Author Topic: How the West was lost  (Read 904 times)

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Offline Hawk

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How the West was lost
« on: June 25, 2011, 12:50:10 PM »
Western civilization Has over the last few decades become a world of consumerism. Once we were manufacturers, builders, innovators. Those days are all but gone now, we have become just consumers.

Think I’m being harsh? Think again.

I hear the youth of today prattle on about technology. Sure, it has helped make life easier. Maybe too easy. It is getting more difficult with every passing day to find someone who is willing to get dirty, who knows the nuts and bolts of how things work.

When I take my car in for service the mechanics wear those little doctors gloves. Can you believe that? Maybe I can see plumbers wearing some protection since we now have some rather spectacular diseases out there. But an auto mechanic?

Even games kids play today have predictable outcomes. Yes, I am talking about those video games so many are so addicted to. If the least desirable outcome happens, there is a reset button. This allows a second, third, etc chance of winning the game. This is not reality.

Reality doesn’t have a reset button. What are they learning from this? There was a day when things like that didn’t exist. Kids would be outside using their imagination.

A game involving a stick could turn into some kind of crazy invention that had a better than even chance of leaving a scar somewhere on your body. But we didn’t quit, we would make it better.

We were thinking, inventing, doing. We had games like Erector sets, Lincoln Logs, things that required hands on participation and thought.

As the Boomer generation retires and dies off who will fill out shoes? Who will be willing to lay down on a dirty factory floor to keep the equipment running? Who will even know how to?

Real craftsmen are becoming more and more difficult to find. Sub-standard work is more readily accepted now. Why? Because this has to start at a time when one is young. What youth today would rather learn to make woodwork worthy of a gasp from its viewers when they have technology and games?

Who among us today would be willing and able to paint a ceiling so perfect that people would come from every corner of the world to see it and wonder at its glory?

The list goes on and on, but you get the idea. The West will finally be defeated, not by a great army at its borders, but by forgetting how to accomplish things.

Offline Rebel

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Re: How the West was lost
« Reply #1 on: June 25, 2011, 12:54:46 PM »
Western civilization Has over the last few decades become a world of consumerism. Once we were manufacturers, builders, innovators. Those days are all but gone now, we have become just consumers.


Just out of curiosity, who the hell do you think those manufacturers, builders, and innovators were catering to? Do you think Henry Ford invented the assembly line because he was bored?

Manufacturers, Innovators, and Builders don't operate in a vacuum. Progressivism has all but killed innovation. When someone has to pay 50+% of their earnings to the nanny state, there is no reason to work any harder than you have to to survive.
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There's a reason why patriotism is considered a conservative value. Watch a Tea Party rally and you'll see people proudly raising the American flag and showing pride in U.S. heroes such as Thomas Jefferson. Watch an OWS rally and you'll see people burning the American flag while showing pride in communist heroes such as Che Guevera. --Bob, from some news site

Offline Chris_

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Re: How the West was lost
« Reply #2 on: June 25, 2011, 12:56:23 PM »
When I take my car in for service the mechanics wear those little doctors gloves. Can you believe that? Maybe I can see plumbers wearing some protection since we now have some rather spectacular diseases out there. But an auto mechanic?
Because it's convenient?  Washing your hands fifty times a day becomes tedious and gloves allow better grip on greasy tools than dirty hands.  Consider it an improvement.
If you want to worship an orange pile of garbage with a reckless disregard for everything, get on down to Arbys & try our loaded curly fries.

Offline Hawk

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Re: How the West was lost
« Reply #3 on: June 25, 2011, 01:04:55 PM »
Because it's convenient?  Washing your hands fifty times a day becomes tedious and gloves allow better grip on greasy tools than dirty hands.  Consider it an improvement.

I was a building maintenance mechanic and electrician for 25 years and the only time we wore gloves was when we were running a drain snake. But that is only a small part of what I was talking about.

Offline Rebel

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Re: How the West was lost
« Reply #4 on: June 25, 2011, 01:09:03 PM »
If we weren't willing to manufacture anything here, Japan wouldn't be locating their factories here. Why do they do it? Partly due to the "lost decade" and how high their taxes have become coupled with the stability of the United States. We're Japan's "outsourcee", in a sense. The question is, why are our companies moving overseas? When you libs finally come to the realization that every damn tax you place on a corporation has to be passed on to the consumer, you'll finally understand why it's just not economically feasible for them to produce here. Couple that with dumbass union contracts that see nut turners paid 60 dollars and hour and you'll finally have a grasp on what's going on. Our "problem" can be fixed but it takes you libs understanding that taxing a corporation, in an attempt to appease your dumb masses' calls for "soaking the eeeevil rich", is a recipe for economic disaster. It's why we need the Fairtax and the sooner the better.
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There's a reason why patriotism is considered a conservative value. Watch a Tea Party rally and you'll see people proudly raising the American flag and showing pride in U.S. heroes such as Thomas Jefferson. Watch an OWS rally and you'll see people burning the American flag while showing pride in communist heroes such as Che Guevera. --Bob, from some news site

Offline Hawk

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Re: How the West was lost
« Reply #5 on: June 25, 2011, 01:25:15 PM »
If we weren't willing to manufacture anything here, Japan wouldn't be locating their factories here. Why do they do it? Partly due to the "lost decade" and how high their taxes have become coupled with the stability of the United States. We're Japan's "outsourcee", in a sense. The question is, why are our companies moving overseas? When you libs finally come to the realization that every damn tax you place on a corporation has to be passed on to the consumer, you'll finally understand why it's just not economically feasible for them to produce here. Couple that with dumbass union contracts that see nut turners paid 60 dollars and hour and you'll finally have a grasp on what's going on. Our "problem" can be fixed but it takes you libs understanding that taxing a corporation, in an attempt to appease your dumb masses' calls for "soaking the eeeevil rich", is a recipe for economic disaster. It's why we need the Fairtax and the sooner the better.

Corporations are outsourcing to developing countries who have far less stringent EPA laws and a far cheaper labor force. Their concern is the bottom line. IMO a heavier tax should be placed on the companies that do outsource jobs.

EPA laws combined with high pay scales have caused a lot of problems, yes. While some of both of those need to be curtailed, the corporations still need to try to compromise on the issue instead of just bailing out. I don't see any of these options happening.

If Congress fails to raise the debt ceiling it may all be a moot point anyway.

Americans have become pretty spoiled, demanding 'The American Dream' and not being willing to produce fair work for fair pay. It has gotten so bad that if this country lost it's illegal workforce our economy, what's left of it, would tank overnight.

I guess I miss the days where loyalty between a worker and the company was a two way street. Each knew the other would take of the other. It seems both are in it for themselves today, which I suppose is just a part of the natural progression of things.

Oh, and I'm not a lib.

Offline Rebel

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Re: How the West was lost
« Reply #6 on: June 25, 2011, 01:36:17 PM »
Corporations are outsourcing to developing countries who have far less stringent EPA laws and a far cheaper labor force. Their concern is the bottom line. IMO a heavier tax should be placed on the companies that do outsource jobs.

....and you'll see even more jobs going overseas. When are you people going to get it through your heads that a tax on a business or corporation is nothing but an additional tax on the citizenry? As for our EPA laws, we have some seriously f'ed up EPA laws on the books. Many times they're not about protecting the environment, but pandering to a group with an anti-Capitalistic agenda. Our government is the reason jobs are going overseas. Our government is the entity that has turned the pro-business environment we had into one that is hostile to private business.

There needs to be NO corporate tax and the EPA, if not disbanded, needs some sanity to cleanse it's idiotic laws. A sucker fish or stupid lizard that can't survive will just have to suffer Darwin's findings. ....it's not like it's never happened before. Animals have been going extinct since the beginning of life on this planet. ...and I'd just as soon rather a f'n lizard go extinct than the human race. I understand about balance, but some of the shit they pass is beyond stupid.
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There's a reason why patriotism is considered a conservative value. Watch a Tea Party rally and you'll see people proudly raising the American flag and showing pride in U.S. heroes such as Thomas Jefferson. Watch an OWS rally and you'll see people burning the American flag while showing pride in communist heroes such as Che Guevera. --Bob, from some news site

Offline redwhit

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Re: How the West was lost
« Reply #7 on: June 25, 2011, 01:37:21 PM »
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Corporations are outsourcing to developing countries who have far less stringent EPA laws and a far cheaper labor force. Their concern is the bottom line. IMO a heavier tax should be placed on the companies that do outsource jobs.

Absolutely not.  Bigger government does nothing but strive to make itself even bigger.  Telling corporations what to do only results in their finding more loopholes and having even less incentive to stay.  Social engineering through taxation may work in Europe but we are not Europe.  

Lessen the resistance to making a profit and companies will build, create, expand, and pay their taxes.  

Offline Rebel

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Re: How the West was lost
« Reply #8 on: June 25, 2011, 01:47:19 PM »
Absolutely not.  Bigger government does nothing but strive to make itself even bigger.  Telling corporations what to do only results in their finding more loopholes and having even less incentive to stay.  Social engineering through taxation may work in Europe but we are not Europe.  

Actually, Greece may disagree with you. As would Portugal, Spain, and, coming soon, the Netherlands.
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There's a reason why patriotism is considered a conservative value. Watch a Tea Party rally and you'll see people proudly raising the American flag and showing pride in U.S. heroes such as Thomas Jefferson. Watch an OWS rally and you'll see people burning the American flag while showing pride in communist heroes such as Che Guevera. --Bob, from some news site

Offline redwhit

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Re: How the West was lost
« Reply #9 on: June 25, 2011, 01:58:04 PM »
Actually, Greece may disagree with you. As would Portugal, Spain, and, coming soon, the Netherlands.

You're right - I was setting up for a bad joke and the damn phone rang.   :-) 

Offline Doc

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Re: How the West was lost
« Reply #10 on: June 25, 2011, 01:59:55 PM »
Corporations are outsourcing to developing countries who have far less stringent EPA laws and a far cheaper labor force. Their concern is the bottom line. IMO a heavier tax should be placed on the companies that do outsource jobs.

All that will accomplish is forcing the entire corporation offshore.........they are then capable through free trade agreements to import their products and keep their revenues at a minimum level of taxation.......all wealth is "portable"

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EPA laws combined with high pay scales have caused a lot of problems, yes. While some of both of those need to be curtailed, the corporations still need to try to compromise on the issue instead of just bailing out. I don't see any of these options happening.

Corporations are, by definition, profit driven, they are not benevolent organizations. Over the decades they have "compromised" to unions, and regulators to the point where their products cannot compete. The days of compromise are over.......if the US doesn't offer a stable environment for business, they will take it elsewhere.  In the micro a good example is California........laying an onerous level of taxation and regulation on business to the extent that they are fleeing the state in droves, same for Illinois.

The key word in the above statement is "stable".......corporations plan product development and manufacture years in advance of products hitting the street.  They can't afford the political environment that exists in the US today.  For a few years we will have a business friendly conservative government, and then the voters will throw a tantrum and elect a bunch like the current crop, who think that business is the bad guy, and heap on "Health care", draconian EPA requirements, and taxes........no way a business can plan successfully in an environment like that. Therefore, they simply maximize their current operations, or go elsewhere.

The problem with stimulating business isn't "compromise"......it's the American voter.  Four decades ago, even the Democrats were "business friendly" to an extent, until the "progressives" took control.  In our system we need for the arc of the political pendulum to be smaller, with less impact on the economy. Sadly, the solution to that is the extermination of "progressives" as a political reality.

Let's look for a moment at that "political pendulum".......as it passes center and swings right, the business environment improves........regardless of how far right (even to the extreme), it goes, the taxation, capital flow, regulation, and legal environment remains pro-business.

On the other hand, when it swings to the left......it doesn't have very far to go before it hits Keynesian economics, "tax the rich", protect the snail darters at all costs", cap and trade", and all the way to national healthcare.  moratoriums on petroleum exploration and production, plus the folly of "green energy".  The two present political positions are never going to be reconciled.

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If Congress fails to raise the debt ceiling it may all be a moot point anyway.

Americans have become pretty spoiled, demanding 'The American Dream' and not being willing to produce fair work for fair pay. It has gotten so bad that if this country lost it's illegal workforce our economy, what's left of it, would tank overnight.

I agree with MOST of this statement, however, if all of the illegals were gone, the cost of having them here would offset the loss of productivity. They are basically ignorant, unskilled workers.......reforming welfare (yet again) would solve the manpower shortfall quickly.

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I guess I miss the days where loyalty between a worker and the company was a two way street. Each knew the other would take of the other. It seems both are in it for themselves today, which I suppose is just a part of the natural progression of things.

I, too bemoan that loss, however it is the result of degradation of the system by both sides. Unions contributed much to the adversarial relationship, as have various "anti-discrimination" laws and regulations.

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Oh, and I'm not a lib.

I would agree with that as well.....

doc
« Last Edit: June 25, 2011, 02:38:00 PM by TVDOC »

Offline IassaFTots

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Re: How the West was lost
« Reply #11 on: June 25, 2011, 02:35:34 PM »
Because it's convenient?  Washing your hands fifty times a day becomes tedious and gloves allow better grip on greasy tools than dirty hands.  Consider it an improvement.

Meh.  I like the look of a working hand.   :-)
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Offline rich_t

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Re: How the West was lost
« Reply #12 on: June 25, 2011, 02:51:19 PM »
Because it's convenient?  Washing your hands fifty times a day becomes tedious and gloves allow better grip on greasy tools than dirty hands.  Consider it an improvement.

Not to mention washing that often with a commercial grade soap (like you need to get grease and road grime off of your hands) can really tear up your skin.
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Offline TVDOC

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Re: How the West was lost
« Reply #13 on: June 25, 2011, 03:03:34 PM »
Not to mention washing that often with a commercial grade soap (like you need to get grease and road grime off of your hands) can really tear up your skin.

I have yet to see an auto mechanic wearing gloves.......must be a new thing.  The techs that work on my car don't.

When I work on it myself, I wash them when I take a break, or when I'm finished.  Only a mechanic with OCD would wash their hands fifty times a day.

 :mental:

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Offline IassaFTots

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Re: How the West was lost
« Reply #14 on: June 25, 2011, 03:08:07 PM »
I have yet to see an auto mechanic wearing gloves.......must be a new thing.  The techs that work on my car don't.

When I work on it myself, I wash them when I take a break, or when I'm finished.  Only a mechanic with OCD would wash their hands fifty times a day.

 :mental:

doc

H5.   :-)
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Offline Attero Dominatus

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Re: How the West was lost
« Reply #15 on: June 25, 2011, 03:19:13 PM »
Western civilization Has over the last few decades become a world of consumerism. Once we were manufacturers, builders, innovators. Those days are all but gone now, we have become just consumers.
Without consumers, the innovators and manufacturers have no incentive. Also, regressivism has killed innovation, not technology. Wealth redistribution, unionism, keneysian economics.
Those who would trade their liberty for temporary security will get neither. --Benjamin Franklin.

Offline rich_t

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Re: How the West was lost
« Reply #16 on: June 25, 2011, 03:53:05 PM »
I have yet to see an auto mechanic wearing gloves.......must be a new thing.  The techs that work on my car don't.

When I work on it myself, I wash them when I take a break, or when I'm finished.  Only a mechanic with OCD would wash their hands fifty times a day.

 :mental:

doc

I've noticed it recently when getting my oil changed.  I want any mechanic that is going to road test my car after a repair job to wash his hands before he does though.  I don't need oil/grease/other crap on my steering wheel.
"The American people will never knowingly adopt socialism. But, under the name of 'liberalism,' they will adopt every fragment of the socialist program, until one day America will be a socialist nation, without knowing how it happened." --Norman Thomas, 1944

Offline Chris_

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Re: How the West was lost
« Reply #17 on: June 25, 2011, 04:42:31 PM »
Meh.  I like the look of a working hand.   :-)
The directors and VPs where I work would disagree with you.  I like working on my cars but I like being employed better. :tongue:

Ever read the warning label on a bottle of brake fluid?  I'm not a big fan of hygroscopic fluids that can leech into the skin and cause liver and neurological damage.  Used automotive fluids are toxic.
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Offline namvet

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Re: How the West was lost
« Reply #18 on: June 25, 2011, 05:05:11 PM »
The directors and VPs where I work would disagree with you.  I like working on my cars but I like being employed better. :tongue:

Ever read the warning label on a bottle of brake fluid?  I'm not a big fan of hygroscopic fluids that can leech into the skin and cause liver and neurological damage.  Used automotive fluids are toxic.

that's what I was gonna say. Toxic fluids.

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Offline LC EFA

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Re: How the West was lost
« Reply #19 on: June 25, 2011, 06:09:45 PM »
Western civilization Has over the last few decades become a world of consumerism. Once we were manufacturers, builders, innovators. Those days are all but gone now, we have become just consumers.

Think I’m being harsh? Think again.

Yes, we're consumers - but it's still the western world that demands, thinks , creates and innovates. We just get another place to produce what we've created because the price of labour and regulatory compliance makes local production unprofitable.

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I hear the youth of today prattle on about technology. Sure, it has helped make life easier. Maybe too easy. It is getting more difficult with every passing day to find someone who is willing to get dirty, who knows the nuts and bolts of how things work.

Knowing the nuts and bolts is much more difficult today - How many people would have the tools and knowledge to  do component level repairs on a modern telephone vs an old rotary dial phone. How many people could be assed to do so when a replacement is a short drive and small spend away.

Not many people have the tools or skills to work on modern computerised vehicles, and very few have the space or motivation to do so.

This trend will continue and deepen as the complexity and integration of technology into daily life continues.

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When I take my car in for service the mechanics wear those little doctors gloves. Can you believe that? Maybe I can see plumbers wearing some protection since we now have some rather spectacular diseases out there. But an auto mechanic?

Lotta "manual"  trades wear gloves these days - like police and EMS ,  fibreglassers , boilermakers , garden maintenance and so on. Often this is a requirement of their insurance company and the OHSA / WHS regulations as well as being a convenience thing.

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Even games kids play today have predictable outcomes. Yes, I am talking about those video games so many are so addicted to. If the least desirable outcome happens, there is a reset button. This allows a second, third, etc chance of winning the game. This is not reality.

Reality doesn’t have a reset button. What are they learning from this? There was a day when things like that didn’t exist. Kids would be outside using their imagination.

A game involving a stick could turn into some kind of crazy invention that had a better than even chance of leaving a scar somewhere on your body. But we didn’t quit, we would make it better.

Entertainment such as video games is all about escaping reality for a brief period.

It'd be nice to think that the youth of today could get on their bikes , and head down the local creek for a swim , rock fight or spot of fishing but increasing urbanisation, crime and ready access to electronic entertainment makes that a non-option.

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We were thinking, inventing, doing. We had games like Erector sets, Lincoln Logs, things that required hands on participation and thought.

As the Boomer generation retires and dies off who will fill out shoes? Who will be willing to lay down on a dirty factory floor to keep the equipment running? Who will even know how to?

Real craftsmen are becoming more and more difficult to find. Sub-standard work is more readily accepted now. Why? Because this has to start at a time when one is young. What youth today would rather learn to make woodwork worthy of a gasp from its viewers when they have technology and games?

Who among us today would be willing and able to paint a ceiling so perfect that people would come from every corner of the world to see it and wonder at its glory?

The list goes on and on, but you get the idea. The West will finally be defeated, not by a great army at its borders, but by forgetting how to accomplish things.

I think that western society needs to harden the **** up if it is to survive.

Our labour force is soft, overpaid, and often specialised to the point where they're useless outside a very narrow field.

Offline JohnnyReb

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Re: How the West was lost
« Reply #20 on: June 25, 2011, 06:16:00 PM »

I think that western society needs to harden the **** up if it is to survive.

Our labour force is soft, overpaid, and often specialised to the point where they're useless outside a very narrow field.

"Good enough for government work and government workers" that's the standards we're heading to.

This is sort of off topic but parallels this thread. It's another attempt by government to screw up good things.

 http://americasright.com/2009/03/30/sen-jim-demint-on-the-national-service-act/
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Offline IassaFTots

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Re: How the West was lost
« Reply #21 on: June 26, 2011, 08:57:50 AM »
The directors and VPs where I work would disagree with you.  I like working on my cars but I like being employed better. :tongue:

Ever read the warning label on a bottle of brake fluid?  I'm not a big fan of hygroscopic fluids that can leech into the skin and cause liver and neurological damage.  Used automotive fluids are toxic.

I wasn't saying NEVER wash your hands.   :thatsright: 

I am saying if a man's hands are smoother than my own, well that ain't right.  :-)

R.I.P. LC and Crockspot.  Miss you guys.

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“Political Correctness is about turning a blind eye to painful reality because your comfortable feelings are more important to you than saving lives and providing quality of life to people who work their ass off to be productive and are a benefit to this great American Dream"  ~Ted Nugent

Offline Hawk

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Re: How the West was lost
« Reply #22 on: June 26, 2011, 11:01:53 AM »
I will respond when I'm not hungover. So, tomorrow afternoon.  :tongue:

Offline Hawk

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Re: How the West was lost
« Reply #23 on: June 28, 2011, 11:44:00 AM »
Yes, we're consumers - but it's still the western world that demands, thinks , creates and innovates. We just get another place to produce what we've created because the price of labour and regulatory compliance makes local production unprofitable.

We are now a service industry. I think this will bite us in the ass one day.

Knowing the nuts and bolts is much more difficult today - How many people would have the tools and knowledge to  do component level repairs on a modern telephone vs an old rotary dial phone. How many people could be assed to do so when a replacement is a short drive and small spend away.

I agree, we have become addicted to a 'disposable' lifestyle. Once, long ago I used to troubleshoot a computer down to component level, now we have board replacers.

Not many people have the tools or skills to work on modern computerised vehicles, and very few have the space or motivation to do so.

I know, I look under the hood of the newer cars and get dizzy just trying to figure out how to get the stuff out of the way to even see the engine.

This trend will continue and deepen as the complexity and integration of technology into daily life continues.

Lotta "manual"  trades wear gloves these days - like police and EMS ,  fibreglassers , boilermakers , garden maintenance and so on. Often this is a requirement of their insurance company and the OHSA / WHS regulations as well as being a convenience thing.

I can easily see why police, EMS, and people like that wear gloves. There are way too many really spooky diseases out there today.

Entertainment such as video games is all about escaping reality for a brief period.

It'd be nice to think that the youth of today could get on their bikes , and head down the local creek for a swim , rock fight or spot of fishing but increasing urbanisation, crime and ready access to electronic entertainment makes that a non-option.

I think that western society needs to harden the **** up if it is to survive.

Our labour force is soft, overpaid, and often specialised to the point where they're useless outside a very narrow field.

The key words are 'for a brief time'. Hell, even adults are addicted to games like WOW.

Around here the kids do still get out and play. We have to drive very carefully through the trailerhood.

We have become soft, and it's getting worse. When I worked at Martin Marietta I once saw a rocket scientist (a real one) come out of the building on a weekend. There were only about 10 cars in the parking lot, and he couldn't find his. In the late 80's this guy was knocking down 6 figures and couldn't pour piss out of a boot with the instructions on the heel.

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Re: How the West was lost
« Reply #24 on: June 28, 2011, 02:47:05 PM »
You know......the one factor that I rarely/never see discussed when we (and others) bemoan the loss of industrial jobs in this country is those lost to automation, and technology.

Back in the 60's when I first went to work in an industrial plant (as a student, part time), that plant employed nearly 7,000 workers on three shifts......five and six days a week.  Today a plant producing even more of the same product employs slightly over 1,500 workers (and the product is much more complex than it was back in the "good old days").

Unskilled, semiskilled, and even skilled workers (such as welders), have been replaced by robotics and computer-driven machines, with considerably higher consistency and overall quality of the product.

Of course this opened up an entirely new field of "service economy" jobs to build and maintain the automation, requiring different and sometimes considerably more complex skillsets.

Certainly outsourcing has an effect, however I'd hazard a guess that the industrial jobs here in the US haven't really left, they've merely changed.....and continue changing.

Economics (taxes, regulation) play a significant role in such decisions, however for the worker....it's adapt or die......not exactly a new concept.

doc
"Study the past if you wish to define the future"

Confucius