Remember how Progoldytes assured us their death cult only wanted to help

[SSG Snuggle Bunny]

those suffering from pain-ridden terminal illness.

No, they promised, idolizing people like Jack Kevorkian would not result in a general license on suicide.

You remember that...

...don't you?

smirkymonkey (13,952 posts)

Helping a Suicide When the End isn't Near
   
 http://www.nytimes.com/roomfordebate/2015/09/10/helping-a-suicide-when-the-end-isnt-near

NY Times Point/Counterpoint article - What do you think?

Personally, I am with Kleimann, and I think this is an important issue in this country.

smirkymonkey (13,952 posts)

3. The point is, should doctors help?
 
I think so. Anyone can commit suicide, but why not give people an option to do it painlessly, peacefully. Wouldn't that be better than having a family have to scrape someone off the sidewalk or see their brain splattered across the wall of the room?

I'm okay with finding your brains splattered across the wall of the room.

In fact, if there's anything I can do to help just let me know.

PowerToThePeople (7,112 posts)

4. I agree.

I am all in favour of Doctor assisted suicide.

Lead from the front asshole.

smirkymonkey (13,952 posts)

2. Kick

Is nobody interested in this issue? I happen to think it's very important.

fasttense (16,390 posts)

5. It is your life, you can do with it what you want

The state can't really stop you from committing suicide. It can only make it more difficult. I can see why a doctor would Not want to assist but I'm sure for a buck there are doctors who would help.

I have always found it reassuring that if life becomes unbearable there is always a way out. But then I have found that everything changes even what you thought was unbearable. Choose wisely, this maybe your only chance at life.

FUN FACT: The posters in that thread are also virulent anti-RKBA. One of their favorite tricks is to count gun related suicides with gun related homicides to inflate the numbers.

Yet they approve of suicide.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10027166496

[JohnnyReb]

Doctor assisted suicide.....you don't need a doctor to push you off a tall building....anyone can do that for you.

[Big Dog]

I am in favor of suicide. I reserve the right to live my life on my terms, including the right to end it on my terms.

I am in favor of doctors having the choice to provide physician-assisted suicide for patients, if the doctor chooses to provide the service.

I am vehemently opposed to taxpayer dollars being expended on assisted suicide services, or providers being required to provide assisted suicide.

[SVPete]

Doctor-assisted suicide inevitably leads to:

* Perfectly healthy but depressed people acting on momentary impulse;

* Death-fascinated doctors - a tiny percentage of doctors, but capable of significant harm - like Kevorkian, gain a legalized-murder playground;

* Greedy relatives with POA "assisting" Granny and Gramps if they are too "obstinate";

* If ZPG or VHE folks gain government power, an obligation to die by a certain age.

Marginally relevant to the above, but relevant to DAS, Mrs. SVPete works with a hospice. In principle, a patient entering hospice care has some sort of disease that is no longer treatable (= ending its progress) and will soon (= in 6 months) be fatal. Hospice care consists of ceasing to fight the disease and instead making the final hours/days/weeks/months of the dying process as comfortable as possible - letting death happen naturally rather than by an act of suicide.

In reality, some hospice patients who have such a disease and 6-months-left-to-live diagnosis live longer, sometimes years longer. OTOH, some patients who are believed to be facing weeks or months of discomfort and pain die within 24 or 48 hours of entering hospice care. IOW, doctors' honest, best, diagnoses sometimes are incorrect, not suitable for a precipitate, permanent decision/act.

[freedumb2003b]

Doctor-assisted suicide inevitably leads to:

* Perfectly healthy but depressed people acting on momentary impulse;

* Death-fascinated doctors - a tiny percentage of doctors, but capable of significant harm - like Kevorkian, gain a legalized-murder playground;

* Greedy relatives with POA "assisting" Granny and Gramps if they are too "obstinate";

* If ZPG or VHE folks gain government power, an obligation to die by a certain age.

Marginally relevant to the above, but relevant to DAS, Mrs. SVPete works with a hospice. In principle, a patient entering hospice care has some sort of disease that is no longer treatable (= ending its progress) and will soon (= in 6 months) be fatal. Hospice care consists of ceasing to fight the disease and instead making the final hours/days/weeks/months of the dying process as comfortable as possible - letting death happen naturally rather than by an act of suicide.

In reality, some hospice patients who have such a disease and 6-months-left-to-live diagnosis live longer, sometimes years longer. OTOH, some patients who are believed to be facing weeks or months of discomfort and pain die within 24 or 48 hours of entering hospice care. IOW, doctors' honest, best, diagnoses sometimes are incorrect, not suitable for a precipitate, permanent decision/act.

You have cases of each of these, right?

[Big Dog]

Doctor-assisted suicide inevitably leads to:

Pete, since you asserted the inevitability of your outcomes, I'm confident you can provide examples.

[SVPete]

You have cases of each of these, right?

Perfectly healthy but depressed people acting on momentary impulse: This has been going on for years in the Netherlands, so this was hardly even a predition.

Death-fascinated doctors... like Kevorkian, gain a legalized-murder playground: I cited an example, only he did it illegally (actually, Kevorkian was a two-fer, some of the people he killed were depressed rather than terminally ill).

Greedy relatives with POA "assisting" Granny and Gramps if they are too "obstinate": Do you seriously doubt healthcare POAs have already been abused to withhold medical care for treatable (= potentially stoppable/reversible)? It's a very tiny step from killing by withholding care to killing by DAS.

If ZPG or VHE folks gain government power, an obligation to die by a certain age: This was the one, possibly, "out there" prediction I made. That acknowledged, the Zero Population Growth people have been around since 1968, and the Voluntary Human Extinction Movement has been around since 1991. These are far from new ideas. Further, the medical community has had for well over a century doctors who favor killing the "unfit" and aged. Hitler actually did it, in accord with his view of "unfit", but it was an idea that had been around EuroLand for decades before.

I think it beyond doubt that there are Peter Singer equivalents out there who are preaching their modernized version of this 19th century idea. To be sure, the US is, right now, far from buying into the idea of an obligation to die; 35 years ago the idea of same-sex marriage was unthinkable outside of very small activists' circles. I think creating a tool the ZPG/VHE people could use to implement their goal of reducing the Earth's human population is horribly unwise.

Edit: Geez, BD, give me a few minutes to find f2003b's post and type a response. Further, I don't type 180WPM, so you posted your 06:49:55 PDT post while I was typing my 07:07:35 PDT post, and you posted your 07:30:53 PDT post while I was typing this response to f2003b.

[98ZJUSMC]

Doctor assisted suicide.....you don't need a doctor to push you off a tall building....anyone can do that for you.

I encourage all (D)Ummies to contact me for suicide assistance.  You can trust me.  I will be the most enthusiastic supporter of your last conscious act that you could possibly have.

All free of charge.

In fact, I'll give you $10.00 before I push.  Call today!!

Caution:  The last three words you will hear in your misearable life, echoing in your ears for all eternity on the way to the pavement will be: Reagan was right.

[JohnnyReb]

About time to watch "Logan's Run" again, huh? Thirty was the magic number.

[SVPete]

About time to watch "Logan's Run" again, huh? Thirty was the magic number.

The closest I've come to seeing any dystopian movies was "2001: A Space Odyssey". So I haven't seen (or read) "Logan's Run" or "Soylent Green".

[98ZJUSMC]

I am in favor of suicide. I reserve the right to live my life on my terms, including the right to end it on my terms.

I am in favor of doctors having the choice to provide physician-assisted suicide for patients, if the doctor chooses to provide the service.

I am vehemently opposed to taxpayer dollars being expended on assisted suicide services, or providers being required to provide assisted suicide. Definitely NOT!

This is very,  very close to where I stand.  Some people are simply incapable of overcoming severe depression.  It is one of my major fallings-out with Catholicism.  I simply refuse to believe that a loving God would want someone to live, perhaps for decades, in constant torment or as a drugged out zombie.  The authenticity of the individuals debilitation is between them and God.

[SVPete]

Re the situation in the Netherlands, as well as Belgium and Switzerland:

http://www.patientsrightscouncil.org/site/holland-background/

http://www.patientsrightscouncil.org/site/holland/

http://alexschadenberg.blogspot.com/2014/04/the-trouble-with-dying.html

These provide links to news articles, so anyone not liking these sources can backtrack their claims to the information underlying their claims.

Here is an amicus brief for a case involving multiple doctors' and multiple POA holders' withholding medical treatment where treatment was still possible with good chance of success:

http://autisticadvocacy.org/2014/05/amicus-brief-wisconsin-case/

That latter case involved doctors at a government facility, so it shows how close we already are in the US to government requiring the deaths of certain types of people (i.e. my claim that I said was "out there" - it's less "out there" than I realized when I posted it and the acknowledgement; mea goofa).

[GOBUCKS]

I'm really disappointed that the Big Guy (who is dying) hasn't chimed in on this thread.

[Big Dog]

Pete, you said Doctor-assisted suicide inevitably leads to <list of assertions>.

For your statement to be true, two things would have to be true:
1. That each assertion has happened in every past instance (premise).
2. That each assertion must happen in every future instance (predictive value).

In Aristotelian terms, you must prove that A is a true premise, and A-->B (with no other possibilities). In Stoic logic, If A, then always B.

You have not yet proven these two things to be true. Would you care to try again?

[Big Dog]

This is very,  very close to where I stand.  Some people are simply incapable of overcoming severe depression.  It is one of my major fallings-out with Catholicism.  I simply refuse to believe that a loving God would want someone to live, perhaps for decades, in constant torment or as a drugged out zombie.  The authenticity of the individuals debilitation is between them and God.

Well said.

[SVPete]

Pete, you said Doctor-assisted suicide inevitably leads to <list of assertions>.

For your statement to be true, two things would have to be true:
1. That each assertion has happened in every past instance (premise).
2. That each assertion must happen in every future instance (predictive value).

In Aristotelian terms, you must prove that A is a true premise, and A-->B (with no other possibilities). In Stoic logic, If A, then always B.

You have not yet proven these two things to be true. Would you care to try again?

I demonstrated that 3 of my 4 claims have happened. I acknowledged/admitted that my 4th claim was not a certainty, but demonstrated that something analogous has happened, in Hitler's Germany, and demonstrated that the paths to what I claimed already exist.

In summation:

* I showed that 3 of my 4 claims have and are happening;

* I showed that, while "inevitable" was an acknowledged overstatement on my part in regard to my 4th claim, it is very possible, with the forces to do it already present.

If you don't recognize my responses to be responsive, that is not my problem. Enjoy your 25% "victory" if you regard it to be one.

[CollectivismMustDie]

I am in favor of suicide. I reserve the right to live my life on my terms, including the right to end it on my terms.

I am in favor of doctors having the choice to provide physician-assisted suicide for patients, if the doctor chooses to provide the service.

I am vehemently opposed to taxpayer dollars being expended on assisted suicide services, or providers being required to provide assisted suicide.

Thats more or less where I stand as well.

This is my life. There are many like it but this one belongs to me and does not belong to any others who happen to have one like it. What I do with it is between me and the almighty, but my earthly decisions rest with me and no other.


CMD

[Big Dog]

I demonstrated that 3 of my 4 claims have happened. I acknowledged/admitted that my 4th claim was not a certainty, but demonstrated that something analogous has happened, in Hitler's Germany, and demonstrated that the paths to what I claimed already exist.

In summation:

* I showed that 3 of my 4 claims have and are happening;

* I showed that, while "inevitable" was an acknowledged overstatement on my part in regard to my 4th claim, it is very possible, with the forces to do it already present.

If you don't recognize my responses to be responsive, that is not my problem. Enjoy your 25% "victory" if you regard it to be one.

Pete, this is what I call a "discussion". Some people call it a "debate". I keep my philosophical and rhetorical blades sharp by engaging in "discussions" (which some call "debates") on complex and difficult subjects, many of which have emotional as well as rational components.

If you don't care to engage in a discussion (which some call a "debate"), then I respect your wish and bid you "good day".

[Boudicca]

Thats more or less where I stand as well.

This is my life. There are many like it but this one belongs to me and does not belong to any others who happen to have one like it. What I do with it is between me and the almighty, but my earthly decisions rest with me and no other.


CMD

Amen.  And should I be so unfortunate as to be dying in slow motion intractable pain as I have witnessed with loved ones recently, I would chose to depart life so as to spare my dearest from watching me die in agony.  I would never deny anyone the right to live out whatever existence they can endure at the bitter end, but I would never expect them to deny me the chance to suicide if it were my decision and based on more than depression.  I've never known of one single person to exit hospice well again, but I have known some to linger and languish in seemingly perpetual agony, both of body and mind for themselves and mind for their loved ones.

Wow, depressing subject though.  I envy my furbabies, who have no clue and thus are free of internal conflict.  And also, they have me to make that final wrenching decision for them...and the first few I did try to prolong their lives (hospice care I suppose) but all it did was make my baby, and me, totally miserable and in the end, it all comes down to this:  two legs or four, we cannot escape this mortal coil but must shuffle off to the next adventure.  Not in a hurry to get there though!!

[I_B_Perky]

Thats more or less where I stand as well.

This is my life. There are many like it but this one belongs to me and does not belong to any others who happen to have one like it. What I do with it is between me and the almighty, but my earthly decisions rest with me and no other.


CMD

I agree.  I always take the side of personal freedom. My ass, my decision.