DFW in Germany shows that socialism does not work

[Carl]

It is a thread about how great it is that college is FREEEEEE in places but not here.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025839706

Wed Nov 19, 2014, 03:04 PM

gyroscope (431 posts)

Top universities in Europe (and Canada) are free or almost free
 
 Amazing.


7 countries where Americans can study at universities, in English, for free (or almost free)
October 29, 2014

Since 1985, U.S. college costs have surged by about 500 percent, and tuition fees keep rising. In Germany, they've done the opposite.

The country's universities have been tuition-free since the beginning of October, when Lower Saxony became the last state to scrap the fees. Tuition rates were always low in Germany, but now the German government fully funds the education of its citizens -- and even of foreigners.

Explaining the change, Dorothee Stapelfeldt, a senator in the northern city of Hamburg, said tuition fees "discourage young people who do not have a traditional academic family background from taking up study. It is a core task of politics to ensure that young women and men can study with a high quality standard free of charge in Germany."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/wp/2014/10/29/7-countries-where-americans-can-study-at-universities-in-english-for-free-or-almost-free/

 

About half way through this from the rich expat DFW.

Response to gyroscope (Original post)

Wed Nov 19, 2014, 03:39 PM

DFW (16,472 posts)
18. Don't get the wrong idea from this

If hundreds of thousands of Americans come flooding into European Universities that teach in English, looking for a free education, their system would break down. Plus, while tuition is free, living here is not. It's very expensive, actually.

The "free" education is not really "free," but is actually paid for by the high taxes imposed on the Europeans. They will not go for having their taxes pay for thousands of American kids looking for a freeload off their parents' taxes. They are already grumbling about having to subsidize a few million Eastern Europeans who are here in western Europe gaming the welfare system. The German welfare system was designed to help out Germans who were having a hard time, not Romanians and Bulgarians as well.

The education itself is often very elitist. When I was in college back in the States, I could get access to my professors, and that was at an Ivy League college. In Europe, they are barely to be found, and often don't want to be. In German universities, anyway, you study your major, period. No "all round" education.

Both my children, who are German citizens, fluent in both German and English, preferred to go to college in the States because they were tired of being taught by uncaring teachers who could never be fired. I was lucky enough to be able to cover that by blowing my inheritance on it (it was still worth it--I love how they turned out), and I realize not everyone has that option. But they had the choice and said "no way" to the system in the country and language they grew up in. It's not all paradise over here, and anyone contemplating it needs to thoroughly check out all angles before rushing over here.

Response to DFW (Reply #18)

Wed Nov 19, 2014, 03:46 PM

gyroscope (431 posts)
19. That's not really my point for posting the article

the fact that tuition is so low for European CITIZENS in Europe just go to show how insane the cost of college is for AMERICAN citizens in the US.

American students are getting absolutely fleeced by a corrupt educational system

Response to gyroscope (Reply #19)

Wed Nov 19, 2014, 04:03 PM

DFW (16,472 posts)
21. OK, I see what you're getting at

But it's kinda too late to follow their example. We can't very well seize Harvard or Stanford, and the European Universities are public, funded by taxpayer money. Plus, the universities in Germany, at least, have a cruel numbers game where your high school GPA is the sole factor that determines if you get in or not. There are always trade-offs.

Response to DFW (Reply #21)

Wed Nov 19, 2014, 04:14 PM

gyroscope (431 posts)
22. Test scores

its the same in the US where your grade and test scores determines what schools will admit you.

what's your point?

Response to gyroscope (Reply #22)

Wed Nov 19, 2014, 05:42 PM

DFW (16,472 posts)
28. US colleges don't rely only on that for admission

They interview you, check out the person behind the application.

In Germany, you are your GPA. It determines if you get a spot right away, a year or two down the road, or "forget about it." Since German universities are one trick pony schools, your shot at getting to study your chosen field is literally determined by your GPA. They even have a cutoff number for each chosen line of study. Very high for medicine, lower for academia, in between for chemistry or biology or physics. In the USA, both in my experience and in those of my daughters a generation later, the person applying was also taken into the equation. Maturity, motivation, outside interests, the sort of thing admissions committees are there for. In Germany, the admissions committee is a computer or a chart.

Response to DFW (Reply #28)

Wed Nov 19, 2014, 06:28 PM

gyroscope (431 posts)
33. Admission interviews

Maturity, motivation, outside interests, the sort of thing admissions committees are there for. In Germany, the admissions committee is a computer or a chart.


these things are important. but students who get good grades and test scores already tend to be the most mature and motivated to do well in college. the admission interview seems rather redundant because when the student has good grades it shows they already possess these qualities.

an average size university admits hundreds of new students every year, so it requires a huge amount of time and expense to interview every potential candidate. lets say 3,000 students apply for the fall semester at X University but the school only has 300 spaces available. can you imagine the amount of time and resources it would take to personally interview each of the 3,000 applicants?

German schools are good at keeping costs down (ie: no admission interviews) so they can provide high quality education at little or no cost. but apparently that's not the goal at schools in the US, where the the costs keeps skyrocketing every year.

Response to gyroscope (Reply #33)

Thu Nov 20, 2014, 02:05 AM

DFW (16,472 posts)
39. The quality of education at German schools is far from universally high

Have you ever lived here?

They have a system where students are put in a crushing mill of both competition and universally tenured for life teachers and professors who have no incentive to be good at what they do or care about the students they are supposed to educate. Many do, but plenty do not. My kids aren't the only ones we know who were happy to escape. Plenty of our friends here had the same experience with their own children, most of whom are bright or downright gifted. One, the son of a judge on the high tax court and a school director opted to get his university training in Holland. His sister, equally bright, is now a medical doctor, but because of the computer system (and incompetent math and biology teachers at our local high school) she just missed out on her computer-generated rating, and would have had to wait on tables for 2 or 3 years before finding a spot in a German medical school. She went to Austria. Others have gone to Australia, or, if their parents could afford it, the USA. Most have come home, but are relieved they got to go to university elsewhere. I laud the US system for keeping a human aspect in the admission process, and don't think it's a superfluous cost at all. We have enough robots running the place as it is (worse in Germany).

Yet you support inflicting this on everyone that can`t pay their way outside the lines. 

[franksolich]

You know, I'm starting to loathe the lumpenunterprimitiven gyroscope primitive, who doesn't know his place.  I hope the DFW primitive slaps him down good, to remind him.

[JohnnyReb]

Over paid socialist professors teaching black/wyminz/sexual subjects drive up college expenses.

[GOBUCKS]

Wed Nov 19, 2014, 04:03 PM

DFW (16,472 posts)
 the universities in Germany, at least, have a cruel numbers game where your high school GPA is the sole factor that determines if you get in or not. There are always trade-offs.

In other words, here it would be all whites and Asians.

Basketball programs would go to hell in a handbasket.

[DumbAss Tanker]

Over paid socialist professors teaching black/wyminz/sexual subjects drive up college expenses.

Well, you're right about the first part, but like DFW said (Not as directly as possible, but it's in there) the choice of degrees is in the hands of the government-run universities and not the students, and the curriculum for the valuable degrees there does not include that spacey-Stacey kind of Underwater Basketweaving 101 BS that makes up much of the education for ANY degree in the US.  In the US, requiring those time-wasting courses has a lot to do with interdepartmental politics in the Ivory Tower, making sure everybody's rice bowl gets filled by requiring all the students to take some of those liberal arts courses, than it does with any real well-defined concept of exactly what makes for a 'Well-rounded education.'   

Students taking chemistry, engineering, medicine, law, or any other technical/professional degree spend about zero time on that crap.  The generic dregs of college (DFW referred to 'Academia' in that regard), things like Soc or PoliSci degrees, are the places there where you'll find a bunch of timewasting Marxists and such idiots, destined to be losers like our own dear, useless DUers...I would say 'Someone has to wait tables,' but in Germany that's considered a real job and they look for people with some basic work ethic to do it instead of anyone who walks in the door.

[Chris_]

If they cut out the dead weight from colleges in the US, the price of tuition might actually drop.  Can't have that.

[HawkHogan]

Do Dummies realize that American education is so high because the government hands out excessive loans to anyone who wants to go to college? 

They do see the correlation, right??

[Ptarmigan]

If they cut out the dead weight from colleges in the US, the price of tuition might actually drop.  Can't have that.

College tuition has gone up much faster than inflation.

[Chris_]

College tuition has gone up much faster than inflation.

No shit.

I paid off Sallie Mae last year.  I still have a private loan I'm paying ten years after I enrolled.

[98ZJUSMC]

gyroscope (431 posts)
19. That's not really my point for posting the article

the fact that tuition is so low for European CITIZENS in Europe just go to show how insane the cost of college is for AMERICAN citizens in the US.

Then, your point is moot.  You orgasm over the possibility of having a school system like Germany.  A person who LIVES there and has for quite awhile, tells you the cost of living is ridiculous.  It is.  The instruction sucks.  It does.  Many European Universities get by on reputation only. His kids, who have lived probably since birth, would jump all over the chance to go to the States and PAY!!!!!!!

American students are getting absolutely fleeced by a corrupt educational system

That would be the evil Corporate Universities, wouldn't it?   

You know, I'm starting to loathe the lumpenunterprimitiven gyroscope primitive, who doesn't know his place.  I hope the DFW primitive slaps him down good, to remind him.

Has no idea what Germany, or any of Europe for that matter, is like and also has no idea how frigging expensive it is; yet argues with someone who lives there.  Notice the careful avoidance of the feelings of the average German citizen who despise Euroleeches and illegal free-loading immigrants......like Conservatives.

The power of Free Shit.   

Most have come home, but are relieved they got to go to university elsewhere. I laud the US system for keeping a human aspect in the admission process, and don't think it's a superfluous cost at all. We have enough robots running the place as it is (worse in Germany).

They ain't evil Conservatives.....   

German schools are good at keeping costs down (ie: no admission interviews) How do you know that?  You don't.  so they can provide high quality education at little or no cost. WHAT!?!?!?! but apparently that's not the goal at schools in the US, where the the costs keeps skyrocketing every year.

Everything he just told you sailed right over your empty head.

[DumbAss Tanker]

The funny part is, despite their own warts and shortcomings, Germany and England are the only ones where the collegiate education in technological disciplines is really worth a crap at all on an international resume when it's time to try to find that first career-field job.

[Wineslob]

Humm, Germany tax rate is about 45% plus a current gasoline price per gallon of over $5. I'm sure the DUmmies would love it there.

[GOBUCKS]

Do Dummies realize that American education is so high because the government hands out excessive loans to anyone who wants to go to college? 

They do see the correlation, right??

That is exactly right.

The unlimited availability of government-sponsored loans is the sole reason for skyrocketing college expenses.

If you park a boxcar full of free cash in front of every campus, it's foolish to expect the college won't take it.

The government shovels out the cash, and the colleges accept it.

No one cares that it's causing a lifelong burden for mushbrained kids who think a photojournalism degree is worth a $300,000 debt.

And no, the DUmmies don't see that.

[txradioguy]

Humm, Germany tax rate is about 45% plus a current gasoline price per gallon of over $5. I'm sure the DUmmies would love it there.

As long as they got their government freebies they wouldn't care.

[franksolich]

Do Dummies realize that American education is so high because the government hands out excessive loans to anyone who wants to go to college? 

They do see the correlation, right??

I remember how the Reagan administration was oftentimes accused of "cutting" financial aid for college students, when in fact it was increased substantially.

But despite that such aid was increased, it became more and more difficult to afford attending college.

This was because college administrators, when looking at the "big picture," saw that, hey, students had access to more money, so why don't we raise our prices?

[JohnnyReb]

If a college education is so great, then why do the more recent crop of billionaires seem to all be college dropouts?

[obumazombie]

If a college education is so great, then why do the more recent crop of billionaires seem to all be college dropouts?

I would trade my college degree for that type of wealth.

[Dori]

If a college education is so great, then why do the more recent crop of billionaires seem to all be college dropouts?

And all the hippy DUmmies trying to get on SSI are still paying off their student loans. 

[GOBUCKS]

If a college education is so great, then why do the more recent crop of billionaires seem to all be college dropouts?

Billionaires are like two-headed calves, very rare and totally unpredictable.

Look at the data.

Dropping out of college greatly increases your chances of bouncing between shitty jobs for life, like a DUmmy.

Finishing a degree greatly increases your chances of reaching the American Dream.

Lots of exceptions on both sides of the fence, but the odds are overwhelming.

And with a little judgment a degree doesn't mean a crippling debt.

1-Commute
2-State or community college

That reduces the cost by about 80% with little effect on opportunities after graduation.