http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025129875Damn. Why
does she do that?
Paint her face so red she looks like a Nebraska Cornhuskers football fan.
demgurl (3,155 posts) Sat Jun 21, 2014, 12:39 AM
When Does Saying No, And Giving In, Become A Yes?
There has been a lot of talk over George Will's writing over the last couple of weeks. Talk of girls seeking status by saying they were raped. Debate over whether the reported numbers are too low or high. And talk about what actually constitutes rape.
For various reasons I have been talking to a lot of rape survivors as of late. Some have confided incidents which they have never told anyone else about. I have had people approach me publicly and even more have approached me in private. Tonight I found a private message from one such person. She wrote to me a few days ago and expressed the guilt she feels over what she could have done to prevent the three rapes she experienced.
The question of what could have been done to prevent a crime is not uncommon. For rape survivors it is not just a matter of a simple question. For survivors it is a question coupled with a lot of guilt. The question may fade but the guilt becomes a part of your being. It effects you and invades your thoughts. For some, the guilt will last a lifetime and cause much doubt.
I wrote to the woman telling her she should never feel guilt over a crime someone else commits. Tonight she replied with a rather lengthy message detailing her three rapes. On one occasion she explicitly said no. The rapist was a huge guy who grabbed her by the neck and hauled her into another room. At that point it was clear what he meant to do and she silently acquiesced. The guilt over this has haunted her thoughts and won't let her have peace. She asked me, "When does saying no and giving in become a yes?"
This is a question a lot of rape survivors struggle with. How do we define when a no magically turns into a yes? For me this was a very straight forward answer. A 'no' becomes a yes when you actively come onto the guy kissing and groping him. Or when you say, "Oh my god, f@ck me." All of us have been there at some point in time. We are tired after a long day at work and we tell our loved one 'no' or 'not now'. Maybe he kisses our ear in that special way or says something that just turns us on at that moment. We roll over and start kissing him and things develop. That is NOT rape. That is a legitimate turn around. He did not force himself on you or coerce you in any way. It does not become a 'yes' when you sense defeat or the possibility of getting hurt and you just lay there.
It is not consent if you say no and he aggressively pursues intercourse anyway. And another good clue it is rape is when he says, ""it will be okay just don't think about it". This was said to the woman by her 'friend'. If they do not want you to think about it then he knows as well as you do that it is not consensual.
There we have "the" word to describe when saying no, and giving in, is a yes. Was it consensual? If the answer is yes then it was not rape. If it was not, then it was rape. There are no exceptions to this. For sex not to equal rape it has to be consensual.
<<<still wondering why the dumbgirl primitive jams her big, uh, things, into her armpits.
Evergreen Emerald (10,292 posts) Sat Jun 21, 2014, 12:54 AM
1. It kills me that the victims always feel guilty
And the rapists generally have no guilt whatsoever.
The thing about silently acquiescing, they will generally use as much force as necessary...had she fought, the force would have increased and she would have been hurt even worse.
Ms. Hindenberg, who obviously never had a thing to worry about:
Warpy (76,963 posts) Sat Jun 21, 2014, 01:33 AM
4. She's likely not to have lived through it.
Every woman faced with rape has to decide just how far to fight back.
Even women who go limp, not putting up any fight, are not willing partners in their rapes. They're just trying to stay alive.
That's why we say they are rape survivors, not victims. Not a single one did anything wrong.
alp227 (25,961 posts) Sat Jun 21, 2014, 02:06 AM
8. In fact, IF a woman fights back she risks...becoming a victim even worse, by means of prosecution for assault! Good luck trying "self-defense"...it's hard enough proving rape. Sigh.
Uh, question.
Has a woman ever been prosecuted for "assault" trying to stave off a rapist?
Or is this one of those things the primitive wishes it were the case, but isn't?
Tansy_Gold (14,555 posts) Sat Jun 21, 2014, 01:09 AM
2. It's not consent if she was coerced
or threatened.
Consent has to be freely given -- or it's not consent. Period.
dilby (558 posts) Sat Jun 21, 2014, 01:36 AM
5. My rule is this, if a woman says no, I leave.
If you have moved that far where it's a yes or no situation and the answer is no you need to leave at that point. There is no sex in the world that is worth prison time.
demgurl (3,155 posts) Sat Jun 21, 2014, 06:58 AM
9. Right!
Bit then why do some men risk it?
dilby (558 posts) Sat Jun 21, 2014, 11:22 AM
10. No clue why they do.
Probably they think No means just not right now, it's not worth it. If a woman says no 15 times then says yes she still said no and I am pretty sure the law will take that into account. I have gotten up and left women who I was sexually active with when they said no. Some of them thought I was just being a jerk and one even said she wanted to make me try harder, I broke up with her after that. I was raised that no means you leave because there is too much risk, was also raised to never have sex with a woman who has been drinking, if a girl seems slightly intoxicated I wont even give her the time of day.
demgurl (3,155 posts) Sat Jun 21, 2014, 01:05 PM
11. I wish all men were like you.
I have a close male friend and we know some people who like rape role play. Some of them have been rape victims and feel a cathartic release when they do such role playing. My friend will not go anywhere near that type of thing even if he is single and looking.
When a girl says she wants you to try harder she is saying she is broken and you never play with anyone who is broken.
You are correct in that when a woman says no 15 times, and then says yes, it really is not a yes. If a woman must be coerced in any way then it is never a yes.
I like your rule about being intoxicated. These days I would never want to have sex with someone even if I was "just buzzed". I always like to be in control and know what is going on.
^^^actually, the dumbgirl primitive wishes all men were like franksolich; gallant, courtly, considerate of the feelings of the women.
MineralMan (64,643 posts) Sat Jun 21, 2014, 01:09 PM
12. Consent must be conscious and enthusiastic.
If those two factors aren't there, there is no consent.
"OK, whatever" or "I give up" are not consent. Those are surrender, and surrender is never consent.
