The Pilgrims experiment with communal property and socialism ended badly

[Freeper]

True Earthling (524 posts)

The Pilgrims experiment with communal property and socialism ended badly


 
William Bradford was the governor of the Plymouth Colony for 30 years and wrote a journal of their experience. His journal, On Plymouth Plantation, documented the hardships, disputes and progress of the Pilgrims beginning in 1608 until 1647. This passage describes how a parcel of land and the production thereof was assigned to each family. The results were that "women now went willingly into the field and took their little ones with them to set corn" where before the women would complain that children were unable and too weak and "whom to have compelled would have been thought great tyranny and oppression."

Bradford then describes their previous socialist experiment "tried sundry years" "that the taking away of property and bringing in community into a commonwealth would make them happy and flourishing;" "was found to breed much confusion and discontent and retard much employment that would have been to their benefit and comfort." "For the young men, that were most able and fit for labour and service, did repine (complain) that they should spend their time and strength to work for other men's wives and children without any recompense." "And for men's wives to be commanded to do service for other men, as dressing their meat, washing their clothes, etc., they deemed it a kind of slavery,".

CHAPTER 16|Document 1

William Bradford, Of Plymouth Plantation 120--21

1623
All this while no supply was heard of, neither knew they when they might expect any. So they began to think how they might raise as much corn as they could, and obtain a better crop than they had done, that they might not still thus languish in misery. At length, after much debate of things, the Governor (with the advice of the chiefest amongst them) gave way that they should set corn every man for his own particular, and in that regard trust to themselves; in all other things to go on in the general way as before. And so assigned to every family a parcel of land, according to the proportion of their number, for that end, only for present use (but made no division for inheritance) and ranged all boys and youth under some family. This had very good success, for it made all hands very industrious, so as much more corn was planted than otherwise would have been by any means the Governor or any other could use, and saved him a great deal of trouble, and gave far better content. The women now went willingly into the field, and took their little ones with them to set corn; which before would allege weakness and inability; whom to have compelled would have been thought great tyranny and oppression.

The experience that was had in this common course and condition, tried sundry years and that amongst godly and sober men, may well evince the vanity of that conceit of Plato's and other ancients applauded by some of later times; that the taking away of property and bringing in community into a commonwealth would make them happy and flourishing; as if they were wiser than God. For this community (so far as it was) was found to breed much confusion and discontent and retard much employment that would have been to their benefit and comfort. For the young men, that were most able and fit for labour and service, did repine that they should spend their time and strength to work for other men's wives and children without any recompense. The strong, or man of parts, had no more in division of victuals and clothes than he that was weak and not able to do a quarter the other could; this was thought injustice. The aged and graver men to be ranked and equalized in labours and victuals, clothes, etc., with the meaner and younger sort, thought it some indignity and disrespect unto them. And for men's wives to be commanded to do service for other men, as dressing their meat, washing their clothes, etc., they deemed it a kind of slavery, neither could many husbands well brook it. Upon the point all being to have alike, and all to do alike, they thought themselves in the like condition, and one as good as another; and so, if it did not cut off those relations that God hath set amongst men, yet it did at least much diminish and take off the mutual respects that should be preserved amongst them. And would have been worse if they had been men of another condition. Let none object this is men's corruption, and nothing to the course itself. I answer, seeing all men have this corruption in them, God in His wisdom saw another course fitter for them.

http://press-pubs.uchicago.edu/founders/documents/v1ch16s1.html

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10021872141

I'm surprised this post hasn't been hidden due to being rude, insensitive or whatever excuse they use to hide posts.

grantcart (37,769 posts)
1. The greatest secret of the Pilgrims were that they were failed communists.

They also abandoned an idea that doesn't work, unlike you goons who cling to a failed idea, thinking that if only you ran it with your brilliant minds it will work.

Submariner (7,276 posts)
2. The Pilgrims were thieves, liars, cannibals and killers

so it should be no surprise that their experiment ended badly.

Thanksgiving: A National Day of Mourning for Indians

http://bermudaradical.wordpress.com/2011/11/24/thanksgiving-a-national-day-of-mourning-for-indians-2/

I bet you sit home alone on holidays and cry from dawn to dusk.

True Earthling (524 posts)
6. So the failure had nothing to do with the system...

It was the people who failed the system...

Gotcha.

Yep that is what the left believes, the only reason it failed in the past is it wasn't done by the right people.

white_wolf (4,947 posts)
3. How can you have socialism without first having capitalism?

The mere fact that they tried a communal system doesn't mean it was socialism.

Yeah even though it follows the same model that you want so badly today, it really wasn't socialism because the term hadn't been invented yet. 

Flabbergasted (7,507 posts)
13. Propaganda... Right wing source...

Trying to equate socialism with the first year of their colony is lunacy. They didn't have the skills or resources to make a commune work.

Yep they didn't have the brilliant people of DU to run it. 

4th law of robotics (6,652 posts)
28. Ahahahaha

Yes the pilgrims wrote this out centuries ago for foxnews viewers today.

/isn't it funny how every failing of capitalism is capitalism's fault because the system must be flawed but every failing of communism is people's fault since the system is perfect.

Yep you never hear a DUmmy say capitalism would work if only the right people were in charge.

The Midway Rebel (1,711 posts)
18. I've heard this view of the Pilgrims expressed before.

On Fox News.

I have read more excerpts from Bradford's book elsewhere. Things not mentioned here are how Pilgrims did not work in the fields during those years because it was easier and cheaper to steal corn from the Indians and each other. Also, the problem with their communal property scheme was freeloaders not doing their share, as much the egos of young men.

Gee what does that remind you of?
Reminds me of the DUmmies and the 0bamaphone people. They freeload and expect everyone else to do what the deem as their fair share. Yet if you ask them to contribute even a little to their own well being and you are some kind of fascists.

lumberjack_jeff (22,865 posts)
34. Albeit true, the problem is treating this as a parable for modern society.

The solution settled upon by the pilgrims, instead of a system in which the harvest and the game were given to the community to distribute, was a system by which the harvest and the catch were retained by the people responsible for it. That work product was then taxed (by the church) to fulfill the collective needs of the community.

The initial experiment was communism, their solution was socialism.

In fact, the lazy people Bradford complained about were fine with working despite the fact that a large portion of it went to tithe the church.

 

[franksolich]

You know, I think it would be interesting to find out the number of Indians present on the 48 continental states when the Pilgrims landed here.

I'll bet the primitive think it was some really big number, in the tens or even hundreds of millions, of Indians who were dispossessed.

Last I read on the subject, it was estimated to be.....350,000 in 1620, and that number remained pretty much static until the mid-20th century.

In the whole entire continental United States of America.

[Freeper]

You know, I think it would be interesting to find out the number of Indians present on the 48 continental states when the Pilgrims landed here.

I'll bet the primitive think it was some really big number, in the tens or even hundreds of millions, of Indians who were dispossessed.

Last I read on the subject, it was estimated to be.....350,000 in 1620, and that number remained pretty much static until the mid-20th century.

In the whole entire continental United States of America.

You also have to take into account that many Indians were assimilated in to our culture and they married white people so we have Indians like Faxahontas who will be in the Senate soon.

[franksolich]

You also have to take into account that many Indians were assimilated in to our culture and they married white people so we have Indians like Faxahontas who will be in the Senate soon.

Mexico, nadin's homeland, now that's another matter.

As high as 48,000,000 circa 1500.

The weather's better, apparently, down there than up here.

[Freeper]

Mexico, nadin's homeland, now that's another matter.

As high as 48,000,000 circa 1500.

The weather's better, apparently, down there than up here.

Well before the introduction of the SUV and global whatever it's called this week, the weather was perfect in both regions. 

[thundley4]

That story of Thanksgiving sounds a lot like Limbaugh's version.

http://www.rushlimbaugh.com/daily/2012/11/21/the_real_story_of_thanksgiving

[GOP Congress]

That story of Thanksgiving sounds a lot like Limbaugh's version.

http://www.rushlimbaugh.com/daily/2012/11/21/the_real_story_of_thanksgiving

Looks like Ban already beat you to it 

BanTheGOP (927 posts)
37. The account is not correct. It demeans the Native americans who actually saved their white asses

The account is a total fiction, meant to soothe the maniac psyches of the average rethug. In fact, RUSH LIMBAUGH spouts this bit of nonsense EVERY FREAKIN' YEAR to push his capitalism over progressive tenets, even though Snopes has already debunked this nonsense (http://www.snopes.com/holidays/thanksgiving/beliefs.asp).

Word to the wise: Limbaugh should not be considered as a source of support for progressives, including this bit of fiction.

[JohnnyReb]

I read the Snopes "virgin" of the event....only thing close to the truth in it was probably the part about a democrat, FDR, ****ing up a simple republican plan for a holiday.

The last Thursday in November is a lot easier, simpler and more efficient to deal with than the democrat forth Thursday in November. Why, if it weren't for us conservatives being thankful and celebrating Thanksgiving, the DUmmies wouldn't be able to figure out what day it came on.

[Skul]

Historical record is cited.
DUmp is all---
Kill the troll.

[DumbAss Tanker]

You know, I think it would be interesting to find out the number of Indians present on the 48 continental states when the Pilgrims landed here.

I'll bet the primitive think it was some really big number, in the tens or even hundreds of millions, of Indians who were dispossessed.

Last I read on the subject, it was estimated to be.....350,000 in 1620, and that number remained pretty much static until the mid-20th century.

In the whole entire continental United States of America.

I have read that it was in the three million range or upward at the time Columbus discovered America, but of course the introduction of European diseases, particularly measles and smallpox, cut a great swath through the population, killing as many as 9 out of 10 in well-populated areas, which I suppose would leave a residual population that size after the scourging of disease.  From the Mississippi valley eastward, the native population did do a great deal of farming, just not as intensively or technologically sophisticated as the European methods, and it's a bit of a myth that they survived solely by hunting and gathering.

[Freeper]

BanTheGOP (927 posts)
37. The account is not correct. It demeans the Native americans who actually saved their white asses

The account is a total fiction, meant to soothe the maniac psyches of the average rethug. In fact, RUSH LIMBAUGH spouts this bit of nonsense EVERY FREAKIN' YEAR to push his capitalism over progressive tenets, even though Snopes has already debunked this nonsense (http://www.snopes.com/hol.../thanksgiving/beliefs.asp).

Word to the wise: Limbaugh should not be considered as a source of support for progressives, including this bit of fiction.

I clicked the snopes link, it didn't say a thing about this story, it only debunked the menu on that day, and most of us already knew they didn't have turkey and didn't watch football. 

[zeitgeist]

I have read that it was in the three million range or upward at the time Columbus discovered America, but of course the introduction of European diseases, particularly measles and smallpox, cut a great swath through the population, killing as many as 9 out of 10 in well-populated areas, which I suppose would leave a residual population that size after the scourging of disease.  From the Mississippi valley eastward, the native population did do a great deal of farming, just not as intensively or technologically sophisticated as the European methods, and it's a bit of a myth that they survived solely by hunting and gathering.

Ever read about De Soto and his herd of pigs which some suggest introduced disease to the deer populations also helping to kill off the native Americans?  

Here is one link:  http://www.georgiahistory.com/containers/47


ETA yet another:

http://www.nativevillage.org/Archives/2009%20Archives/NOV%20News/Real%20Razorbacks%20First%20Came%20to%20State%20in%201540%20with%20Hernando%20de%20Soto.htm

FWIW I remember first reading about this in the early part of the '90s when the internet was still young.

[GOBUCKS]

Way to go, DeSoto!

And I mean that in a good way.

Had it not been for those diseases, the wars with the indians would have been much bloodier.

Thank God for measles and smallpox.

[AprilRazz]

white_wolf (4,947 posts)
3. How can you have socialism without first having capitalism?

They did try capitalism in 1607 in Virginia and it worked.

[Freeper]

They did try capitalism in 1607 in Virginia and it worked.

Hell capitalism worked pretty well up until its death in 2012. The cancer of liberalism took many years to kill it, even after a short remission now it will dead any day now.

[MrsSmith]

Sometimes the short sighted history that is used to brand all white people as evil does tend to really irritate me.  Yes, white people held slaves.  But white people have also BEEN slaves, and some are still today.  Yes, black people were slaves, but black people also held slaves, and some still do today.  All races have been both enslaved and slave holders. 

Yes, white people brought disease to the New World.  Just as it had been brought to new areas all over the world ever since the Garden was taken away. 

Yes, white people "took" America.  Just as every race has had some members that took from other races (and their own race) and some members that lost out to other races (and members of their own race.)

All through history, people groups have been trading diseases, war, slaves, taking and loosing land, etc. etc. 

The biggest difference is that white people began to look on slavery, the killing of civilians, and other historical horrors with, well, horror, and they began to put an end to them.  Today, there are many people of all races that look upon the slaughter of unborn children with the same horror early Christians looked upon infanticide, and are working hard to wipe out that next level of abuse against other people.  (And look which party is in favor of continuing to inflict horror upon other people...)

[Doc Savage]

First Governor of Massachusetts.  And the trend continues......

[SSG Snuggle Bunny]

Mrs. S.,

It has zip-zero-zilch to do with historical accuracy. The people who peddle this tripe and the people who willingly, happily gobble up lurid tales of racism want one thing:


power


To say, "Your history is inaccurate" will never counter them. It's not an academic exercise.

At the end of the day the sheep that take delight in these stories want one thing: power. They want power over everyone not like them and these fantasies give them that power.

"I am better than you because I decry the racist, slavery of the imperialist America! And since I am better than you I deserve all the power and you none of it because you support racist, slave-holding imerialism!"

And those that peddle the stories will claim they deserve to be in charge because they are the ones who discovered the truth.

This is not an issue of mere ignorance. It is not an innocent mistake. It is as deliberate as the USSR filming a US steel plant closed for Christmas and reporting back home that capitalism is a failure because the steel plants are all closed and Americans aren't working. "We are superior. They are failures. Only a fool would be like them. Anyone who doesn't want us to be Soviets wants people to be out of work and we will punish them for trying to ruin us!"

I know you see this narrative at DU all the time. Anyone not supporting ObamaCoup is morally responsible for killing tens of thousands of uninsured people every year. Some even want legal penalties.

We HAVE to stop acting as if these are innocent oversights and academic lapses.

These are designed to give the Leftists their power by decree and criminalize dissent.