primitives dip into tips

[franksolich]

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x5773352

Oh my.

The orange marmalade primitive:

marmar  (1000+ posts)        Tue Jun-02-09 09:40 PM
Original message

Starbucks supes can dip into tips, court rules

SAN DIEGO -- Starbucks can legally require its low-wage coffee servers to share tips with supervisors who also wait on customers, a state appeals court ruled Tuesday in overturning a $106 million judgment against the company.

A San Diego judge awarded the damages to more than 100,000 past and present servers, also known as baristas, in March 2008 after ruling that Starbucks' shift supervisors are managers who are ineligible to be paid out of the tip jar.

But the Fourth District Court of Appeal in San Diego said Tuesday that customers at the Seattle-based chain's 1,350 California outlets intend their tips to go to everyone who serves them, supervisors as well as baristas. There's nothing unfair or illegal about Starbucks' policy of dividing up the money according to the hours each employee worked, the court said.

By leaving money in a box near the cash register, "a customer would necessarily understand the tip will be shared among the employees who provide the service," Justice Judith Haller said in the 3-0 ruling. "There is no danger the tipping public is being misled by allowing Starbucks shift supervisors to obtain their fair share of the tipping proceeds." ..........(more)

The complete piece is at: http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2009/0...

NeedleCast  (1000+ posts)      Tue Jun-02-09 09:44 PM
Response to Original message
 
1. Terrible Ruling

When I was a server, I was lucky enough to never work at a place where managers or GMs were raking the servers for tipout. We did have to tip out to bar staff and bussers (which was fine with me). This is just ripping off the "little man" to allow people who make substantially more to dip their hand in the cookie jar too.

northzax (1000+ posts)        Tue Jun-02-09 09:49 PM
Response to Reply #1
 
4. shift supers make a dollar fifty more an hour than a barista with equivalent service time. that's hardly 'substantially more' indeed, with the tips, the baristas in my store would make more than the super.

NeedleCast  (1000+ posts)      Tue Jun-02-09 09:53 PM
Response to Reply #4
 
6. Less issue with it then

If the shift supervisors are actually doing barista work as well, and are still hourly, they're entitled to the their share of the tip jar.

Raineyb  (1000+ posts)        Thu Jun-04-09 12:09 AM
Response to Reply #4
 
15. That's not really the point. If they do this in this case then it will certainly happen in an establishment where the shift supervisor does make substantially more than the servers and then what? You allow higher paid supervisors to literally take money out of the pockets of the lower paid workers? This is a court decision it doesn't make allowances for the shift supervisors making only slightly more than the servers.

northzax (1000+ posts)        Tue Jun-02-09 09:48 PM
Response to Original message
 
2. I have no problem with this

shift supervisors are hourly employees, who often work the line when there are other supervisors. in the store I work in, there is little difference between a 'shift supervisor' and a 'barista' from the perspective of a customer. the super may be on the register, on the bar, taking orders. they wear the same uniforms, etc.

I have been a supervisor in other retail environments, both hourly and salaried. (I am not currently in that role) if you are an hourly employee, you should share in the tips. we have a night guy who comes in and cleans (and does yoeman's work, I tell you.) he gets his share, without ever being in sight of customers. most of our 'partners' have never even met the guy.

(starbucks takes the weekly tips, adds them all up, divides by total hours worked by eligible employees and divvies them up weekly. this is done by partners, salaried management never touches the tips.) if you are salaried, no matter how much you work the line, you should be, and are, ineligible for tips.

NeedleCast  (1000+ posts)      Tue Jun-02-09 09:52 PM
Response to Reply #2
 
5. If that's the case, I have less problem with it

My reaction comes from people in the service industry, mainly restaurants, who have managers and GMs who are on salary who insist on getting tipped out. If shift supervisors are doing the same job as the baristas and still on hourly then I guess it's fine.

XemaSab  (1000+ posts)        Tue Jun-02-09 09:48 PM
Response to Original message

3. My question:

How much do baristas make and how much do managers make?

(And to clarify: if the barista makes $8 and the manager makes $10, that's a big difference than if the barista makes $8 and the manager makes $20.)

But still, if the manager is the one who waits on me, then why shouldn't the tip go to that person?

tammywammy  (1000+ posts)      Tue Jun-02-09 09:56 PM
Response to Reply #3
 
9. It's not that much difference

I don't remember, it's been a while since I worked at Starbucks. I think maybe there was a 50 cent or dollar raise when I attained shift supervisor from barista. Essentially we all did the same work, shift supervisors and baristas.

northzax (1000+ posts)        Tue Jun-02-09 09:57 PM
Response to Reply #3
 
10. this isn't about 'managers'

managers are salaried employees and ineligible for tips.

this is about 'shift supervisors' who are hourly employees who run the line, have keys to the safe, and are on the hook if there is a mistake made by anyone. they make about a dollar fifty more an hour than an equivalent barista when they are in supervisor mode, when a manager is on duty on the floor, the super is just a barista, making less money.

tips are pooled weekly by baristas and split up on a pro-rated basis by hours worked. it doesn't matter if you work the busy hours, the slow hours, opening or closing. you get the same per hour. and it's really not much (although every tip is appreciated, believe me.)

I have gotten tips as large as ten bucks (on a couple cups of coffee, that's a lot) and work the busiest hours at one of the busiest stores, and am happy to share with my colleagues who work the slower shifts. when I work a saturday afternoon, it will be packed, the store will generate a few thousand dollars in business in a few hours and there might be ten dollars in tips. but on a tuesday morning, when it's all regulars, the business might be half that, but there would be double the tips.

tourists don't tip, but regulars do. and most people who do leave a few cents. it's not a lot of money at all.

tammywammy  (1000+ posts)      Tue Jun-02-09 10:00 PM
Response to Reply #10
 
11. I had customers that would throw in $100 around Christmas time

Usually we made $2 to $2.50/hr in tips (at Christmas closer to $3).

When I managed a small coffee shop, I was hourly, but I never took tips. There we emptied out the jar at shift change or when someone new came on shift.

tammywammy  (1000+ posts)      Tue Jun-02-09 09:54 PM
Response to Original message
 
7. Yeah, well that's how we did it at the stores I worked at

Shift supervisors are still hourly and only make a little more per hour than the baristas. And there's really not much difference, the shift sup counted down money at the end of the day or prepared the daily deposit, when I was one I still cleaned bathrooms and served customers just like the baristas.

Now, the tips were never shared with the salaried managers.

SHRED  (1000+ posts)        Tue Jun-02-09 09:56 PM
Response to Original message
 
8. Boycott Starbucks and here is another reason:

How Is Starbucks Like Wal-Mart When It Comes to Workers' Rights?

* Starbucks CEO Howard Schultz believes workers should “believe in their hearts that management trusted them and treated them with respect...If they had faith in me and my motives, they wouldn’t need a union.”

* Starbucks has been lobbying for an anti-labor compromise on the Employee Free Choice Act, requiring 70% of workers to sign a union authorization card to form a union instead of the 50% proposed by this legislation.

* In the past few years, Starbucks has settled five labor complaints in New York, Michigan, and Minnesota that threatened to expose their unfair labor practices.

* In 2008, the National Labor Relations Board found Starbucks maintained multiple policies which interfered with workers' right to communicate about the union and about working conditions; terminated three workers in retaliation for union activity; and repeatedly discriminated against union supporters.

MORE:

http://stopstarbucks.com/articles.php 

Now, I thought the primitives liked Starbucks.

handmade34  (497 posts)      Tue Jun-02-09 10:08 PM
Response to Original message

12. If I ever am forced to buy coffee at a Starbucks again

I will not leave a tip in a jar. I find the ruling by the appeals court just wrong. If I were a supervisor, I would never ask the rest of the crew to share tips and if I were the server I would not expect to share my tips with my supervisor. It is not only about money and I don't care if the supervisor only makes 50 cents more than the servers.

It is just wrong and I suspect the judge has shares in Starbucks.... this is a black and white issue in my mind

northzax (1000+ posts)        Wed Jun-03-09 06:44 PM
Response to Reply #12
 
13. and on behalf of your future barista

thank you for making this stand. it's much more important that you do this than we get your tips, whatever a pittance they might be. I also challenge you to go into your local busy Starbucks at rush (8-10 AM is usually good) and tell me who the shift supervisor is. go ahead, pick them out.

handmade34  (497 posts)      Thu Jun-04-09 12:02 AM
Response to Reply #13
 
14. misunderstood

I have worked many jobs for tips. When in doubt, I always tip the person directly... not trying to say I won't tip.

northzax (1000+ posts)        Thu Jun-04-09 12:02 PM
Response to Reply #14
 
17. so you want the person to be fired for stealing from their colleagues?

interesting. who were you planning to tip personally? the cashier? the runner? the food guy? the barista on the bar? the guy cleaning the bathrooms?

there's a reason tips are pooled, that way everyone gets a piece, since it is everyone's efforts that earns said tip.

handmade34  (497 posts)      Thu Jun-04-09 01:13 PM
Response to Reply #17
 
18. I give you this one

I would never encourage a person to not share a tip if that was the understanding at the job. I understand what you are saying and unfortunately there are many people who do depend on tips when we all should always get a livable wage for doing our jobs.

I suppose it is a moot point because I do not go to Starbucks. I do eat out a lot and always tip (the person who waits on me) directly so that they can choose to do what they feel is best with the money- not to encourage cheating.

I have worked at numerous restaurants and they differ in how the tips are dealt with. It seems if there exists a lawsuit to begin with, someone, somewhere was unhappy with the practice of sharing tips with a supervisor.

I was merely stating that I, if I were a supervisor, would never expect to take tips when I was working with the people I supervised and if I was working with my supervisor, I would not expect to share my tips with that person.

As I said, it is not about the money; it is principle. In an equitable workplace all the people would get a decent wage to begin with. So, I get what you are saying and the problem is that I was not really addressing the concern you have but was ranting about my sense that there is much inequity in the workplace.

JI7  (1000+ posts)        Thu Jun-04-09 12:10 AM
Response to Original message
 
16. i know some people who have worked as shift supervisors and they said it sucks 

they don't get paid much more but have to do a lot more. many would just prefer to remain regular workers. and not get the few cents to about 2 dollars more an hour to be a supervisor.

[thundley4]

Most bars and taverns require that the wait staff give a certain percentage of tips to bartenders, at least the ones I've been to.

[The Village Idiot]

But the Fourth District Court of Appeal in San Diego said Tuesday that customers at the Seattle-based chain's 1,350 California outlets intend their tips to go to everyone who serves them, supervisors as well as baristas

They miss the point. A judge has decreed that he alone knows the intent of a tipper. That this is true in all cases somehow.

Thats utterly ridiculous.

[jtyangel]

I don't see what they are bellyaching over--I thought they were all for pooling the assets and distributing them to all? 


They just never carry their logic through when they are the ones trying to do the pinching of the 'tip'(read tax) jar and that money wasn't even given voluntarily or with any consent to split it. Yet they are all up in arms when  when someone they perceive as 'the little guy' has to split anything of his with everyone else. Disingenuous fools.

[ScubaGuy]

I don't see what they are bellyaching over--I thought they were all for pooling the assets and distributing them to all? 


They just never carry their logic through when they are the ones trying to do the pinching of the 'tip'(read tax) jar and that money wasn't even given voluntarily or with any consent to split it. Yet they are all up in arms when  when someone they perceive as 'the little guy' has to split anything of his with everyone else. Disingenuous fools.

They think even distribution of wealth is a great thing utill they're the ones who has to make a donation.  Just like taxes, they want them raised on everyone else.

[DixieBelle]

I don't see what they are bellyaching over--I thought they were all for pooling the assets and distributing them to all? 


They just never carry their logic through when they are the ones trying to do the pinching of the 'tip'(read tax) jar and that money wasn't even given voluntarily or with any consent to split it. Yet they are all up in arms when  when someone they perceive as 'the little guy' has to split anything of his with everyone else. Disingenuous fools.

[PatriotGame]

I don't see what they are bellyaching over--I thought they were all for pooling the assets and distributing them to all? 

Exactly!
I do not give a rat's ass as to WHAT the DUmmys are bellyaching over, just as long as they ARE bellyaching.
Misery loves company and it is apparently very popular at the DUmp.

Hey lurking DUmmys: Your angst is my pleasure.

[JohnnyReb]

DUmmie motto: Let's share "your" wealth not "my" wealth.

[RobJohnson]

None of the DUmmies commenting on the topic have to worry about spliting tips. None of them have jobs in the first place. 

[Tantal]

handmade34  (497 posts)      Tue Jun-02-09 10:08 PM
Response to Original message

12.  If I were a supervisor, I would never ask the rest of the crew to share tips and if I were the server I would not expect to share my tips with my supervisor. It is not only about money and I don't care if the supervisor only makes 50 cents more than the servers.

This is precisely why DUmmies should be prevented from going anywhere near economics. Let's say the barista makes $8/hr (plus, for argument's sake, another $3/hr in tips) and the shift supervisor makes $9/hr, but no tips. So the regular employee makes $11/hr and the supervisor is at $9/hr??? Why the hell would anyone ever be a supervisor? These idjit DUmmies always want to "stand up for the little guy" but give little thought to what the consequences of their actions will be.