http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x6577853Oh my.
The mountain man primitive who, like all men, nightly pitches his tent one day's march closer to the mausoleum:
ThomWV (1000+ posts) Fri Sep-18-09 09:57 AM
Original message
"The Government can't do that, its against the Constitution"
The argument is presented by the right time and time again, "you can't do that, its against the Constitution".
Nonsense. There are, by my count, only 27 activities that are prohibited by our Constitution. They are:
1. Article I, Section 2.
No person shall be a Representative who shall not have attained to the age of twenty five years, and been seven years a citizen of the United States, and who shall not, when elected, be an inhabitant of that state in which he shall be chosen.
2. Article I, Section 2.
The number of Representatives shall not exceed one for every thirty thousand ...
3. Article I, Section 3.
No person shall be a Senator who shall not have attained to the age of thirty years, and been nine years a citizen of the United States and who shall not, when elected, be an inhabitant of that state for which he shall be chosen.
4. Article I, Section 3.
The Senate shall have the sole power to try all impeachments. When sitting for that purpose, they shall be on oath or affirmation. When the President of the United States is tried, the Chief Justice shall preside: And no person shall be convicted without the concurrence of two thirds of the members present.
5. Article I, Section 3.
Judgment in cases of impeachment shall not extend further than to removal from office, and disqualification to hold and enjoy any office of honor, trust or profit under the United States: ...
6. Article I, Section 5.
Neither House, during the session of Congress, shall, without the consent of the other, adjourn for more than three days, nor to any other place than that in which the two Houses shall be sitting.
7. Article I, Section 6.
No Senator or Representative shall, during the time for which he was elected, be appointed to any civil office under the authority of the United States, which shall have been created
8. Article I, Section 7.
No bill of attainder or ex post facto Law shall be passed.
9. Article I, Section 9.
No tax or duty shall be laid on articles exported from any state.
10. Article I, Section 9.
No preference shall be given by any regulation of commerce or revenue to the ports of one state over those of another: nor shall vessels bound to, or from, one state, be obliged to enter, clear or pay duties in another.
11. Article I, Section 9.
No money shall be drawn from the treasury, but in consequence of appropriations made by law; and a regular statement and account of receipts and expenditures of all public money shall be published from time to time.
12. Article I, Section 9.
No title of nobility shall be granted by the United States: and no person holding any office of profit or trust under them, shall, without the consent of the Congress, accept of any present, emolument, office, or title, of any kind whatever, from any king, prince, or foreign state.
13. Article I Section 10.
No state shall enter into any treaty, alliance, or confederation; grant letters of marque and reprisal; coin money; emit bills of credit; make anything but gold and silver coin a tender in payment of debts; pass any bill of attainder, ex post facto law, or law impairing the obligation of contracts, or grant any title of nobility.
14. Article I Section 10.
No state shall, without the consent of the Congress, lay any imposts or duties on imports or exports, except what may be absolutely necessary for executing it's inspection laws: and the net produce of all duties and imposts, laid by any state on imports or exports, shall be for the use of the treasury of the United States; and all such laws shall be subject to the revision and control of the Congress.
15. Article I Section 10.
No state shall, without the consent of Congress, lay any duty of tonnage, keep troops, or ships of war in time of peace, enter into any agreement or compact with another state, or with a foreign power, or engage in war, unless actually invaded, or in such imminent danger as will not admit of delay.
16. Article II, Section 1.
"no Senator or Representative, or person holding an office of trust or profit under the United States, shall be appointed an elector."
17. Article II, Seciton 1.
No person except a natural born citizen, or a citizen of the United States, at the time of the adoption of this Constitution, shall be eligible to the office of President; neither shall any person be eligible to that office who shall not have attained to the age of thirty five years, and been fourteen Years a resident within the United States.
18. Article II, Section 1.
The President shall, at stated times, receive for his services, a compensation, which shall neither be increased nor diminished during the period for which he shall have been elected, and he shall not receive within that period any other emolument from the United States, or any of them.
19. Article III, Section 3.
"No person shall be convicted of treason unless on the testimony of two witnesses to the same overt act, or on confession in open court."
20-27. Bill of rights:
Amendment I
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.
Amendment II
A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.
Amendment III
No soldier shall, in time of peace be quartered in any house, without the consent of the owner, nor in time of war, but in a manner to be prescribed by law.
Amendment IV
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.
Amendment V
No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a grand jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the militia, when in actual service in time of war or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.
Amendment VII
In suits at common law, where the value in controversy shall exceed twenty dollars, the right of trial by jury shall be preserved, and no fact tried by a jury, shall be otherwise reexamined in any court of the United States, than according to the rules of the common law.
Amendment VIII
Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted.
Amendment IX
The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.
Hmmm. One must admit the mountain man primitive seems to know more about the Constitution than Bo, an attorney, does.
Of course, admittedly that's not saying much.
Junkdrawer (1000+ posts) Fri Sep-18-09 10:00 AM
Response to Original message
1. Isn't there a clause that the Government can only do those things...it's explicitly enabled to do?
ThomWV (1000+ posts) Fri Sep-18-09 10:01 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. Nowhere does it say that all things not specifically allowed are prohibited.
See this part here:
The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people.
That "or to the people" tosses it right back into Article I where the people's wishes are put into practice by the House of Representatives.
Statistical (1000+ posts) Fri Sep-18-09 10:05 AM
Original message
Very weak. The people doesn't mean the federal govt.
If it does we are in BIG TROUBLE.
Only the federal govt is protected from warrantless searches? Only the federal govt can petition the govt for grievances?
The people means just that. The people. You me, the bum on the street, the people of the United States.
Nuclear Unicorn (81 posts) Fri Sep-18-09 10:14 AM
Response to Reply #2
14. Some would argue:
That "the people" need to make it a constitutional amendment so that it is within the constitution and thus constitutional.
Of course I would argue the "general welfare" clause of the preamble makes healthcare not only allowable but a constitutational imperative. No civilization--if indeed that is what we are--allows people to die in the streets from neglect. Civil rights weren't in the constitution either and the powers that were refused to allow them in regardless of what the people wanted or needed.
Sometimes the right thing requires that you not pay heed to the howling (ignoring as opposed to actively silencing) mob and move past them to do the good work.
Schema Thing (1000+ posts) Fri Sep-18-09 10:05 AM
Response to Reply #1
5. An ammendment says the opposite of that:
Amendment IX
The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.
Demit (1000+ posts) Fri Sep-18-09 10:07 AM
Response to Reply #1
8. You're thinking of the 10th Amendment?
10th Amendment – Powers of States and people.
"The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people."
But there's also the 9th Amendment – Protection of rights not specifically enumerated in the Bill of Rights.
"The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people."
I think the Founders were pointing out that they couldn't get absurdly specific, and enumerate everything. They weren't being literal. They were setting down basic principles to be followed.
baldguy (1000+ posts) Fri Sep-18-09 10:09 AM
Response to Reply #1
9. Art 1 Sec 8 lists the powers reserved for Congress
Including the power to regulate commerce.
And the 10th Amendment says "The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people."
Junkdrawer (1000+ posts) Fri Sep-18-09 10:12 AM
Response to Reply #9
11. What what I'm reading, Individual Mandates will come under the "power to regulate commerce".... and people are saying that good cases can be made for and against this power.
It WILL go to the Supreme Court. Count on it.
Statistical (1000+ posts) Fri Sep-18-09 10:03 AM
Response to Original message
3. I notice you forgot about the 10th.
The Constitution wasn't designed as a "can't do list" it was designed primarily as a limited "can do list". If the feds want more power they are required to ASK FOR IT. They ASK the people for more power via the amendment process.
Now some rights are considered so fundamental that the founders felt it necessary to list them, to "enumerate" them. That list was NEVER intended to be exhaustive.
The major constraint on the federal govt is the 10th amendment. Remember the BofR was ratified AFTER the Constitution so it is obvious the people felt it necessary for the power of the feds to be more constrained:
"The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people."
Just looking at the "can't do" list is not enough. By that logic of Constitution only having 27 limits the federal govt could kill all dogs in the country. The federal govt could also select the only authorized text book (favorable to federal govt) for teaching US history in all schools.
ThomWV (1000+ posts) Fri Sep-18-09 10:06 AM
Response to Reply #3
7. The 10th takes your right back to Article I and the House of Representatives
Statistical (1000+ posts) Fri Sep-18-09 10:12 AM
Response to Reply #7
12. SO UTTERLY WRONG AND DANGEROUS
The PEOPLE are the PEOPLE.
If the PEOPLE in the 10th means the federal govt then how about....
A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the People to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.
So prevent federal oppression only "the people" = federal agents can have firearms. Yup that makes a lot of sense.
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
Only "the people" = Congress have the right to petition the govt? So Congress can petition Congress and everyone else can **** off?
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.
Only agents of the govt are protected from warrantless searches? The masses have no right here?
Come on no historian takes seriously you concept that "the people" mean Congress. It isn't only wrong it is utterly dangerous. By that definition the federal govt would be all powerful and the BofR just a scam that provides no meaningful protection.
ixion (1000+ posts) Fri Sep-18-09 10:05 AM
Response to Original message
6. yes, they use this as a general purpose argument, however sometimes they're correct, sometimes they're not. It depends entirely on the context.
Fumesucker (1000+ posts) Fri Sep-18-09 10:10 AM
Response to Original message
10. The "modern" interpretation of the Commerce Clause
Lets the feds do pretty much any damn thing they want to.
If I can be thrown in prison because a weed that happens to be growing on my property *might* effect interstate commerce then there is very little that will not effect interstate commerce
Statistical (1000+ posts) Fri Sep-18-09 10:13 AM
Response to Reply #10
13. Agreed and that is bad....however it is not nearly as bad as the OP claim that feds retain all powers except the 27 listed because "the people" means the federal govt.
That is a road to tyranny.
Yep, that's the road, but all the mountain man primitive cares about his getting his social security check and free medical care, nothing else.
