about ireland --
and i think that europeans are feeling very culturally squeezed -- as well as economically.
i think immigrant fears are behind some of this as well as fear of losing jobs to poland and hungary etc.
however -- there must be some underlying notion that if europe wants to thrive in the future they need greater political and economic consolidation?
the u.s. india and china will tip influence in their own favor as much as possible -- and political and economic influence could slip away.
the world needs an effective and working europe.
Divernan (1000+ posts) Fri Jun-13-08 11:18 AM
Response to Reply #13
14. This treaty was aimed at giving the EU a larger international presence and power.
Overall, I am very impressed with what the EU has accomplished and think the quality of life in the EU is superior to the US. Of couse, the EU is not burdened with the insanely huge military/weapons costs overwhelming the US budget.
Carnea (402 posts) Fri Jun-13-08 12:54 PM
Response to Reply #1
21. It's more anti-gypsy than anti-eastern european overall.
Ireland always had it's Travelers which went around the countryside kidnapping and eating babies (Or so my granny explained) SO gypsy's are nothing new.
Truth be told the anti-gypsy feelings are not without good reason. While one certainly doesn't condone setting fire to their encampments and driving them to the sea. I understand the Irish need to deport them by other means.
But in reality this vote was about a lot of things esp tax policy that could ruin Ireland's economy by raising the corporate tax rate.
edwardlindy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Fri Jun-13-08 09:10 AM
Response to Original message
2. Thanks for the reminder
They'd said earlier today that the low turnout of c. 40% indicated that well may be the outcome.
Goodbye treaty.
Peace Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Fri Jun-13-08 10:49 AM
Response to Reply #2
4. What is the significance of this? I haven't been following it?
And why does it say that only Ireland had held a "public vote"?
Divernan (1000+ posts) Fri Jun-13-08 10:56 AM
Response to Reply #4
6. All the other member states chose a parliamentary process instead.
edwardlindy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Fri Jun-13-08 10:58 AM
Response to Reply #6
8. It woulld be more accurate to say that the governments of all other member states chose a parliamentary process instead. In the UK that was despite a promise to do otherwise.
edwardlindy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Fri Jun-13-08 10:56 AM
Response to Reply #4
7. That's a fact.
We were promised a referendum in the UK but it was scrubbed. It was the governments of all other ET nations that had voted in favour of what in reality was just a name change from the orignal which was rejected by public referendum in both France and Denmark. Only the Ireland gave their population the final say.
BTW - Ireland refers to the Irish Republic : bless 'em.
Divernan (1000+ posts) Fri Jun-13-08 11:04 AM
Response to Reply #7
10. Nope. Denmark rejected the Maastricht Treaty in the early 90's
It was France and Holland/The Netherlands which each rejected the Constitution.
I've spent a lot of time studying the EU, just trying to get a basic understanding and overview - because its institutions and voting formulas are extremely complex. 99.9 percent of the US public have zero, and I do mean ZERO knowledge of it - which is the ultimate example of the narrow worldview of the American public.
My, my, the diving primitive's rather holier-than-thou, isn't he?
edwardlindy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Fri Jun-13-08 11:55 AM
Response to Reply #10
18. Yes - you are of course correct..
I frequently mix up Holland and Denmark. I won't pass comment on the narrow worldview bit other than to say its getting better and doesn't apply much here on DU anyway.
Surely the Eddie primitive jests, commenting that "narrow worldview" doesn't apply to Skins's island.
Carnea (402 posts) Fri Jun-13-08 11:07 AM
Response to Reply #4
11. Ireland was the only country brave enough to allow the people to vote.
England in particular shamefully refused to allow a popular vote.
CountAllVotes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Fri Jun-13-08 12:31 PM
Response to Reply #11
20. they have acted properly IMO
who wants to be a member of something like this. After all, Ireland is a neutral country; always has been and always will be!
A neutral country whose neutrality has been generally protected by British military might.
Dutch (1000+ posts) Fri Jun-13-08 02:10 PM
Response to Reply #11
24. Nothing brave about- their constitution required it.
I don't doubt for a second that Fianna Fail would have weaseled out of having this referendum if it had been at all possible.
Carnea (402 posts) Fri Jun-13-08 02:18 PM
Response to Reply #24
25. I know I know but it makes the rest of Europe look bad
esp. those lying duplicitous British politicians.
Solly Mack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Fri Jun-13-08 11:20 AM
Response to Original message
15. I was there on the 10th and 11th...signs everywhere..people lobbying all over Dublin
mostly those against...
I got one pamphlet...that said Lisbon would "hurt our Christian identity"...I nearly barfed
but it was most educational to be in Dublin just days before the vote and I'm glad I went
lovuian (1000+ posts) Fri Jun-13-08 11:29 AM
Response to Original message
16. YeSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS Thank you Ireland
I love you
I think the primitives should check their "how to think" manual, because some of them have it all wrong.
