A Christian Bowling Bouncy.

[dutch508]

jogi1969 (141 posts) http://www.democraticunderground.com/123050050

debating a christian - little help


Hello

I have been lurking on DU for a while;
I come here to read posts and learn.

I have a group of friends who I go bowling with on Saturday, nominally we just talk BS about our game but a new group member started bringing up religion. At first it started with innocuous bible verses, which was easy enough to ignore but when I was asked directly do I believe I stated I am an atheist.

So the person is taken aback - DILLIGAF - and I enjoyed the game, but like a good christian he kept quoting bible verses and telling me that god 'loves' me and asking why would I reject it. So I asked what about the millions of children who will be raped/sold into sexual slavery/abused by the time we go home. His response was to tell me about some inspirational person who gives motivational speeches to churches - a woman who was sexually abused by her father for a decade and how she was able to overcome that terrible life and now - this is good - is a millionaire and that is proof that god can bring something good out of horror. Which I responded with god didn't do shit while she was getting raped; and he wont do shit about what will happen by the time we wake up tomorrow.

God didn't rape that woman, man did. Just as man did all the rest of those things. God gave each person to choice to do good or evil. God doesn't control our lives- he offers us a guide how to life a better life. You chose to do good or to do evil. In your explanation above you don't believe in God because bad things happen on earth. What would you be if God didn't allow you or anyone else to sin? What would you as a person be like? You are human and aware of your life because God let's you be.

At this point he asks me what do I have to lose - Pascals wager - so to shut him down I said "I do not accept Jesus as my personal savior and I deny the holy ghost" which stopped the proselytizing.

Yesterday someone from the group stopped by and wanted to hang out so after we smoked a blunt he starts in on the religion angle, he asks me why did I say that I rejected the holy ghost as that puts me in danger. So I tell him a little story;

Lets say that I am driving and I get carjacked - the guy puts a gun to my head and tells me to drive, the first homeless person I see the gunman tells me to give the homeless person all of the cash I have - which I do because I don't want to get shot. The gunman then tells me to go to a ATM and withdraw all of my money even my savings and we drive around and I give every homeless person I see one half of the money until it is all gone. The gunman then takes me to a deserted road and jumps out leaving me alone and broke.

I ask did I do a good thing?
he says yes.
but I did it under duress did I not?
he says yes
So I did not have a choice right?
he again agrees

That's when I ask how is that different than telling me that I am putting my soul in danger?
IF I accept Jesus THEN I get eternal life and all the boring shit that comes with it
IF I DO NOT accept Jesus THEN I get punished.

Same principal - either do what the gunman (Jesus) says or get shot(go to hell) how is that a choice?
he responds that Jesus is not a gunman and he loves me. He went on to give me testimony about his 'personal relationship' with Jesus and how much he suffered for me - this lasted about 30 minuets.
After he stopped talking I again pointed out that when I die that is the choice - either accept Jesus and the doctrine of Christianity OR punishment for eternity - which is not a choice at all like the gunman analogy.

He then states that just by me saying there is a choice after death is amounts to me tacitly saying that god exists.
After I stopped laughing I pointed out that when I say god-damn I am not referring to any deity, just like when I say oh shit I am not referring to actual shit.

So in order to get the point across I changed it from Jesus to a unicorn - if a unicorn threatened me with eternal punishment OR believe in unicorns that is still not a choice.
His response was to repeat that it is a choice, I am choosing to not believe.
I said a choice made under the threat of eternal punishment takes away choice.

I tried for over 2 hours to get the point across but we went round and round with the gunman analogy.

Unless I miss my guess I'm gonna hear it on Saturday from this guy and the bible thumper, any ideas on what to expect and how to counter their arguments?

What a miserable person. My guess is that you won't be getting alot of invitations to bowl or anything else.

Warpy (86,714 posts)
1. Debating the faithful is not going to get you anywhere because the rules are completely different.

Faith is unreasonable, illogical, and incapable of proof.

You're trying to use logic to counter a totally illogical system. In addition, you are threatening to take a binkie away from a two year old. The outcome of that is never going to be good because that binkie is what helps him cope with a world he suspects is both hostile and impersonal.

My best advice is to walk away from this one.

ETA: The riddle of Epicurus is a good parting shot complete with a reminder that the devil Christians use to square an all-good god with evil in the world could function only with the permission of that all good god.

 

BooBrown (17 posts)
16. Agree

It's a mistake to get into a jesus argument with True Believers. Nothing you say will open their minds. You just end up exhausted and frustrated.

So instead of playing by their rules, here's a couple comebacks that have served me well.

1. If someone asks if you are superstitious (AKA christian), just smile and say "Why do you ask?" And then ignore them.

2. If someone tries to engage you in christian conversation, just smile and say "How about that?" And then ignore them.

Just because some idiot asks you a question or tries to convert you doesn't mean you have to answer them or listen to them. That just encourages them. But smiling while nicely telling them to **** off, confuses them.

So walk away. Let it go like water off a duck's back.

You need some new friends.

Freelancer (470 posts)
5. Ask them if their God is capable of creating a human being that doesn't believe in him.

Last edited Tue Mar 1, 2016, 04:58 PM - Edit history (1)

"Well, yes," They'll probably say. Well, (point to yourself) "Here I am."

You've made plain your revulsion with religion. Make it clear to them that the revulsion you experience isn't voluntary -- that religion activates your mental gag reflex, making it IMPOSSIBLE for you to swallow it, (or for you to receive it through any other orifice, for that matter). It's NOT a choice. It's NOT your choice. It is a FACT of your being. So, either, from one point of view, you were made this way by God, in which case anyone trying to convert you is at odds with God's design of you, or you represent a psychological mutation that makes you averse/immune to religion, and they are rejecting the basis of the theory of evolution... or both.

 

[tanstaafl]

jogi1969 (Low post count mole)

I have your solution:

Find a new sport.

[Big Dog]

That was a poorly-done bouncy; ergo, a True DUmmy wrote it.

This is an example of the polar opposite of the No True Scotsman  fallacy.

[I_B_Perky]

Warpy (86,714 posts)
1. Debating the faithful is not going to get you anywhere because the rules are completely different.

Faith is unreasonable, illogical, and incapable of proof.

I feel the same way about you nuts that worship the globull warming nonsense.

[Zathras]

I feel the same way about you nuts that worship the globull warming nonsense.

Or liberalism, socialism and many other sacred cows of the left.

[I_B_Perky]

Or liberalism, socialism and many other sacred cows of the left.

H5!!!!

[Fourwinds]

Probably  completely made up.

1. Says he was a long time lurker. Basically getting the lay of the land before he posted.

2. Finds out two favorite DU activities are smoking weed and bashing Christianity.  Tailors his story to incorporate these activities to maximise moonbat street cred.

[Carl]

 

[Movie buff- The Sequel]

Probably  completely made up.

1. Says he was a long time lurker. Basically getting the lay of the land before he posted.

2. Finds out two favorite DU activities are smoking weed and bashing Christianity.  Tailors his story to incorporate these activities to maximise moonbat street cred.

Good point, especially the second point.
IN addition, he claims that both he and the evil Christian smoke pot. There aren't a whole lot of Christians that smoke pot.

[FiddyBeowulf]

Lets say that I am driving and I get carjacked - the guy puts a gun to my head and tells me to drive, the first homeless person I see the gunman tells me to give the homeless person all of the cash I have - which I do because I don't want to get shot. The gunman then tells me to go to a ATM and withdraw all of my money even my savings and we drive around and I give every homeless person I see one half of the money until it is all gone. The gunman then takes me to a deserted road and jumps out leaving me alone and broke.

I ask did I do a good thing?
he says yes.
but I did it under duress did I not?
he says yes
So I did not have a choice right?
he again agrees

Replace the carjacker with the government and the story sounds a lot like how taxes work.

[FlaGator]

I feel the same way about you nuts that worship the globull warming nonsense.

I'd be happy to debate warpy using reason and logic. From my point of view it is the militant atheists who refuse to accept a logical, rational argument about the existence  of a creator God.