http://www.democraticunderground.org/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x6164255#6166104Damn.
Another one of those primitive bonfires lit in General Discussion, when there's a forum on Skins's island for sports.
The DUmbover primitive must be another one of these drama queens, "BWAA! BWAA! BWAA! I want to hang out with the cool primitives! I want to be seen with the hip primitives! BWAA! BWAA! 'General Discussion' is where it's at! I don't want to be shoved in with the nerds and geeks and uncool primitives in 'Sports'! BWAA! BWAA!"
Talk about being high-schoolish.
Anyway.
DUlover2909 (1000+ posts) Mon Jul-27-09 07:41 PM
Original message
Letting Michael Vick into the NFL on any terms sickens me.
However, if the NFL made him give half his paycheck (after taxes) to PETA, would you say it's ok for him to play again? That's the only thing that could mitigate my opposition to his reinstatement.
What do you think?
KamaAina (1000+ posts) Mon Jul-27-09 07:42 PM
Response to Original message
1. Why PETA?
Why not the ASPCA or some other organization?
dorkulon (1000+ posts) Mon Jul-27-09 07:44 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. It's Vick's moral obligation to help fund zany publicity stunts and pictures of naked celebrities.
The ASPCA is sooo boring.
DesertFlower (1000+ posts) Mon Jul-27-09 07:43 PM
Response to Original message
2. yes. PETA, Best friends, etc.
demosincebirth (1000+ posts) Mon Jul-27-09 07:45 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. Why PETA? Why not the SPCA?
Okay, that's the way the bonfire gets started, and it grows very large; so from here on out, only the Primitives of Prominence are quoted.
The high fructose pancake syrup primitive:
HiFructosePronSyrup (1000+ posts) Mon Jul-27-09 07:45 PM
Response to Original message
5. I'd rather see Michael Vick in the NFL than PETA having any sort of income.
****ing nuts.
The forked primitive, who thinks he knows something about sports:
Forkboy (1000+ posts) Mon Jul-27-09 10:35 PM
Response to Reply #84
86. I'm all for reinsertion.
A primitive of no prominence, but needs quoted anyway:
Statistical (1000+ posts) Mon Jul-27-09 07:56 PM
Response to Original message
9. So an excon should be denied legitimate employment after serving the sentance prescribed by the law.
If you think the sentence was light then lobby to strengthen it.
Punishment ends when sentence is served.
franksolich's new project:
armyowalgreens (1000+ posts) Mon Jul-27-09 08:05 PM
Response to Reply #9
13. Except for convicted sex offenders. Punishment never ends.
Statistical (1000+ posts) Mon Jul-27-09 08:46 PM
Response to Reply #13
44. That is true. I don't have a good answer for that.
Part of it is the high recidivism rate and the danger to society that presents.
armyowalgreens (1000+ posts) Mon Jul-27-09 08:54 PM
Response to Reply #44
48. The reason for that could be because they are forsaken by society...
Those abandoned by society tend to turn towards deviant actions.
If you call someone a freak long enough, they will start to act according to how you view them.
Another primitive of no prominence who needs quoted:
Deja Q (1000+ posts) Mon Jul-27-09 10:41 PM
Response to Reply #48
89. Odd. When not being molested by real freaks, the treatment I got as a child by others was freakish.
Explain how I manage to live a mostly normal life...
Scarred to be sure, but I strive to be contributing and productive - I've overcome a hell of a lot - I suspect a lot more, in general or specific terms, that you'd ever be able to contemplate.
And, sometimes, people really are freaks. Just don't ask a child to define what a freak is. Children tend to be malicious by default...
armyowalgreens (1000+ posts) Mon Jul-27-09 10:51 PM
Response to Reply #89
99. I don't believe I said that applies to all.
But by all means, turn this into something completely irrelevant to my point.
When an already troubled individual is abandoned by society, that individual indulges his or her deviant behavior because that's all he or she knows.
Label someone a sex offender, make it nearly impossible for one to get a home or a job, and he or she will turn back towards the behavior they know best. This happens all the time with criminals. When they are put in an environment that is hospitable, the deviant behavior is likely more manageable.
But I never said that it applies to all criminals or all sex offenders. It's simply a concept.
armyowalgreens (1000+ posts) Mon Jul-27-09 11:22 PM
Response to Reply #121
125. One example could be immigrant movements to the US...
When the Irish moved to the US, they were demonized by others and forced into exclusion. Because of that, violent crime in Irish communities sky-rocketed. That's how organized crime began in the US. These immigrant minority communities were forsaken and, in turn, members of the communities turned to crime.
The same can be seen in poor, minority communities today. They are excluded from the rest of society and turn to deviant acts like organized crime.
armyowalgreens (1000+ posts) Tue Jul-28-09 12:04 AM
Response to Reply #149
153. Never studied sociology did yuh?
That's okay. I'll try to find some related sources. Unfortunately, I cannot cram my textbook through the computer screen into your lap.
armyowalgreens (1000+ posts) Tue Jul-28-09 01:21 AM
Response to Reply #163
174. Labelling theory...
I finally remembered one of the theories I was trying to find.
armyowalgreens (1000+ posts) Tue Jul-28-09 01:29 AM
Response to Reply #163
176. Also, Sociology attempts to quantify and categorize human social structure...
If you want to call it "generalizing human behavior", so be it.
armyowalgreens (1000+ posts) Mon Jul-27-09 10:54 PM
Response to Reply #87
101. Even with your experience, you cannot speak against all sex offenders...
They are not all the same.
The blue primitive, who would be okay with rampant political corruption and crooked elections if he got free medical care out of it:
bluestateguy (1000+ posts) Mon Jul-27-09 09:12 PM
Response to Reply #9
54. I'm all for legitimate employment
McDonalds is looking for burger flippers.
This asshole should not take the spot of some young quarterback who is not a felon.
bluestateguy (1000+ posts) Mon Jul-27-09 09:59 PM
Response to Reply #11
65. He did his time as far as the law is concerned
I respect that. I really do.
But as to your analogy with being a contractor, indeed if a contractor went to jail for armed robbery and larceny, such a person would not automatically get his license back. Maybe someday, but not immediately. I don't want a contractor traipsing around my house who is a thief or a robber. Same with an elementary school teacher who goes to jail for 5 years for molesting children. After he does his time, will he be welcomed back into the classroom with open arms? Probably never, but certainly not right away.
armyowalgreens (1000+ posts) Mon Jul-27-09 08:04 PM
Response to Original message
12. Not a big fan of the criminal justice system?
He did his time and lost the vast majority of his money.
What more do you want?
Let him back into the NFL.
armyowalgreens (1000+ posts) Mon Jul-27-09 08:08 PM
Response to Reply #15
16. So you live in a fantasy world. Okay.
I live in reality.
armyowalgreens (1000+ posts) Mon Jul-27-09 08:28 PM
Response to Reply #30
34. Good one. You don't literally reside in a fantasy world.
You simply believe you do.
We cannot undo what Vick did. That goes for all crimes. We cannot undo what has already been done.
So do you want to try again?
The Paul Harvey primitive:
paulsby (1000+ posts) Mon Jul-27-09 08:09 PM
Response to Original message
20. let him play
hey, i'm a law and order guy, but he served his time, paid his dues. nobody believes the NFL is some sort of confederation of saintly perfection, after all. it's a bunch of talented athletes, of various moral qualities.
i think him giving half his paycheck to PETA is lame. there are many much more respectable charities than PETA, who are often fringe, and ridiculous.
but that's a tangential issue.
let him play. he did his time. he should be able to move on.
armyowalgreens (1000+ posts) Mon Jul-27-09 11:08 PM
Response to Reply #88
114. You don't really seem to give a damn about facts or logic...
Anyone who compares Michael Vick to the SS is a moron in my book.
armyowalgreens (1000+ posts) Mon Jul-27-09 11:18 PM
Response to Reply #119
120. At least it's nice to know that you follow Godwin's Law.
armyowalgreens (1000+ posts) Mon Jul-27-09 10:57 PM
Response to Reply #103
105. What is justice?
What do you think justice truly is?
armyowalgreens (1000+ posts) Mon Jul-27-09 11:10 PM
Response to Reply #113
115. So if someone can right their wrongs and change there life without jail, that is still justice...
right?
The reality of the situation is that you don't want justice. You want vengeance. And they are anything but similar.
armyowalgreens (1000+ posts) Mon Jul-27-09 11:36 PM
Response to Reply #130
132. You want what has been done to be undone.
Which is absolutely delusional.
You have made it perfectly clear in this thread that you don't give a damn about justice. At least, you put it behind vengeance.
armyowalgreens (1000+ posts) Tue Jul-28-09 12:08 AM
Response to Reply #152
156. It is not a loaded question. I really want to know what you think should be done...
Because you clearly believe that you know what should be done.
armyowalgreens (1000+ posts) Mon Jul-27-09 11:24 PM
Response to Reply #118
127. The reality is that many people don't give a damn about justice...
All they want is vengeance. If justice takes place, it is purely by accident.
armyowalgreens (1000+ posts) Mon Jul-27-09 11:33 PM
Response to Reply #129
131. It should never be about vengeance. If you think it is, you are dead wrong.
There is no doubt in my mind that people want vengeance. Just because people want it does not mean it is right.
You should deter people by showing the ugly nature of their actions. Not by scaring them into submission. That doesn't actually work all that well.
The "deterrent" argument was used to justify capital punishment. But the numbers don't lie. States without capital punishment do not show a higher rate of crime. In fact, in many states it's the exact opposite.
The reality is that most criminals are not thinking about the consequences of their actions while they commit a crime.
armyowalgreens (1000+ posts) Mon Jul-27-09 11:57 PM
Response to Reply #134
145. Michael Vick grew up in a housing project in a drug and crime riddled city.
He grew up in the ghetto. It's not unreasonable to assume that many of his shortcomings, today, came from his early life experiences.
Does that make what he did right? Absolutely not. It simply means that his views on dog fighting were, at one point, different than ours.
If the point of justice is to right the wrongs while also seeking the most beneficial outcome for each person in society, we should be trying to change the way Michael Vick thinks. Not punishing him in jail or keeping him from doing what he wants to do.
And we most certainly should not be labeling him as "evil". Evil doesn't actually exist. It's nothing more than a term used to evoke emotional reactions. I don't subscribe to religious dogma. If you do, that is extremely unfortunate.
If my dog was part of this story, I would feel the exact same way. But it doesn't matter what answer I give to your question. You've already answered that question in your mind. You didn't ask me that question for an answer. You asked it to prove your "point".
armyowalgreens (1000+ posts) Tue Jul-28-09 01:17 AM
Response to Reply #167
173. It's becoming pretty clear that you simply don't give a shit about facts.
Not convincing? What was I trying to convince you of? I'm stating that he was raised in a troubled environment and that could be why he has turned to deviant things.
"That's some anecdotal reference to his troubled past that has nothing to do with his adult life. "
Oh Jesus Christ. Do you know anything?
Read this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Differential_association
You've already said that you don't have any background in sociology. Yet you are in here running your mouth like you think you have a PhD in the subject.
Just because he made millions of dollars and lived an extravagant life does not mean that he left his personality or mindset behind. Money does not make a person.
What you are not buying into is basic tenet of sociology. You are literally denying what scientists and sociologists have studied for decades.
Name removed (0 posts) Tue Jul-28-09 12:11 AM
Response to Reply #140
159. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
I know, I know, it all comes out disjointed and disconnected, when one quotes only the Primitives of Prominence. But the bonfire's just really enormous, and I had to cut out
something, and cutting out the primitives of no prominence seemed just as good a solution as any.
