Can we talk about K-12 education?

[Splashdown]

Kinda goes against that whole "pursuit of happiness" promise, doesn't it? If we don't have freedom to fail, we don't have freedom.

[b-ONE-b]

I'm going to stick by my opinion.

Identify the students who not only have an aptitude for learning but those who like the learning experience.

Let me use my son as an example. From day one he was on the College fast-track. We read with him from a young age, he was encouraged to read as much as he wanted. He was an advanced reader in every grade level.

From first grade we followed along closely with the school and teacher, always knowing the class curriculum and activities. We attended open houses and helped daily with homework. I was honestly of the opinion that a child was a piece of clay waiting to be turned into a sculpture or a dinner plate.

20 years later... it didn't work that way. He worked against us at every possible turn NOT to be interested in school lol. He couldn't stand it. No matter the reward OR the punishment he just couldn't perform. So we spotted his natural aptitude to take things apart and observe how things work. After high school he went into the Air Force and now has a great start to a career in Munitions.

So yeah... identify strengths and weaknesses of kids early and suit their education to their strengths.

[EagleKeeper]

I'm going to stick by my opinion.

Identify the students who not only have an aptitude for learning but those who like the learning experience.

Let me use my son as an example. From day one he was on the College fast-track. We read with him from a young age, he was encouraged to read as much as he wanted. He was an advanced reader in every grade level.

From first grade we followed along closely with the school and teacher, always knowing the class curriculum and activities. We attended open houses and helped daily with homework. I was honestly of the opinion that a child was a piece of clay waiting to be turned into a sculpture or a dinner plate.

20 years later... it didn't work that way. He worked against us at every possible turn NOT to be interested in school lol. He couldn't stand it. No matter the reward OR the punishment he just couldn't perform. So we spotted his natural aptitude to take things apart and observe how things work. After high school he went into the Air Force and now has a great start to a career in Munitions.

So yeah... identify strengths and weaknesses of kids early and suit their education to their strengths.

I don't know if you noticed this but it was you and your son that made this choice, not the state or the school.

[Big Dog]

Kinda goes against that whole "pursuit of happiness" promise, doesn't it? If we don't have freedom to fail, we don't have freedom.

 

[Big Dog]

What you're really saying is...

I'm going to stick by my opinion.

The State should identify the students who not only have an aptitude for learning but those who like the learning experience.

(snip)

So yeah... The State should identify strengths and weaknesses of kids early and suit their education to their strengths.

Do you trust the State to determine your child's education, and by extension, the path of his life?

I think I have a copy of Brave New World lying around somewhere...

Hey, I have a crazy idea. Let's keep the decisions on which education track a kid follows, with the parents and the student!

[Big Dog]

I don't know if you noticed this but it was you and your son that made this choice, not the state or the school.

What he said.

[b-ONE-b]

I don't know if you noticed this but it was you and your son that made this choice, not the state or the school.

 

All I'm saying is... a certain group of kids have little need for an "in-depth" Biology class. They can learn the basics in a 100+ seat lecture hall from a multi-media source. The students who enjoy and are proficient in BIOLOGY can be in a specialized class and with the money saved maybe they can buy an electron scanning microscope or something. Kids can move back and forth at any time depending on their interest level or performance.

[Big Dog]

All I'm saying is... a certain group of kids have little need for an "in-depth" Biology class. They can learn the basics in a 100+ seat lecture hall from a multi-media source. The students who enjoy and are proficient in BIOLOGY can be in a specialized class and with the money saved maybe they can buy an electron scanning microscope or something. Kids can move back and forth at any time depending on their interest level or performance.

Think this through.

If the student is routed to the "shallow end" biology classes for two or three years, how can he take the "in depth" classes the last one or two years? The school would have to offer a remedial biology class at each level so the students who did will at Shallow End Biology could learn the additional information to move up to Deep End Biology.

It would be the same with math, English, History, etc.

But you didn't answer the question: Do you support the State choosing which student receives a complete high school education, and which student gets half a loaf?

[NHSparky]

What you're really saying is...

Do you trust the State to determine your child's education, and by extension, the path of his life?

I think I have a copy of Brave New World lying around somewhere...

Hey, I have a crazy idea. Let's keep the decisions on which education track a kid follows, with the parents and the student!

Problem is, "the State" has now lowered the choices kids have to one--college.  That way, we get a bunch of "yutes" who end up with a useless degree and a six-figure loan debt, which creates an entire generation who are slaves to "the State."

Ain't it wonderful?

[formerlurker]

I'm going to stick by my opinion.

Identify the students who not only have an aptitude for learning but those who like the learning experience.

Uh, just who is responsible for the "identify" part - the government?   

How truly socialist of you. 

[formerlurker]

Problem is, "the State" has now lowered the choices kids have to one--college.  That way, we get a bunch of "yutes" who end up with a useless degree and a six-figure loan debt, which creates an entire generation who are slaves to "the State."

Ain't it wonderful?

Yes and no.   If you are referring to vocational high schools, then yes.   They moved away from vocational curriculum and have been hard pushing academics for a decade or so now.   That would be due to NCLB (which has it's credits, this isn't one of them).    

To fix it - say hell no to Common Core.   Open more vocational schools (with lottery system of enrollment and not the current admissions process where they get to cherry pick the academic students).  More local funding priorities for arts and music (which are pretty much decimated nationwide as they are viewed as non-essential learning).   Expand on STEAM curriculum, heavily.  

Public employee unions have completed destroyed public education - there is just no getting around that.   Every fantastic idea one can dream up will get shot down immediately because of the unbelievable constraints placed on change by unions.    

This will only change with local legislation (state level) making it so.   You see some states pushing back hard on Common Core and I applaud them.  These states are fighting for the future of their children - God bless them for recognizing the crisis we are all in.  

[formerlurker]

Kinda goes against that whole "pursuit of happiness" promise, doesn't it? If we don't have freedom to fail, we don't have freedom.

Brilliantly stated.  H5.

[formerlurker]

All I'm saying is... a certain group of kids have little need for an "in-depth" Biology class. They can learn the basics in a 100+ seat lecture hall from a multi-media source. The students who enjoy and are proficient in BIOLOGY can be in a specialized class and with the money saved maybe they can buy an electron scanning microscope or something. Kids can move back and forth at any time depending on their interest level or performance.

This is in place now, you have general Biology and AP Biology offerings in most high schools.   

Education, by the way, is a life long journey.   It's not just a K-12 thing.

[formerlurker]

Problem is, "the State" has now lowered the choices kids have to one--college.  That way, we get a bunch of "yutes" who end up with a useless degree and a six-figure loan debt, which creates an entire generation who are slaves to "the State."

Ain't it wonderful?

Public education isn't filling out college applications.  That would be the students, with heavy parental influence.   

Public education's curriculum goal is college ready.   Whether they choose to go to college?  that is for junior to decide.   

[NHSparky]

Public education isn't filling out college applications.  That would be the students, with heavy parental influence.   

Public education's curriculum goal is college ready.   Whether they choose to go to college?  that is for junior to decide.   

There's a lot more to it than just parental influence--that's ALL the schools have been pushing for 30-plus years, when I was in HS.  I don't know how many times as a recruiter I had counselors and administrators refuse to let me in, saying that 98 percent of their kids went to college and I was wasting my time.

Of course, none of them ever said how many of those kids were still in college at the end of their freshman year, or how many of them had to take remedial coursework just to get up to speed.

Frankly, public education's goal should be not "college ready" but "real world ready", be that going to college, vo-tech, or straight to work.  THEN you'll see parents and students given a true choice and not some piss-poor one-size fits all system.

YMMV.

[formerlurker]

There's a lot more to it than just parental influence--that's ALL the schools have been pushing for 30-plus years, when I was in HS.  I don't know how many times as a recruiter I had counselors and administrators refuse to let me in, saying that 98 percent of their kids went to college and I was wasting my time.

Of course, none of them ever said how many of those kids were still in college at the end of their freshman year, or how many of them had to take remedial coursework just to get up to speed.

Frankly, public education's goal should be not "college ready" but "real world ready", be that going to college, vo-tech, or straight to work.  THEN you'll see parents and students given a true choice and not some piss-poor one-size fits all system.

YMMV.

STEAM is more about the world ready theme.   College ready simply means you can read to learn and do math.    Really isn't much more of an expectation than that.

[NHSparky]

College ready simply means you can read to learn and do math. 

And judging by the number of freshmen who are required to take remedial math and/or English, our public schools suck at that too.

[formerlurker]

And judging by the number of freshmen who are required to take remedial math and/or English, our public schools suck at that too.

Yes, yes they do.  THANK YOU PUBLIC EMPLOYEE UNIONS!!!

[Dori]

And judging by the number of freshmen who are required to take remedial math and/or English, our public schools suck at that too.

Almost a third of this year's high school graduates who took the ACT tests are not prepared for college-level writing, biology, algebra or social science classes, according to data the testing company released Wednesday.

The company's annual report also found a gap between students' interests now and projected job opportunities when they graduate, adding to the dire outlook for the class of 2013. "The readiness of students leaves a lot to be desired," said Jon Erickson, president of the Iowa-based company's education division.

The ACT reported that 31 percent of all high school graduates tested were not ready for any college coursework requiring English, science, math or reading skills. The other 69 percent of test takers met at least one of the four subject-area standards. Just a quarter of this year's high school graduates cleared the bar in all four subjects, demonstrating the skills they'll need for college or a career, according to company data.

***
The numbers are even worse for black high school graduates: Only 5 percent were deemed fully ready for life after high school. The report's findings suggest that many students will struggle when they arrive on campus or they'll be forced to take remedial courses — often without earning credits — to catch their peers.

The data reveal a downturn in overall student scores since 2009. Company officials attribute the slide to updated standards and more students taking the exams — including many with no intention of attending two- or four-year colleges. -

See more at: http://cnsnews.com/news/article/act-third-high-school-grads-not-college-ready#sthash.Nthfc3Q1.dpuf

[Splashdown]

And judging by the number of freshmen who are required to take remedial math and/or English, our public schools suck at that too.

There's the problem.

Trust me when I say it's not the teachers. I know plenty of great in-the-trenches public school teachers. They HATE the bureaucracy. They LIVE FOR May and June, when they can teach students, not teach to the "test," whatever the hell test it is. The public school system has so hogtied the teachers, that they can't do what they actually trained to do, teach your kids. Teacher turnover during the first three years is horrendous.

The public school system sucks. Of course, just about every teacher keeps voting Democrat, for some damn reason, so I guess they're part of the problem, as well.

[Splashdown]

All I'm saying is... a certain group of kids have little need for an "in-depth" Biology class. They can learn the basics in a 100+ seat lecture hall from a multi-media source. The students who enjoy and are proficient in BIOLOGY can be in a specialized class and with the money saved maybe they can buy an electron scanning microscope or something. Kids can move back and forth at any time depending on their interest level or performance.

Who makes that call? Are YOU qualified to tell MY kids what they can or can't take in school? Can you explain the size/makeup of this "certain group"? Why do you want to give bureaucracies MORE power?

[Purple Sage]