Government-Run Rail System Losing $32 per Passenger, Study Shows

[Chris_]

Government-Run Rail System Losing $32 per Passenger, Study Shows

Washington (AP) - U.S. taxpayers spent about $32 subsidizing the cost of the typical Amtrak passenger in 2008, about four times the rail operator's estimate, according to a private study.
 
Amtrak operates a nationwide rail network, serving more than 500 destinations in 46 states. Forty-one of Amtrak's 44 routes lost money in 2008, said the study by Subsidyscope, an arm of the Pew Charitable Trusts.
 
Stephen Van Beek, president of the Eno Transportation Foundation, a think tank, said the analysis could help guide decisions on how to spend $8 billion set aside for high-speed and intercity rail in a $787 billion economic stimulus bill. Rail planners may decide that spending the funds on high-speed rail makes more sense than slower intercity rail, which the Amtrak numbers show need higher subsidies.
 
*snip*

The Government Accountability Office had previously said the omission of depreciation substantially understates the capital expenses associated with Amtrak's routes.
 
Amtrak officials said they're working with the Transportation Department to come up with a fair way to determine capital expenses but the method used in the report unfairly burden routes whose equipment was sold and then leased back.

...but Bella Pelosi says government run programs are always more efficient. 

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[ironhorsedriver]

To be honest though, every passenger rail system worldwide is Government subsidised. Amtrak does provide transportation to people in a lot of rural areas who otherwise would not have access to interstate transportation.

[NHSparky]

I dunno--I can still get to NYC, Washington DC, or pretty much anywhere in the country cheaper on an airplane (oh, and faster with more convenient schedules) than I could ever hope to on a train, even here in the rail-rich New England corridor.

Here to Boston for a day trip, I'll consider it.  Otherwise, it's the take your shoes off stuff your shit in one bag so you don't get nailed with baggage fees airport shuffle.

[Carl]

In and around urban areas it might pay its own way but out in rural areas there is unlikely ever to be enough passengers to make it profitable.
You would have to make it illegal to drive yourself in a privately owned car,end service from bus or air lines or make them charge higher fares and then tax the increase away to pay for the government funded train system.
Hell,just nationalize the whole transportation system so that a government worker can determine how badly you need to go to someplace.

Sounds sort of like what they want to do with healthcare now doesn`t it?

[JohnnyReb]

What they need is a true high speed rail service that is convienent and safe.

A train that runs on a giant steel "H" beam with replaceable wear surfaces. Coaches for the long distance 'walking' class and then some flat cars with dividers for short and long haul 'cars'. The flat cars would be made so you could drive your car off the loading platform onto the flat car with ease and out the other side at your departure point. Average speed between points should be around 200 mph and 250 mph for the longer hauls. Say New York to Miami = 6 hours. New York to L.A. = 12 hours.

That type of service and times would compete with Air travel.

[bkg]

To be honest though, every passenger rail system worldwide is Government subsidised. Amtrak does provide transportation to people in a lot of rural areas who otherwise would not have access to interstate transportation.

Completely disagree with the highlighted. Completely disagree.

I'm tired of subsiding mass transit... MN loses over $10M/year on the light rail... so what are they doing? Spending $1.2B+ on a new rail. We lose about the same on MTC. Funny thing, when it was private, it was profitable.

I want my money back, dammit!

[Carl]

What they need is a true high speed rail service that is convienent and safe.

A train that runs on a giant steel "H" beam with replaceable wear surfaces. Coaches for the long distance 'walking' class and then some flat cars with dividers for short and long haul 'cars'. The flat cars would be made so you could drive your car off the loading platform onto the flat car with ease and out the other side at your departure point. Average speed between points should be around 200 mph and 250 mph for the longer hauls. Say New York to Miami = 6 hours. New York to L.A. = 12 hours.

That type of service and times would compete with Air travel.

It would still have to work like the airlines do where they funnel passengers from remote places into hubs to create as close to full flights as possible to other somewhat remote places.
It could be done I guess although the taking your own car would not be possible given the logistics of switching trains with one.
There would still be layovers of differing lengths as the process of getting passengers from all over the northeast and northwest to travel to St Louis for example occurs.

[franksolich]

What they need is a true high speed rail service that is convienent and safe.

A train that runs on a giant steel "H" beam with replaceable wear surfaces. Coaches for the long distance 'walking' class and then some flat cars with dividers for short and long haul 'cars'. The flat cars would be made so you could drive your car off the loading platform onto the flat car with ease and out the other side at your departure point. Average speed between points should be around 200 mph and 250 mph for the longer hauls. Say New York to Miami = 6 hours. New York to L.A. = 12 hours.

That type of service and times would compete with Air travel.

Oh now, John, sir, you're forgetting history, even though it ran right through your own neighborhood.

For the longest time, when the railways operated their own passenger trains (i.e., before 1971), the Seaboard Coast Line (a merger of the old Seaboard Air Line railway and the old Atlantic Coast railway) ran trains between New York City and Miami with cars that carried passengers' cars.

[JohnnyReb]

Oh now, John, sir, you're forgetting history, even though it ran right through your own neighborhood.

For the longest time, when the railways operated their own passenger trains (i.e., before 1971), the Seaboard Coast Line (a merger of the old Seaboard Air Line railway and the old Atlantic Coast railway) ran trains between New York City and Miami with cars that carried passengers' cars.

My uncle was a conductor on some of those trains.....they ran within a half mile of my grandparents home. The Silver Comet and the Silver Meteor highballing it thru the Carolina sandhills......still way to slow.

And to answer Carl. It would take a lot of rolling stock and large, looooong train terminals to do what I envision. The trains would pull in and uncouple from the cars to be left behind and reassemble quickly with those heading on down the track. Each flat car would have it's own computers for directions and electric motors for side tracking/shifting/reassembly and  to assist travel speed. The locomotive part would contain a central computer and serve to get the whole mess up to top speed. Electricity would be obtained from electrical circuits attached to the "H" beam rail.
The whole thing would be elevated 10 to 15 feet above ground and over or under all roads, animal crossings, utilities, etc.

[Carl]

My uncle was a conductor on some of those trains.....they ran within a half mile of my grandparents home. The Silver Comet and the Silver Meteor highballing it thru the Carolina sandhills......still way to slow.

And to answer Carl. It would take a lot of rolling stock and large, looooong train terminals to do what I envision. The trains would pull in and uncouple from the cars to be left behind and reassemble quickly with those heading on down the track. Each flat car would have it's own computers for directions and electric motors for side tracking/shifting/reassembly and  to assist travel speed. The locomotive part would contain a central computer and serve to get the whole mess up to top speed. Electricity would be obtained from electrical circuits attached to the "H" beam rail.
The whole thing would be elevated 10 to 15 feet above ground and over or under all roads, animal crossings, utilities, etc.

Given that though could it be made economical to offset that expense and also be competitive with airline or bus.
Not arguing with you but it also proves that Amtrack is an anachronism being propped up by the government for a variety of reasons which have nothing to do with viable transportation.
Namely providing subsidized transportation for a large urban voting block.

[JohnnyReb]

Given that though could it be made economical to offset that expense and also be competitive with airline or bus.
Not arguing with you but it also proves that Amtrack is an anachronism being propped up by the government for a variety of reasons which have nothing to do with viable transportation.
Namely providing subsidized transportation for a large urban voting block.

True.....and the days of 2 steel rails on wooden crossties are ....are.....well, in the past. It's time for a whole rethinking of rail service or time to abandon the rest of the tracks....which has been happening quite often around here.

Hey Frank and Carl. Look up the L7C Railroad or maybe the Lancaster Chester Railroad. It used to be the most profitable one in the US. The "Colonel" was at a big railroad meeting once and the other railroad exc's. were giving him a hard time about his railroad being rather short. He answered with something like, "It may be short but it's just as wide." 

[franksolich]

True.....and the days of 2 steel rails on wooden crossties are ....are.....well, in the past. It's time for a whole rethinking of rail service or time to abandon the rest of the tracks....which has been happening quite often around here.

Hey Frank and Carl. Look up the L7C Railroad or maybe the Lancaster Chester Railroad. It used to be the most profitable one in the US. The "Colonel" was at a big railroad meeting once and the other railroad exc's. were giving him a hard time about his railroad being rather short. He answered with something like, "It may be short but it's just as wide." 

I'm familiar with the joke, John, sir.

By the way, weren't the New York City-Miami passenger trains only a little more than an overnight trip between those two points?

It might be slower, but on the other hand, try to take your car with you on an airplane.

It evens out.

[Carl]

True.....and the days of 2 steel rails on wooden crossties are ....are.....well, in the past. It's time for a whole rethinking of rail service or time to abandon the rest of the tracks....which has been happening quite often around here.

Hey Frank and Carl. Look up the L7C Railroad or maybe the Lancaster Chester Railroad. It used to be the most profitable one in the US. The "Colonel" was at a big railroad meeting once and the other railroad exc's. were giving him a hard time about his railroad being rather short. He answered with something like, "It may be short but it's just as wide." 

Here too yet we are forced to keep it going with no chance of rethinking the thing.
Once again a government failure created and perpetuated by the same ilk now trying to reinvent our health care system.

I am sure that in time rail could be redesigned to run efficiently and profitably as long as that last word profit is part of the equation.
No one is going to try to compete against the government being content to lose money year after year as all you could do is lose more then they do.

[The Village Idiot]

To be honest though, every passenger rail system worldwide is Government subsidised. Amtrak does provide transportation to people in a lot of rural areas who otherwise would not have access to interstate transportation.

blah blah blah

They don't have roads? Find me a town they stop in that does not have a road.

[JohnnyReb]

By the way, weren't the New York City-Miami passenger trains only a little more than an overnight trip between those two points?

Yep. Only stopped in state capitols or another big town in a state. Let me see if I can remember a few ...left New York...stopped in Washington DC...Richmond VA....Raliegh NC...Columbia SC...Savanah GA....Jacksonville FL...then Miama FL.

I might have left out a couple of stops.