Then, like a dawning ray piercing the murky dark...

[SSG Snuggle Bunny]

dkf  (1000+ posts)        Fri Oct-14-11 11:37 AM
Original message
Labor is not Fungible: problems with the First infrastructure stimulus 
 Dhanson August 31, 2011 at 4:17 pm

Those of us who actually work in industry and are involved in large engineering projects of the type the stimulus was designed to ‘stimulate’ could have told you this without waiting for a study. We tried to. No one was listening.

It is maddening to hear ‘workers’ talked about as if they are interchangeable – Oh, a whole bunch of home construction workers have been layed off? Don’t worry, we’ll build a road or a bridge and employ them!” The only problem being that the type of construction home builders are trained for has nothing to do with bridges. Perhaps people like those in the Obama administration lack the appreciation for the real complexity of these jobs and assume that any blue collar work is trivial and interchangeable with a little retraining, but it’s not the case.

Not only that, but the people who can *start a project are very different than the people needed to bring it to completion, and in general the people needed at the beginning of a project are the least likely to be unemployed. In fact, even in a recession there is a shortage of such people. So it was predictable as rain that new stimulus projects would have to scavenge project leaders, architects, managers, and senior engineers from other existing projects that may have more value. It was absolutely, 100% unavoidable.

Not only that, but it is incredibly destructive: Pulling a manager from an existing project can cause damages far exceeding the salary of that person. If a project manager or architect is enticed away from a project that has a $100,000 per day development cost, and his leaving causes a month of delays while a new manager is found and brought up to speed, that’s a cost that will never show up in the stimulus accounting – but his $150,000 job will be counted as a ‘job created’. No one will know that in addition to the stimulus money used to hire him, the real cost of that job was an additional $3 million dollars. I’ve never seen a single Keynesian model take that kind of destruction of existing projects into account or try to quantify the effect. You’d think this might be important to consider – especially in an era where specialization is so important, where even low-level positions require specialized training.

http://www.thefreemanonline.org/anything-peaceful/labor... 

Fumesucker (1000+ posts)        Fri Oct-14-11 11:54 AM
Response to Original message
1. "We tried to (speak up) but no one was listening."
 I for one am shocked, shocked I tell you, that politicians would not listen to those who indeed know something.

It's talkers versus doers, the talkers always think their input is far more valuable than some grubby lowlife who actually gets their hands dirty while working.

We all know who you're talking about. Just go ahead and say it.

dkf  (1000+ posts)        Fri Oct-14-11 12:05 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. I admit I am one of those people who thought this was a great idea. 
 It's a lot more complicated than I gave it credit for.

I wonder how well politicians are equipped to do this type of planning. 

Dude! Just say the name.

Fumesucker (1000+ posts)        Fri Oct-14-11 12:41 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. The thing about doing real, tangible work is that you can't get away with bullshit indefinitely..
 At some point the project must make real physical progress and it's blatantly obvious if such a project doesn't make progress.

Which makes it totally unlike politics where many, indeed IMO the great majority of, politicians do nothing but spout utter bullshit every time they open their mouths.

I thought the term "shovel ready project" was remarkably clueless the first time I ever heard it.

DUDE! You quote his signature line but all you can indict is the generic "politicians."

Buns_of_Fire (1000+ posts)      Fri Oct-14-11 12:49 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. Most of today's politicians are equipped to do one thing and one thing only.
 That's why they're politicians and not something useful, like a porn star.

Truth is a sombrero. They will dance around it for hours.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x2115115

[Karin]

Oh my God, someone's thinking something through at the DUmp!   

[RWKindaGuy]

Oh my God, someone's thinking something through at the DUmp!   

Stop the presses ... 

[Freeper]

Fumesucker (1000+ posts)        Fri Oct-14-11 11:54 AM
Response to Original message
1. "We tried to (speak up) but no one was listening."
 I for one am shocked, shocked I tell you, that politicians would not listen to those who indeed know something.

It's talkers versus doers, the talkers always think their input is far more valuable than some grubby lowlife who actually gets their hands dirty while working.

Funny we tried to speak up against 0bamacare and you called us racists instead of even bothering to listen to what we were saying was going to happen, which it did. So how does it feel to be ignored?

[Karin]

There's somebody else making sense at the DUmp, can I put it here?  kctim is talking to TNsocialist about revolution, and it's "inconvenience." 

kctim (1000+ posts)      Thu Oct-13-11 02:51 PM
Response to Original message
19. We are nowhere near that point
 not in need for or support of.

OWS does NOT represent 99% of Americans and trying to "shut it ALL down for a while" and creating unnecessary hardship on people will only lead anti OWS protests that will do alot more harm than the police ever thought of.

Their "revolution" will become a civil war and I don't think OWS would like the outcome.

socialist_n_TN  (1000+ posts)      Thu Oct-13-11 02:59 PM
Response to Reply #19
21. And I never said we were near that point............
 But we are getting closer. Eventually it will get to a "Whose side are you on?" moment for the average American. It's inevitable because Wall Street will NOT give up their power without being forced to AND there's no hope for electoral remedies under the current system of money in politics.

BTW, we actually agree that OWS does NOT represent 99% of Americans. I figure it represents to one extent or another, about 65% to 70%.

kctim (1000+ posts)      Thu Oct-13-11 04:39 PM
Response to Reply #21
24. False expectation based on an exaggerated idea of support.
 'Whose side are you on?' will be decided by ones preference of government action, not opinions of Wall Street.

 

25.  Socialist...blahblahblahblahblahblah

kctim (1000+ posts)      Fri Oct-14-11 01:13 PM
Response to Reply #27
39. Good reply
 Which entity, Government or Wall Street, do the people have the best chance to influence? Which one is more likely to have the most NOT influenced by money? Which one do the people have the ability to replace? Government for all three.

We both know there is more to the FDR story than just "serious" pressure by the people. But even so, was FDR a part of government or of Wall Street? Government.
This is also not the 1930s and the American people have NOT shown they are willing to throw away their form of government and replace it with socialism. Sorry, but those are the facts.

 

40.  Socialist
Socialistic Revolution is NEAR blahblahblahblahblahblah

kctim (1000+ posts)      Fri Oct-14-11 04:22 PM
Response to Reply #40
41. We will have to agree to disagree
 I still have faith in our form of government and believe we would have a progressive government if the people voted for one.

There is no way to know how it will all play out, and you have made some very good points and guesses. I am wondering if you have given the millions who would fight for the Constitution any thought? Do you think they would eventually throw away those beliefs and accept socialism?

Not in a million years, pal. 

[Erasmus]

Yet another failure of central planning.