over lunch, primitives discuss Afghanistan

[franksolich]

http://demopedia.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x7687701

Oh my.

The tempo of the latest fund-driver has slown down this afternoon, and so it's another chance to remind the non-donating primitives of their remissness.

Nuclear Unicorn (776 posts)      Wed Feb-10-10 04:47 PM
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Original message

Troubling Lunch Convo, RE: Afghanistan

Co-workers and I are having lunch. Today we're talking about the war in Afghanistan.

The initial consensus is that we don't like the attack about to go down in Helmand province. Lots of innocent people trapped and almost certain to be hurt.

Someone tried to offer the salve that the drone strikes at least have the "virtue" of keeping our troops from harm's way. I object saying that they aren't good for much except killing civilians because you can't see who you're shooting at, just a house (and that ain't good).

Anyhoo..

Another person at the table says we probably can see what we're shooting at because Special Forces would probably be skulking around looking for targets now that we've stopped waterboarding people for intel. (IMPLICATION: those we killed with drone strikes before were killed because people were being waterboarded until they gave up names.)

If this is true that measn Special Forces are in Pakistan.

Is this true?

Is this a redux of Cambodia?

If so, why is Obama allowing this?

Do the congressional oversight committees know?

If so, why are they allowing it?

tekisui  (1000+ posts)        Wed Feb-10-10 04:53 PM
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Response to Original message

1. Three US troops were killed by a bomb in Pakistan a couple of weeks ago. We have a presence there, the US operates its drones from a Pakistani airfield. We are also building a billion dollar embassy in Pakistan that will rival the Iraq city/embassy. There is no telling what else is going on there.

Nuclear Unicorn (776 posts)      Wed Feb-10-10 04:54 PM
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Response to Reply #1

2. So even if it's an "ally" the MIC just pushes its way in to wherever the MIC wants to go?

mdmc  (1000+ posts)        Wed Feb-10-10 04:56 PM
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THE MAD NEWBURGH PRIMITIVE
Response to Reply #2

3. yup

according to John Yoo and Obama is okay w. it..

Nuclear Unicorn (776 posts)      Wed Feb-10-10 04:58 PM
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Response to Reply #3

5. Would I be out of line if I said...

A-a-a-a-argh!

Hell Hath No Fury  (1000+ posts)        Wed Feb-10-10 04:59 PM
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Response to Reply #2

6. We drove the crazies further into Pakistan --

and they are the ones left dealing with the bombings and killings that generated.  I suspect that many in the Pakisatn government are happy to have us in there cleaning up the mess we created. And I am sure there are others who view us as only destabilizing their o****ry.

We just gave Pakistan a buttload of money -- enough to buy our presence on their soil, if you kmnow what I mean.

G_j  (1000+ posts)      Wed Feb-10-10 05:11 PM
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Response to Reply #1

9. and that is a big problem for the Pakistan government which has told its' people no US troops were allowed to operate there.

SteppingRazor  (1000+ posts)      Wed Feb-10-10 04:57 PM
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Response to Original message

4. It's a known fact that we have at least 70 soldiers in Pakistan as "advisors."

Source: http://www.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/asiapcf/02/03/pakistan.bl...

"The U.S. troops are among a group of about 70 U.S. military personnel that have been training Pakistani troops."

One other point, as far as your contention that Predators can't see their targets. In general, that's not true. Before a strike, Predators have often been watching their targets for days, even weeks, at a time. They've seen their targets with weapons, they've seen their targets planting road side bombs. Esquire magazine had a pretty good article about all this a couple months ago:

http://www.esquire.com/features/unmanned-aircraft-1109

Nuclear Unicorn (776 posts)      Wed Feb-10-10 05:00 PM
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Response to Reply #4

7. But are these troops conducting combat missions?

There's a big difference between teaching other people's soldiers how to march and then going out and killing their citizens.

SteppingRazor  (1000+ posts)      Wed Feb-10-10 05:07 PM
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Response to Reply #7

8. No. I think it's pretty safe to say that these 70 troops are not conducting combat missions.

They are attached to the Pakistani military. It'd be difficult for them to go tear-assing through the countryside executing Taliban without quite a few people noticing.

That said, JSOC (the Joint Special Operations Command) is almost certainly inside Pakistan, as reported by The Nation: http://www.thenation.com/doc/20091207/scahill

And while there haven't been any reports to the effect, it'd be silly to assume the CIA's SAD (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_Activities_Divisio... ) doesn't have a pretty heavy hand in the country as well.

The idea that we stay out of other sovereign nations, even so-called "allies," is kind of naive. We've got CIA all over the world, and they'd certainly be in trouble spots like Pakistan.

Nuclear Unicorn (776 posts)      Wed Feb-10-10 05:13 PM
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Response to Reply #8

10. Oh, OK, as long as it's Blackwater then i guess they're not really US troops...

...and it's not really another invasion of other people's homes.

SteppingRazor  (1000+ posts)      Wed Feb-10-10 05:21 PM
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Response to Reply #10

11. Preaching to the choir. I mean, I wouldn't necessarily call our presence in Pakistan an "invasion".. but it certainly rubs up against Pakistani sovereignty -- always assuming, of course, that Pakistan's government is unaware of any of our doings in the country, which is a question certainly up for debate. It could very well be that the Pakistani government is aware of a great deal of what we do there, as far as militarily.

With regards to the CIA, eh, it's dirty and it's disgusting, but it's not as though it's unusual. Like I said, we've got spies in even our most closely allied countries, so why wouldn't we have them in Pakistan? Israel's one of our closest allies, and yet we've caught numerous people in the U.S. spying for them. Normal rules of diplomacy don't apply to intelligence work.

Nuclear Unicorn (776 posts)      Wed Feb-10-10 05:24 PM
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Response to Reply #11

12. Even if they did know I'm sure it was...

...an offer they couldn't refuse.

"...it's not as though it's unusual."

Cold comfort. Not mad at you, just the manifest unfairness of it all.

SteppingRazor  (1000+ posts)      Wed Feb-10-10 05:29 PM
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Response to Reply #12

13. I understand. It's a shitty world, we just live in it.

And, as is always the case with intelligence work, it's not as though you don't want it collected. I mean, if people are really out there plotting the next 9/11, I'd like our government to know about it, you know? At the same time, I don't want to see us staging coups, massacring innocent civilians in overreaching military plans, and all the other horror shows that seem to go hand in hand with getting the CIA heavily involved in a country.

You know, I suspect the "lunchtime" conversation was made up.

Who discusses Afghanistan over lunch?

[Mike220]

Didn't Obambi come out and explicitly say he would take the fight to Pakistan (or Pockiston as he pronounces it)?

I recall something like that.

[franksolich]

Didn't Obambi come out and explicitly say he would take the fight to Pakistan (or Pockiston as he pronounces it)?

I recall something like that.

Yeah, he did.

I'm still having a problem, however, with this story, this notion that a bunch of temporaries, or contract workers, discussing Afghanistan over lunch.

[The Village Idiot]

I have no doubt we have ground forces in Pakistan... weren't some killed by an IED about two weeks ago?

[GOBUCKS]

Yeah, he did.

I'm still having a problem, however, with this story, this notion that a bunch of temporaries, or contract workers, discussing Afghanistan over lunch.

No, at a lunch table full of minimum-wage temps, the hot topic of conversation is almost certainly going to be operations in Helmand province.

This unicorn character is just a faceless, anonymous DUmmy of no significance whatsoever, but this is a bouncy tale that shows some promise. If he keeps this up for a few thousand more posts, someday he could be somebody.