warped primitive wants the facts

[franksolich]

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x3938632

Oh my.

WriteDown (1000+ posts)      Thu Jun-25-09 11:08 AM
Original message
 
Obama discusses deathbed measures

Reporting from Washington -- President Obama suggested at a town hall event Wednesday night that one way to shave medical costs is to stop expensive and ultimately futile procedures performed on people who are about to die and don't stand to gain from the extra care.

In a nationally televised event at the White House, Obama said families need better information so they don't unthinkingly approve "additional tests or additional drugs that the evidence shows is not necessarily going to improve care."

He added: "Maybe you're better off not having the surgery, but taking the painkiller."

Obama said he has personal familiarity with such a dilemma. His grandmother, Madelyn Dunham, was diagnosed with terminal cancer and given less than nine months to live, he said.

She fell and broke her hip, "and the question was, does she get hip replacement surgery, even though she was fragile enough they were not sure how long she would last?".....

Read more: http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-he...
------------------------------------

I predicted this would be necessary, but I am curious who would be making these decisions.

Oh yeah.  franksolich = been there, done that, seen that.

Anyway.

vadawg  (1000+ posts)      Thu Jun-25-09 11:10 AM
Response to Original message
 
1. hopefully not the same people who work at the DMV, should be the patient though.

newinnm (226 posts)      Thu Jun-25-09 11:12 AM
Response to Original message
 
2. **** that noise

If its one of my family. The only people in the right position to make that decision is my family. No god dam insurance company, hospital executive or government bureaucrat should do that.

WriteDown (1000+ posts)      Thu Jun-25-09 11:13 AM
Response to Reply #2
 
4. Not sure if I'd even trust some in my family...

The warped primitive:

Warpy  (1000+ posts)        Thu Jun-25-09 11:25 AM
Response to Reply #2
 
10. I would hope that someone would give you the facts about chance of success for any treatment, what the recovery period would be like, the possibility of ruining an elderly person's remaining time on earth with heroics that really won't do much good, and the fact that keeping a person comfortable is not part of the package when heroics are decided upon.

Doctors are notoriously lax in this department, often with tunnel vision that states for disease process x, y is the treatment. There comes a time when enough is enough. If we're lucky, our parents are still alert enough to tell us when that is. If we're not, we have to make the decision, often when chirpy and optimistic docs are not giving us all the facts.

Obama's choice of a hip operation was a poor one, though. Broken hips are extremely painful and fixing them reduces the pain and offers even a terminally ill patient a few more days, weeks or months of mobility. Extra courses of futile chemo or drastic surgeries like coronary bypass are quite a different matter.

newinnm (226 posts)      Thu Jun-25-09 11:29 AM
Response to Reply #10
 
13. You think coronary bypass is a drastic surgery?

That procedure is performed daily for hundreds of patients. These patients can be as young 20 yo.

Warpy  (1000+ posts)        Thu Jun-25-09 12:01 PM
Response to Reply #13
 
27. Excuse me, there's a difference between major and routine

Yes, it's become routine at large hospitals.

However, it's an extreme stress on anyone's body. It is just not going to work well in an elderly person debilitated by other severe disease processes.

In that case, it makes much more sense to try to manage them medically.

thecrow  (1000+ posts)        Thu Jun-25-09 11:42 AM
Response to Reply #10
 
19. My dad had a quadruple coronary bypass when he was 73

He had just had 2 heart attacks in one day and they gave him very slim odds of surviving the operation. He is now 88 and going strong.

Warpy  (1000+ posts)        Thu Jun-25-09 11:59 AM
Response to Reply #19
 
26. He probably had a good chance because the odds really don't start to roll off considerably until the mid 80s, as long as there aren't other disease processes like terminal cancer.

My own dad had a carotid endarterectomy at 78 after a stroke and recovered about 95% of his function for the next 11 years.

My advice was to take into account the person's overall condition and listen to what s/he has to say. It's not a hard and fast decision that can be made without ever looking at a person. It's something the patient and/or family need to decide.

I just wish physician input were a little more realistic.

I dunno.  franksolich always got the best, most realistic, input from Roman Catholic clergy--something the warped primitive should consider--explaining what God demands, and what God doesn't demand.  It's never easy, but it's a Hell of a lot easier knowing that stuff, and going from there.

But of course this is the old crusty Hate-filled warped primitive we're talking about here.

[Carl]

Maybe this is also Os plan for making Social Security solvent

[franksolich]

Maybe this is also Os plan for making Social Security solvent

It could very well be.

I mean, surely the primitives don't expect socialized medicine to be strawberries-and-cream.

[BlueStateSaint]

It could very well be.

I mean, surely the primitives don't expect socialized medicine to be strawberries-and-cream.

Coach, they do.  I'd wager a lot of money on it.

[miskie]

Above, Obamacare End Of Life Center in the not too distant future.

[debk]

Methinks the Democrats are going to have an extremely rude awakening when they finally figure out that Mr O just ain't gonna be givin' them what they's thinkin' they should be gettin'......

Unlike many of us who knew we got screwed back in November......they might be startin' to see a bit of a glimmer in their world of utter darkness....

should we be so bold as to tell them it's a train?

[crockspot]

You know, Obama could really cut end of life care costs by not even doing the painkiller option, or occupying that bed for someone who is just a useless dying person... I wonder what the carbon footprint is of burning a terminally ill person in an oven? I bet that footprint is even marginally reduced if there aren't any of those pesky sedatives running through their bloodstream, that are just going to have to be burned off too... 

[Duke Nukum]

Doctors are notoriously lax in this department, often with tunnel vision that states for disease process x, y is the treatment. There comes a time when enough is enough. If we're lucky, our parents are still alert enough to tell us when that is. If we're not, we have to make the decision, often when chirpy and optimistic docs are not giving us all the facts.

Might one of the reasons for this be fear of malpractice lawsuits?  If the disease process is x and y is the normal treatment but the doctor recommends therapy z, not a radical departure, just something the doctor thinks might better suit patient A, and patient A dies, the doctor is open to lawsuits whereas is the doctor goes ahead with treatment y and the patient dies, a lawsuit is less likely.

Where is the reward for the doctor to take any sort of risk?

[Ogre]

You know, Obama could really cut end of life care costs by not even doing the painkiller option, or occupying that bed for someone who is just a useless dying person... I wonder what the carbon footprint is of burning a terminally ill person in an oven? I bet that footprint is even marginally reduced if there aren't any of those pesky sedatives running through their bloodstream, that are just going to have to be burned off too... 

I think that has already been tried by someone......just can't seem to put my finger on it.  Surely the "OBAMA" can't be compared to............................

[JohnnyReb]

I just wish the DUmmies handled dynamite like they do facts. = cheap healthcare.

[franksolich]

I just wish the DUmmies handled dynamite like they do facts. = cheap healthcare.

Damn, that's good, sir.

[USA4ME]

If the primitives don't realize that medical procedures and medicines are going to be rationed by the gov't, and that the tightening of that belt is only going to get worse and worse as time goes on, then they haven't been paying attention to what other countires, many of whom they mention as the model for USA single payer/universal healthcare, have been doing the last few decades or so.  No wonder they haven't a clue when it comes to knowing what's down the road should we make that turn.

.

[Carl]

If the primitives don't realize that medical procedures and medicines are going to be rationed by the gov't, and that the tightening of that belt is only going to get worse and worse as time goes on, then they haven't been paying attention to what other countires, many of whom they mention as the model for USA single payer/universal healthcare, have been doing the last few decades or so.  No wonder they haven't a clue when it comes to knowing what's down the road should we make that turn.

.

They don`t realize it because they are blinded by their desire for free daily doctor visits to hopefully get themselves removed from the productive workforce so that their complete useless existence is taken care of by the government.

[SSG Snuggle Bunny]

We can call it AmeriCorpse: Where Your Value As A Citizen Actually Comes with a Price Tag.

[JohnnyReb]

We can call it AmeriCorpse: Where Your Value As A Citizen Actually Comes with a Price Tag.....and declines with age.