Pretty much is about banning all semi-autos... we'll just call them assault guns

[dutch508]

Star Member Kaleva (17,253 posts)

A different way of defining what an assault weapon is


Last edited Tue Oct 10, 2017, 08:57 PM - Edit history (2)

Any semi-automatic weapon that fires a rimless, semi-rimmed, or rebated rim center-fire cartridge that has a bullet of less then 6.5mm in diameter or a metal based case length of less then 50.8mm or caseless ammunition of any dimension or any rimless, semi-rimmed or rebated Polymer-cased center-fire cartridge of any dimension.

The appearance of the gun has nothing to do with the above definition. The gun could look like a hunting rifle or it could look like something out of a Hollywood war movie. The gun could have a bayonet lug, grenade launcher, flash suppressor, pistol grip or folding stock and it might not be an assault weapon as defined by above. Or it could. It all depends on the action of the gun and the cartridge it fires.

Such a definition keeps things simple. All one has to do is first determine if the gun is a semi-automatic, see if the cartridge it is loaded with is a center-fire round and then measure the cartridge. No fuss. No muss.

If one has an issue with including semi-automatic handguns in the above, then one could refine it further by saying an assault weapon is a semi-automatic firearm that has a barrel length of 16" or longer and fires a rimless, semi-rimmed, or rebated rim center-fire cartridge that has a bullet of less then 6.5mm in diameter or a case length of less then 50.8mm.

A semi-automatic, or self-loading, firearm is a weapon that performs all steps necessary to prepare the weapon to fire again after firing—assuming cartridges remain in the weapon's feed device or magazine. By pulling the trigger and firing, the gun uses the energy of the fired cartridge to cycle the action of the firearm to eject the spent case and advance the next available cartridge into position which allows another shot to be fired when the trigger is pulled again.

A center-fire cartridge is a cartridge with a primer located in the center of the cartridge case head.

"The rimmed cartridge is the oldest of the types and has a rim that is significantly larger in diameter than the base of the cartridge. "

"On a rimless case, the rim is the same diameter as the base of the case; it is known as an extractor groove."

"On a semi-rimmed case the rim projects slightly beyond the base of the case, though not as much as a rimmed cartridge."

"Rebated rim cartridges have a rim that is significantly smaller in diameter than the base of the case, serving only for extraction."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rim_%28firearms%29

Rimmed cartridges do not have an extractor groove.

According to the Sporting Arms and Ammunition Manufacturers' Institute (SAAMI), a cartridge is "a single round of ammunition consisting of the case, primer and propellant with or without one or more projectiles." Only the projectile portion is the bullet.

The case length of a 7.62x39mm cartridge is about 38.7mm

 


Polymer-cased ammunition (or PCA) is the concept applied to define the alternative to use polymer-based casings instead of metal-based (brass, aluminum or steel mainly) in the manufacturing of ammunition.

Caseless ammunition is a type of small arms ammunition that eliminates the cartridge case that typically holds the primer, propellant, and projectile together as a unit.


Steps to determine if a firearm is an assault weapon

1. If the firearm is a semi-automatic, proceed to step 2.

2. If the barrel of the firearm is 16" or longer, proceed to step 3.

3. Examine the ammunition the firearm is designed to fire or is currently loaded with or has been modified to fire. Proceed to step 4 if any of the following conditions are met:

a. The ammunition is a center fire rimless, semi-rimmed or rebated rim cartridge with a bullet diameter of less then 6.5mm

or

b. The center fire cartridge case is less then then 50.8mm long

or

c. the ammunition is a caseless cartridge of any dimension

or

d. the cartridge is a Polymer-cased ammunition of any dimension

4. The gun in question is an assault weapon.

Note: I first posted this back in 2012

 

Star Member msongs (44,660 posts)
1. any loaded gun aimed at another human being is an assault weapon nt

JoeStuckInOH (511 posts)
4. Simpler: Any semiauto centerfire rifle or brace-equipped-pistol capable of accepting detachable mags

Any semi-automatic centerfire rifle or brace-equipped-pistol capable of accepting detachable magazines or belted ammunition.

No muss... no fuss. That definition covers pretty much any rifle of significant caliber that can go on rampages and quickly dump hundreds of rounds in mere minutes.

It doesn't rely on cosmetic features or the specific name of the guns for the ban - both of which are easily circumvented by gun manufacturers.

It does not infringe on the right to keep effective tactical rifles for reasonable self defense. Your self defense gun can have as many rounds as you or the manufacturer deems reasonable & reliable so long as the magazine is internal to the gun or the box magazine is permanently affixed to the firearm.

It doesn't impact the ability to use common sporting rifles or even tactical style rifles for hunting & sporting purposes. Again, your gun can have as many rounds as you or the manufacturer deems reasonable & reliable so long as the magazine is internal to the gun or the box magazine is permanently affixed to the firearm.

Plinker rimfire guns, typically of diminutive caliber, are obviously not a mass shooting concern and are excluded from the definition.

Most non-rifle based handguns are inherently exempted from the definition, too. In recent years, "pistol arm braces" have been used on rifles to skirt the ATF NFA regulations on short barreled rifles and short barreled shotguns (which are both as tightly regulated as machine guns). So this makes sure to close the loophole of pistols that are effectively identical in lethality to the rifles they're based upon.


Now that we have an effective definition for "Assault Weapon" what do we do with it?

We add them to the NFA list of controlled items in the NFRTR under a new category, "Assault Weapon". They will be legislated identically to machine guns, silencers, destructive devices, and short rifles/shotguns. Fingerprints, photos, $200 excise tax, and thurough background check. This avoids the problems of a ban and the subsequent necessity to confiscate and reimburse owners of assault weapons. It also avoids the constitutional issues of "banning" common use firearms relevant to militia use... they're not banned at all.

Always Right (51 posts)
19. Not sure anyone can define semi-auto AW

First, I'd define what an assault rifle is as a selective-fire rifle (meaning machine gun) that uses an intermediate cartridge and a detachable magazine. As I would include full auto "pistols" in the above definition if they use an intermediate cartridge but do not meet the legal definition of rifle as they would still be lumped in the category of machine guns, regardless of length.

As for assault weapon, that would be any kind of weapon you could assault someone with.

What you are really asking for is how I would define the category of semi-auto weapons typically considered most dangerous. Unfortunately I don't think that is possible as no matter where I draw the line on dimensions, capacity or any other factor, it could still be avoided by a slight change.

For example, you talked about having a fixed magazine, we that didn't work in California as it was easily worked around by the Bullet Button. Change the law to outlaw the Bullet Button, the next day the Bullet Button Reloaded was available.

Even if you made it so the magazine didn't come out, you would still need an arbitrary magazine limit or you would get something like this...
That is a helical rotary magazine that holds 100 rounds.

Look at New York. There they passed an AW ban but since that is just a made up media term and can't really be defined, it didn't take long for New York AW ban compliant guns to make it back into the market (though they look a bit weird).

While I don't like to give my personal opinion, I think the bottom line is either you ban everything or nothing as everything else is just useless regulation and a waste of time that only causes more gun sales and more gun profits as people buy up stuff before it is banned then buy the new stuff to get around the ban.

Want to have a heart attack? Check out this link.

[link:http://www.store.silencerco.com/products/maxim-50|]

That is a 50 caliber rifle with built in silencer but guess what, it is available by mail with no paperwork and no background check. (Note: buying a gun over the internet still requires it be sent to a local dealer who then does the paperwork and background check)

How is it possible the gun linked above is totally unrestricted? Well for starters, it isn't a gun. Under the law, guns are only modern weapons and that gun is a muzzle loader and counts as an antique. Also, the silencer isn't legally a silencer either as silencers can be mounted on guns while a silencer mounted on anything else is just a muffler, like on your car. As that muzzle loader isn't a gun and the silencer can't be removed as it is welded on, then it isn't a silencer. Since it isn't a gun or a silencer, then it is legal to sell like a hammer or any other tool.

Trying to define AW is like squeezing a balloon. You won't make the balloon smaller, it just puffs out where you aren't pressing.

it's all about banning guns. Period. The left just likes to dress things up to make it seem like it's not offensive...

[BlueStateSaint]

The DUmp doesn't like semiautomatics?  I have one thing to say--

Come and get them.

LEOs aren't that stupid and suicidal.  The military?  No effin' way.  DUmmies?  Hopefully, they aren't, if they want to live.  If they are, let's get it on.

[DumbAss Tanker]

An assault gun?



That Wiki entry is kind of weird.  The type of cartridge rim is pretty irrelevant, it's just that there don't happen to be any common rimmed cartridges that are suitable for use, it'd be entirely possible to develop one, just that the mags would have a serious curve like a Chauchat in 8mm Lebel.  And why 6.5mm and below?  That would mean an M16 in 5.56 and and AKS74 would be assault weapons, but an AK47 or an M16 in 6.8 SPC or 7.62x39 would not be, and completely leaves out the O.G. - the Sturmgewehr in 8mm Kurz.  It's like the definition was written by some either a myopic engineer thinking of one particular rifle or trolls from arf.com.
 

[Maverick1987]

And they thought the first civil war was messy...

Die in a fire, MFers 

[Crazy Horse]

An assault gun?



That Wiki entry is kind of weird.  The type of cartridge rim is pretty irrelevant, it's just that there don't happen to be any common rimmed cartridges that are suitable for use, it'd be entirely possible to develop one, just that the mags would have a serious curve like a Chauchat in 8mm Lebel.  And why 6.5mm and below? That would mean an M16 in 5.56 and and AKS74 would be assault weapons, but an AK47 or an M16 in 6.8 SPC or 7.62x39 would not be, and completely leaves out the O.G. - the Sturmgewehr in 8mm Kurz.  It's like the definition was written by some either a myopic engineer thinking of one particular rifle or trolls from arf.com.

Because after that, he said "OR" a case length less than 50.8 mm, which would encompass the 6.8 SPC and 7.62x39.  So fine, here is my new AR in 0.300 Win Mag, 0.260 Remington and more importantly my new Springfield M1A chambered in my favorite 30.06 Springfield that I already have thousands upon thousands of rounds, including thousands and thousands of black tipped rounds.

[FiddyBeowulf]

After they eliminate the smaller calibers they will go after the larger ones or higher velocity ones for being "armor piercing" or some BS.

[SVPete]

Star Member Kaleva (17,253 posts)

A different way of defining what an assault weapon is


Last edited Tue Oct 10, 2017, 08:57 PM - Edit history (2)

Any semi-automatic weapon that fires a rimless, semi-rimmed, or rebated rim center-fire cartridge that has a bullet of less then 6.5mm in diameter or a metal based case length of less then 50.8mm or caseless ammunition of any dimension or any rimless, semi-rimmed or rebated Polymer-cased center-fire cartridge of any dimension.

So, since an AK-47 shoots a 7.62 diameter bullet an AK-47 isn't an "assault weapon"?

The .22 semi-auto my Dad had that shot nothing larger than .22 Long Rifle is an "assault weapon"?

Paranoia strikes DU-folk much less deep than ignorance and stupidity.

   Since definitions are utterly fluid and re-writable by anyone regardless of authority, I'm defining DU members' keyboards as Stupidity Assault Weapons.  

[hillneck]

Star Member Kaleva (17,253 posts)

Hey DUmmie, you're a special kind of stupid.   

[Old n Grumpy]

How about if we call all liberals and progressives mentally ill, can we then baker act them and lock them up?

[DumbAss Tanker]

Because after that, he said "OR" a case length less than 50.8 mm, which would encompass the 6.8 SPC and 7.62x39.  So fine, here is my new AR in 0.300 Win Mag, 0.260 Remington and more importantly my new Springfield M1A chambered in my favorite 30.06 Springfield that I already have thousands upon thousands of rounds, including thousands and thousands of black tipped rounds.

Great news for my FAL collection, of course none of them are selective fire.  The Para config one is shorter than a '16 with the stock folded, too...

 

[Crazy Horse]

Great news for my FAL collection, of course none of them are selective fire.  The Para config one is shorter than a '16 with the stock folded, too...

 

 

[Airwolf]

Banning guns hasn't stopped the terrorist in the Middle East from getting them. Afghanistan has a long history of people making guns to fight with and It seems that the brain trust over at DU has forgotten about how easy it was and still is to make zip guns from average everyday hardware items. Banning guns isn't the answer, banning criminals is. Put them away and don't let them out before they have served a full sentence.

[BattleHymn]

That's the most I've ever seen a DUmmie use "rim" in a post, outside of the faggot forum. 

[BattleHymn]

or trolls from arf.com.

^^^My vote is on this.