Author Topic: primitives discuss U.S. Navy matters  (Read 3119 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline franksolich

  • Scourge of the Primitives
  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 58722
  • Reputation: +3102/-173
primitives discuss U.S. Navy matters
« on: July 29, 2009, 11:47:57 AM »
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x6176795

Oh my.

The boss boar, boss boor, boss bore, primitive:

Quote
BOSSHOG  (1000+ posts)      Wed Jul-29-09 10:35 AM
Original message
 
29 July 1967 - Sailors to the End

42 years Ago today onboard the USS Forrestal

The aircraft carrier was preparing to launch attacks into North Vietnam when one of its jets accidentally fired a rocket across the flight deck into an aircraft occupied by John McCain. A huge fire ensued, and McCain barely escaped before a thousand pound bomb on his plane exploded, causing a chain reaction with other bombs on surrounding planes.

134 Shipmates died as a result of the catastrophe.

64 years ago tomorrow the USS Indianapolis was sunk leaving a third of its crew in shark invested waters for almost a week before being rescued.

As John Kennedy said on the first of August 1963, Any man who may be asked in this century what he has done to make his life worthwhile can say with a great deal of pride and satisfaction, I served in the United States Navy.

Is the boss boar primitive trying to get kudos from us here, by complimenting the U.S. Navy?  One wonders what his motive is, taking the opposite of the primitive party-line.

Quote
commander bunnypants (1000+ posts)        Wed Jul-29-09 10:41 AM
Response to Original message
 
1. ya know it Boss HOG

HM3 here

Must have been in the Royal Navy, what with this "HM" bit.

Quote
BOSSHOG  (1000+ posts)      Wed Jul-29-09 10:45 AM
Response to Reply #1
 
3. Hey Doc

Loved My Corpsman, crazy mother****ers going on patrol with Marines.

Quote
Blue_Tires  (1000+ posts)        Wed Jul-29-09 10:42 AM
Response to Original message
 
2. there was also the mystery of the Scorpion...

the 60s were some hairy times in the Navy...

Oh now, wasn't Scorpion the one that went down near Boston in 1939, and another submarine, Squalus, was sent out to try to rescue it?

Perhaps the primitive is thinking of Thresher, which went down near Boston in 1963.

If I were in a submarine, I'd steer clear of Boston.

Quote
Captain Hilts  (1000+ posts)      Wed Jul-29-09 10:59 AM
Original message
 
SOSUS made it pretty clear what happened. The USN just couldn't say

"hey, we got these big microphones in the ocean...."

Quote
Blue_Tires  (1000+ posts)        Wed Jul-29-09 11:35 AM
Response to Original message
 
9. so the Russians did sink it?

Quote
BOSSHOG  (1000+ posts)      Wed Jul-29-09 11:54 AM
Response to Reply #9

11. A Great Book on the subject

ALL HANDS DOWN, the True Story of the Soviet Attack on the USS SCORPION by Kenneth Sewell. Sewell is a Nuclear Engineer and former Sub Sailor.
Published in 2008. A very fine, if not very sad read.

Well now, I am confused.

What was the name of the submarine that went down near Boston in 1939?

Quote
Captain Hilts  (1000+ posts)      Wed Jul-29-09 12:34 PM
Response to Reply #9
 
12. No. SOSUS provided a detailed soundtrack of the entire incident.

Quote
alfredo  (1000+ posts)        Wed Jul-29-09 11:15 AM
Response to Reply #2

8. Had a friend on the Scorpion, David Huckleberry. I heard about it while stationed in East Africa. The wife of the JAG informed me. She was my sister's gym teacher so she felt a bit of kinship with me. I remember her walking across the field right at me. I had an uneasy feeling because she wasn't smiling as usual. She informed me that David was on the Scorpion when it was lost.

It was amazing how, many high school connections I had while stuck on top of that extinct vacation. Another high school friend would appear around the time there were space shots were to happen. Another was the cousin of an old girlfriend. He was CIA at the time, and is now a State Department Consultant.

Quote
Semi_subversive  (1000+ posts)      Wed Jul-29-09 10:51 AM
Response to Original message

4. July 29 1972 and 1973

I was somewhere in the Pacific, most likely under water with the USS Plunger or in a Dolphin bar

Quote
BOSSHOG  (1000+ posts)      Wed Jul-29-09 11:38 AM
Response to Reply #4
 
10. Hey Shipmate

Just finished an interesting Sub Book "Stealth Boat, Fighting the Cold War in a Fast-Attack Submarine" By Gannon McHale. He was on the Sturgeon 67-70. He was a nonrate but struck for Yeoman. Interesting book about that period of time, most of the book was about he and his shipmates bar hopping. Its a relatively new book published last year. Not much of historical value but a Sailor would appreciate the non-sense we did and most likely still do get into as retold in this book.

Quote
Captain Hilts  (1000+ posts)      Wed Jul-29-09 10:58 AM
Response to Original message
 
5. A friend of mine was flying A7s off the Forrestal that day. His plane was not damaged. The cruise book from the cruise was really graphic.

Quote
razorman (463 posts)       Wed Jul-29-09 10:59 AM
Response to Original message
 
6. Thanks for the post and good wishes. "The Forrestal Fire" was a training film being used extensively when I was in the navy in the 70's. I saw it several times, and the images still remain with me. Having experienced a few shipboard emergencies, I can tell you that fire is probably the thing that sailors fear most at sea. Like the old saying, "If you have a fire on land, there you are. If you have a fire at sea, where are you?" God rest the brave men who died on the Forrestal that day.

Quote
Captain Hilts  (1000+ posts)      Wed Jul-29-09 10:59 AM
Response to Reply #6
 
7. Folks in Norfolk always talked about the carrier deck training movie where the guy gets caught in an arresting cable and sucked through a cleat.

You know, I think the boss boar primitive is trying to get in good with us, establishing his credentials.  Maybe he wants to become a member here, or something.

But the boss boar primitive is risking exile from Skins's island, by expressing patriotic and pro-military sentiments.
apres moi, le deluge

Milo Yiannopoulos "It has been obvious since 2016 that Trump carries an anointing of some kind. My American friends, are you so blind to reason, and deaf to Heaven? Can he do all this, and cannot get a crown? This man is your King. Coronate him, and watch every devil shriek, and every demon howl."

Offline JohnnyReb

  • In Memoriam
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 32063
  • Reputation: +1998/-134
Re: primitives discuss U.S. Navy matters
« Reply #1 on: July 29, 2009, 12:25:22 PM »
My childhood nieghbor, and still nieghbor, served on the USS FORRESTAL for many years. He was on the first crew to serve "AFTER" her sea trials and commissioning....would that make him a (wadda ya call it) a "plank" member?

If I remember correctly, they took the FORRESTAL out for her first run at sea (trials) and made a sharp high speed turn which they weren't supposed to do.... and they bent her in the middle.....had to bring her in and rework her middle section.


“The American people will never knowingly adopt socialism. But, under the name of ‘liberalism’, they will adopt every fragment of the socialist program, until one day America will be a socialist nation, without knowing how it happened.” - Norman Thomas, U.S. Socialist Party presidential candidate 1940, 1944 and 1948

"America is like a healthy body and its resistance is threefold: its patriotism, its morality, and its spiritual life. If we can undermine these three areas, America will collapse from within."  Stalin

Offline AllosaursRus

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 11672
  • Reputation: +424/-293
  • Skip Tracing by Contract Only!
Re: primitives discuss U.S. Navy matters
« Reply #2 on: July 29, 2009, 02:33:00 PM »
My childhood nieghbor, and still nieghbor, served on the USS FORRESTAL for many years. He was on the first crew to serve "AFTER" her sea trials and commissioning....would that make him a (wadda ya call it) a "plank" member?

If I remember correctly, they took the FORRESTAL out for her first run at sea (trials) and made a sharp high speed turn which they weren't supposed to do.... and they bent her in the middle.....had to bring her in and rework her middle section.




So did he tell what the captains name was that ended his career? Just sayin'.....
I'm the guy your mother warned you about!
 

Offline franksolich

  • Scourge of the Primitives
  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 58722
  • Reputation: +3102/-173
Re: primitives discuss U.S. Navy matters
« Reply #3 on: July 29, 2009, 02:34:48 PM »
So did he tell what the captains name was that ended his career? Just sayin'.....

Maybe the captain was the lying tits primitive, the now-exiled "TomInTib" primitive?
apres moi, le deluge

Milo Yiannopoulos "It has been obvious since 2016 that Trump carries an anointing of some kind. My American friends, are you so blind to reason, and deaf to Heaven? Can he do all this, and cannot get a crown? This man is your King. Coronate him, and watch every devil shriek, and every demon howl."

Offline docstew

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4741
  • Reputation: +282/-187
  • My Wife is awesome!
Re: primitives discuss U.S. Navy matters
« Reply #4 on: July 29, 2009, 02:37:34 PM »
Frank,

As you are a professional civilian, I'm sure you don't know much about the Naval ranks (hell, I'm in the Army and I don't know much about the naval ranks.  They're just damn confusing).  The letters HM have nothing to do with "Her Majesty".  He is stating his rank and rate, (Thor, please correct me if I'm wrong here), of Hospital Mate 3rd Class.  Essentially, he is a medical person, roughly equivalent in training to an EMT.

Offline AllosaursRus

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 11672
  • Reputation: +424/-293
  • Skip Tracing by Contract Only!
Re: primitives discuss U.S. Navy matters
« Reply #5 on: July 29, 2009, 02:46:58 PM »
Maybe the captain was the lying tits primitive, the now-exiled "TomInTib" primitive?

Heh. heh! I sure miss that lieing SOB!
I'm the guy your mother warned you about!
 

Offline franksolich

  • Scourge of the Primitives
  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 58722
  • Reputation: +3102/-173
Re: primitives discuss U.S. Navy matters
« Reply #6 on: July 29, 2009, 02:53:28 PM »
Frank,

As you are a professional civilian, I'm sure you don't know much about the Naval ranks (hell, I'm in the Army and I don't know much about the naval ranks.  They're just damn confusing).  The letters HM have nothing to do with "Her Majesty".  He is stating his rank and rate, (Thor, please correct me if I'm wrong here), of Hospital Mate 3rd Class.  Essentially, he is a medical person, roughly equivalent in training to an EMT.

Oh.

Thank you sir.  I wondered what the acronym meant.

If I ever get elected to public office, the first bill I plan on introducing is a measure to ban the use of acronyms by governmental agencies, including the military.

I had a teacher in the fifth grade, a most remarkable teacher, who taught us that people who use acronyms and abbreviations, rather than spelling things out fully, were sloppy negligent selfish uncouth semi-literate inconsiderate jerks, and I think she was right.

Of course I DO understand that those in the military are sometimes required to use the official acronyms and abbreviations--probably get court-martialled if they don't--and so those in the military, especially in the lower ranks, are exempt from the above criticism.
apres moi, le deluge

Milo Yiannopoulos "It has been obvious since 2016 that Trump carries an anointing of some kind. My American friends, are you so blind to reason, and deaf to Heaven? Can he do all this, and cannot get a crown? This man is your King. Coronate him, and watch every devil shriek, and every demon howl."

Offline AprilRazz

  • I love my...
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2705
  • Reputation: +202/-16
Re: primitives discuss U.S. Navy matters
« Reply #7 on: July 29, 2009, 06:16:55 PM »
Frank,

As you are a professional civilian, I'm sure you don't know much about the Naval ranks (hell, I'm in the Army and I don't know much about the naval ranks.  They're just damn confusing).  The letters HM have nothing to do with "Her Majesty".  He is stating his rank and rate, (Thor, please correct me if I'm wrong here), of Hospital Mate 3rd Class.  Essentially, he is a medical person, roughly equivalent in training to an EMT.
That would be Hospital Corpsman Third Class. We are the only enlisted Corps in the military and any good Corpsman would run circles around any civilian paramedic and registered nurse. We are on the ships, hospitals and in the field with every Marine unit.

Tip for you all. If you want to get into a fight with a Marine post haste start messing with their Corpsman.  :-)

Coach some of the acronyms make sense. If you need someone in a hurry it is better to yell HM3 than Hospital Corpsman Third Class. But I agree with you on most others.;)
Proud Navy Wife and Veteran

"How a politician stands on the Second Amendment tells you how he or she views you as an individual... as a trustworthy and productive citizen, or as part of an unruly crowd that needs to be lorded over, controlled, supervised, and taken care of." Suzanna Hupp


racist – A statement of surrender during an argument. When two people or disputants are engaged in an acrimonious debate, the side that first says “Racist!” has conceded defeat. Synonymous with saying “Resign” during a chess game, or “Uncle” during a schoolyard fight. Ori

Offline DumbAss Tanker

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 28493
  • Reputation: +1710/-151
Re: primitives discuss U.S. Navy matters
« Reply #8 on: July 29, 2009, 09:02:07 PM »
Naval ratings are freakishly difficult to figure out, and especially to translate into what the rate actually does for a living and how high he or she really is on the food chain (HMs are kinda obvious, of course). 

Those of us in other services can't really decide whether it's a conspiracy or just a cruel inside joke.
Go and tell the Spartans, O traveler passing by
That here, obedient to their law, we lie.

Anything worth shooting once is worth shooting at least twice.

Offline thundley4

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 40571
  • Reputation: +2224/-127
Re: primitives discuss U.S. Navy matters
« Reply #9 on: July 29, 2009, 09:13:36 PM »
Naval ratings are freakishly difficult to figure out, and especially to translate into what the rate actually does for a living and how high he or she really is on the food chain (HMs are kinda obvious, of course). 

Those of us in other services can't really decide whether it's a conspiracy or just a cruel inside joke.

I thought most ratings were pretty clear.

EM = Electricians Mate
ET = Electronics Technician
MM = Machinists Mate
YN =Yeoman

Offline Chris_

  • Little Lebowski Urban Achiever
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 46845
  • Reputation: +2028/-266
Re: primitives discuss U.S. Navy matters
« Reply #10 on: July 29, 2009, 10:11:07 PM »
Wow.  I guess I owe thanks to the DUmmy.  I'd almost forgotten about the Forrestal.

My father's first shipboard posting was as an Aviation Ordnanceman with one of the A-6 attack squadrons aboard USS Forrestal.  He'd been aboard only a few months when the Forrest Fire broke out, and he was on the hanger deck manning a hose during that time.  Apparently he'd neglected or never had the chance to report in to his chief in the course of the damage control, and was thus reported up the chain as Missing In Action.  That report was transmitted to whichever headquarters was receiving, and some clerk typist innocently misread the report, and had "The Telegram" sent to my grandmother in Long Beach, that my father had been Killed In Action aboard the USS Forrestal on 29 July 1967. 
Well, my dad got things figured out between him and his chief, and he was only on the Missing list for 3 days before it was corrected, but no one thought to notify my grandmother that my dad wasn't, in fact, dead.  First she knew he was alive was when, after they got the Forrestal back into port and my dad was given leave, he comes walking up her front walk just like nothing was wrong.  My grandmother is thinking she's seen a ghost at first.  Then , she gets it in her mind that my dad was the originator of the telegram, that he played a practical joke on her.  She comes flying off her front porch, meets him halfway up the walk, and lays a punch on him that woulda done Mike Tyson proud: she lays him flat on the sidewalk, rubbing his jaw, and wondering what the hell that was for...

I sure miss my dad.
If you want to worship an orange pile of garbage with a reckless disregard for everything, get on down to Arbys & try our loaded curly fries.

Offline crockspot

  • In Memoriam
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1985
  • Reputation: +80/-7
  • Bite me, libs.
Re: primitives discuss U.S. Navy matters
« Reply #11 on: July 30, 2009, 05:54:39 AM »
I worked with a guy who told me he was on the Forrestal during the accident. He also claimed to be one of the guys in the picture of sailors pushing helicopters off the flight deck of whatever ship that was during the fall of Saigon. Maybe he was telling TiT tales, I have no idea. But he told me that when he came on board, he was basically trained in the unofficial tradition of simply signing off on inspections of things like fire hoses. No one actually inspected them, they just signed the sheets. When the Forrestal lit up, most of the fire hoses failed. They had simply rotted over time, and no one noticed, because they weren't really doing their job. Apparently, that "tradition" ended that day.

Offline crockspot

  • In Memoriam
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1985
  • Reputation: +80/-7
  • Bite me, libs.
Re: primitives discuss U.S. Navy matters
« Reply #12 on: July 30, 2009, 05:58:08 AM »
Wow.  I guess I owe thanks to the DUmmy.  I'd almost forgotten about the Forrestal.

My father's first shipboard posting was as an Aviation Ordnanceman with one of the A-6 attack squadrons aboard USS Forrestal.  He'd been aboard only a few months when the Forrest Fire broke out, and he was on the hanger deck manning a hose during that time.  Apparently he'd neglected or never had the chance to report in to his chief in the course of the damage control, and was thus reported up the chain as Missing In Action.  That report was transmitted to whichever headquarters was receiving, and some clerk typist innocently misread the report, and had "The Telegram" sent to my grandmother in Long Beach, that my father had been Killed In Action aboard the USS Forrestal on 29 July 1967. 
Well, my dad got things figured out between him and his chief, and he was only on the Missing list for 3 days before it was corrected, but no one thought to notify my grandmother that my dad wasn't, in fact, dead.  First she knew he was alive was when, after they got the Forrestal back into port and my dad was given leave, he comes walking up her front walk just like nothing was wrong.  My grandmother is thinking she's seen a ghost at first.  Then , she gets it in her mind that my dad was the originator of the telegram, that he played a practical joke on her.  She comes flying off her front porch, meets him halfway up the walk, and lays a punch on him that woulda done Mike Tyson proud: she lays him flat on the sidewalk, rubbing his jaw, and wondering what the hell that was for...

I sure miss my dad.

That tale is both tragic, and funny as hell.

Offline Carl

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 19838
  • Reputation: +1617/-100
Re: primitives discuss U.S. Navy matters
« Reply #13 on: July 30, 2009, 06:21:09 AM »
Only one seems to have "gotten" what I suspect the reason this was posted at the DUmp.

Quote
Orsino  (1000+ posts)          Wed Jul-29-09 12:39 PM
Response to Original message
14. Agreed...
   ...as long as anyone with an anti-American voting record like John McCain's isn't allowed to hide it behind his/her former military service.

This coming from a person who no doubt supported Kerry in 2004. ::)
It is almost as if they recognize the most hateful and hypocritical parts of their being and just have to apply them to someone else.
A sort of cleansing of a polluted mind in a perverse way.

Offline Doc Savage

  • Challenger of the Democratic faith
  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 611
  • Reputation: +55/-6
Re: primitives discuss U.S. Navy matters
« Reply #14 on: July 30, 2009, 06:24:52 AM »
Naval ratings are freakishly difficult to figure out, and especially to translate into what the rate actually does for a living and how high he or she really is on the food chain (HMs are kinda obvious, of course). 

Those of us in other services can't really decide whether it's a conspiracy or just a cruel inside joke.

It is a cruel inside joke.  If you are ever running around a command that is a major A school command, you will nee E-2 and E-3's running around with green, or red, or white rating badges.  Then you have a rate like SK (store keeper) box kicker, On the aviation side, AK is an aviation store keeper.  The thing that really got me about the Navy was the propensity of Uniform changes.  I went thru so many different uniforms.  THere there is Summer, Winter, Dress, Work, dungarees, and being with the Marines, I had to have Cammies too.  I had a sea bag the size of a warehouse.

And here is a little know (out side of the Military I guess) fact.  A Navy person assigned to a Marine Command has the option of going Marine Regs.  You wear a Marine uniform (except Marine Dress Uniform,  got to be a real jar head to get that privilege) do a Marine PFT, with Navy rating badges.  Don't think that zoomies assigned to Army units get that option.
« Last Edit: July 30, 2009, 10:15:14 PM by Chris »
You see, I don't care you how feel.  I really don't.  More importantly, neither does anyone else.  Only about 200 people on a planet of 7 billion actually care about your feelings, and that's if you're lucky.  The sooner you grasp this lesson, the better off you will be.  And since almost no one gives a damn what you do, say, think, or feel, appealing to your feelings when you encounter differences of opinion is not only illogical, but useless.

Offline DumbAss Tanker

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 28493
  • Reputation: +1710/-151
Re: primitives discuss U.S. Navy matters
« Reply #15 on: July 30, 2009, 08:55:32 AM »
The Army is really pretty hands-off with other-service contingents attached to them, we usually just leave it to the senior member of the contingent to enforce his or her own service's uniform policies (Except for tactical or mission gear, of course).  It's not that we really believe they will, it's just that we usually have plenty of more important things to worry about and don't want to mess with it.
Go and tell the Spartans, O traveler passing by
That here, obedient to their law, we lie.

Anything worth shooting once is worth shooting at least twice.

Offline franksolich

  • Scourge of the Primitives
  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 58722
  • Reputation: +3102/-173
Re: primitives discuss U.S. Navy matters
« Reply #16 on: July 30, 2009, 10:38:18 AM »
The Army is really pretty hands-off with other-service contingents attached to them, we usually just leave it to the senior member of the contingent to enforce his or her own service's uniform policies (Except for tactical or mission gear, of course).  It's not that we really believe they will, it's just that we usually have plenty of more important things to worry about and don't want to mess with it.

You're gonna hate me, sir.  Another stupid question.

In a case where the Army is led by a colonel, and is involved in some sort of action that requires some help from the Marines led by a second lieutenant in that service, who is the boss, the ultimate boss, the last word, the final authority for the Marines?  The colonel in the Army, or their own second lieutenant?
apres moi, le deluge

Milo Yiannopoulos "It has been obvious since 2016 that Trump carries an anointing of some kind. My American friends, are you so blind to reason, and deaf to Heaven? Can he do all this, and cannot get a crown? This man is your King. Coronate him, and watch every devil shriek, and every demon howl."

Offline djones520

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4207
  • Reputation: +181/-146
Re: primitives discuss U.S. Navy matters
« Reply #17 on: July 30, 2009, 10:41:43 AM »
The Army is really pretty hands-off with other-service contingents attached to them, we usually just leave it to the senior member of the contingent to enforce his or her own service's uniform policies (Except for tactical or mission gear, of course).  It's not that we really believe they will, it's just that we usually have plenty of more important things to worry about and don't want to mess with it.

That may be the official policy, but what happens in practice is totally differant.  Our ASOS's that are attached to you guys are always getting "tasked" by rogue Army Officers who think they can just tell us to go dig a pit somewhere.  The Army has no real power to do such a thing, but it doesn't stop you guys from trying.   :tongue:
"Chuck Norris once had sex in an 18 wheeler. Some of his semen dripped onto the engine. We now call that truck Optimus Prime."

Offline GOBUCKS

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 24186
  • Reputation: +1812/-339
  • All in all, not bad, not bad at all
Re: primitives discuss U.S. Navy matters
« Reply #18 on: July 30, 2009, 10:43:04 AM »
You're gonna hate me, sir.  Another stupid question.

In a case where the Army is led by a colonel, and is involved in some sort of action that requires some help from the Marines led by a second lieutenant in that service, who is the boss, the ultimate boss, the last word, the final authority for the Marines?  The colonel in the Army, or their own second lieutenant?
That would be a job for TomInTib.

Offline DumbAss Tanker

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 28493
  • Reputation: +1710/-151
Re: primitives discuss U.S. Navy matters
« Reply #19 on: July 30, 2009, 11:21:55 AM »
djones, I was talking about uniform discipline, whether the USAF is actually capable of 'Work" is another question entirely.

Frank, the question you ask is one for which you in turn will hate the answer, because the answer is "It depends."  There is a wide spectrum of varying degrees of control when units of different services or even separate commands are put together, and the nature of the assignment order determines the degree of control.  This is the Readers' Digest version:

The most minimal level would be 'Attached for support only' which basically gives the gaining commander no real authority over the strap-hangers who show up, and that's closest to the relationship djones was describing.  It's basically a pain in the ass for the gaining commander since he has responsibility to feed them and tuck them in, but no real control over them to even get them to clean up after themselves.  This is something the gaining commander usually doesn't want but has been foisted on him because a higher level of command has decided to put the visitors there to perform a function the higher command deems important, though it does the local gaining commander no particular immediate good as opposed to the visitors staying somewhere else entirely.

In the middle is 'OPCON' or 'Operational Control,' which means the gaining commander still has life support responsibility but can now order and direct the coming, going, and activities of his guests to support his own mission.  The visitors are there to perform some purpose that more or less directly supports the gaining commander's own mission execution, which would be the most likely situation for the Army/Marine example you mention.  The gaining commander does not have actual UCMJ jurisdiction to punish misconduct, that goes back to the visitor's own service or unit (If in the same service as the gaining command).  The orders of the gaining commander are however completey lawful orders and the visiting lower-level commander defies them at his peril, though the actual consequences would be formally imposed by his home unit.

Tightest is full attachment for all purposes, in Army orders this will either include the phrase 'Attached for adminstration' or 'Attached for rations, quarters, and UCMJ' plus some information about duration and mission.  Other-service elements are never attached this fully, for maneuver forces the type of attachment used is usually OPCON for the length of a specific operation, until a given date, or until some specific event occurs or fails to occur.       
Go and tell the Spartans, O traveler passing by
That here, obedient to their law, we lie.

Anything worth shooting once is worth shooting at least twice.

Offline NHSparky

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 24431
  • Reputation: +1280/-617
  • Where are you going? I was gonna make espresso!
Re: primitives discuss U.S. Navy matters
« Reply #20 on: July 30, 2009, 11:30:35 AM »
And FWIW, John Pina Craven wrote a good chunk of his book The Silent War on his search for the Scorpion.  It's a much better book.  There were a number of problems with the Scorpion within the year prior to her loss.  When she was found, the inquiry at the time was almost all classified, but Clinton declassified a good chunk of it in 1993 and (as we suspected) it looks like a "hot-run" of the torpedoes was to blame, not some sinister secret battle with the Russians.
“Any man who thinks he can be happy and prosperous by letting the government take care of him better take a closer look at the American Indian.”  -Henry Ford

Offline franksolich

  • Scourge of the Primitives
  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 58722
  • Reputation: +3102/-173
Re: primitives discuss U.S. Navy matters
« Reply #21 on: July 30, 2009, 11:42:15 AM »
Actually, Tanker, sir, that was very good.

I thank you for it.

Chain-of-command is of particular interest to me, because as a deaf person I always see contradictions in it (in civilian businesses and corporations).

It is not infrequent that I have a printed copy of a chain-of-command.

Okay, so that's the way it works, right?

Oops, no.

Because of varying skills, varying forces of personalities, varying seniority, a chain-of-command in real life (in civilian businesses and corporations) resembles the printed version not at all.

It's especially a vexation for the deaf, trust me.
apres moi, le deluge

Milo Yiannopoulos "It has been obvious since 2016 that Trump carries an anointing of some kind. My American friends, are you so blind to reason, and deaf to Heaven? Can he do all this, and cannot get a crown? This man is your King. Coronate him, and watch every devil shriek, and every demon howl."

Offline djones520

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4207
  • Reputation: +181/-146
Re: primitives discuss U.S. Navy matters
« Reply #22 on: July 30, 2009, 12:04:45 PM »
djones, I was talking about uniform discipline, whether the USAF is actually capable of 'Work" is another question entirely.
   

I've got some stories about that as well, but those where more about some dumbass Privates who thoughts they knew our uniform regs better then we do.
"Chuck Norris once had sex in an 18 wheeler. Some of his semen dripped onto the engine. We now call that truck Optimus Prime."

Offline TheSarge

  • Platoon Sergeant
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9557
  • Reputation: +411/-252
Re: primitives discuss U.S. Navy matters
« Reply #23 on: July 30, 2009, 02:19:01 PM »
You're gonna hate me, sir.  Another stupid question.

In a case where the Army is led by a colonel, and is involved in some sort of action that requires some help from the Marines led by a second lieutenant in that service, who is the boss, the ultimate boss, the last word, the final authority for the Marines?  The colonel in the Army, or their own second lieutenant?

If the marines are attached to the for any reason to the unit commanded by the Colonel...then they take orders from the Colonel.

Such was the case in Ramadi when 1st Brigade 1st ID was there and had a Marine rifle company assigned to them.  The CO of the Marine company was in control of his men...but the CO got his instructions on what to do and when from the Army Brigade Commander.
Liberalism Is The Philosophy Of The Stupid

The libs/dems of today are the Quislings of former years.  The cowards who would vote a fraud into office in exchange for handouts from the devil.

If it walks like a donkey and brays like a donkey and smells like a donkey - it's Cold Warrior.  - PoliCon



Palin has run a state, a town and a commercial fishing operation. Obama ain't run nothin' but his mouth. - Mark Steyn