http://www.democraticunderground.com/11143816Oh my.
You know, I recall one time seeing a picture of this prominent primitive feminist, but then just went on by, thinking erroneously, "oh, it's just another picture of nadin."
It's a good thing the primitive
femmes don't read the men's forum on Skins's island.
Major Nikon (6,044 posts) Mon Sep 17, 2012, 11:33 PM
Did Dworkin completely lose her mind prior to its end?
In 2000, Dworkin writes an article for The Guardian about an alleged rape she experienced in 1999.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2000/jun/02/society
Evidently The Guardian had their doubts about the account once a bit more was learned about it and they wrote a pretty scathing response.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2000/jun/08/society
Her own husband evidently didn't believe her.
Salon writes a pretty interesting article on the subject. Here's a couple of notable passages:
“I could easily believe she had a black-out, and nasty injuries, from an unexpected dose of alcohol and sunburn,†Bright said. “I would rather have sympathy for that version of events than to believe she is maliciously making the whole thing up.†Bright thinks the truth is probably simpler than that — and sadder: “By the time you finish reading , you know she has finally completely lost her mind.â€
Michael Lamport Commons, a researcher with Harvard Medical School’s Program in Psychiatry and Law, also sounds a note of caution: “Lying is a concept of free will,†he told me. People have to know that they are telling untruths in order to be justifiably called liars. He’s not sure that is the case with Dworkin: “While rare, people have dreams of being raped, which appear real to them … Many character disorders, including borderline personality, involve ‘lying’ and not knowing one lies.†Dworkin’s bleak personal history also raises the specter of post-traumatic stress disorder, with its all-too-common dissociative fugues and fragmented flashbacks to earlier scenes of violence.
http://www.salon.com/2000/09/20/dworkin/
Warren DeMontague (39,531 posts) Tue Sep 18, 2012, 03:48 AM
1. I'm not sure how in touch she was with reality throughout most of her adult life, given her writing
that said, it seems pretty clear she became increasingly disassociated with it near the end, to the point where many of her erstwhile "allies" were openly questioning her credibility and suggesting she needed some sort of psychiatric help.
Tormented and perpetually pursued by invisible monsters, demons and spooky conspiracies- I think it's fairly safe to say she quite possibly could have benefited from anti-psychotic meds. Sad.
Major Nikon (6,044 posts) Tue Sep 18, 2012, 09:56 AM
3. Scapegoating certainly is a symptom of an unhealthy mind
I just find it interesting how an entire movement could coalesce around someone who could be described as a fringe nut at best. I suppose that when someone is telling you what you want to hear and that you don't have to take responsibility for your own failures, you can overlook minor flaws like increasing psychosis in your intellectual leader. It's not as if this was the first time something like this has happened, I suppose.
4th law of robotics (4,963 posts) Tue Sep 18, 2012, 10:02 AM
5. People like confidence in leaders
it makes them appear as if they know what they're doing even when they clearly don't.
So a confident individual that never flinches in their convictions will often attract a following.
And crazy people are often entirely confident in everything they say.
Major Nikon (6,044 posts) Tue Sep 18, 2012, 12:42 PM
15. There are other examples
Jim Jones and David Koresh come to mind.
Dworkin actually floated the idea of a feminist separatist colony with guns and everything. I suspect she got the idea from Solanas or someone else as it really wasn't an original idea. I'm surprised it didn't find more traction.
hifiguy (10,733 posts) Tue Sep 18, 2012, 12:39 PM
14. She was a disassociative or schizoid personality.
Totally out of touch fwith reality for whatever reasons. Your second paragraph is spot on.
4th law of robotics (4,963 posts) Tue Sep 18, 2012, 09:46 AM
2. The false rape story was just brilliant satire
and you're too stupid/sexist to get it. Just going by the usual defenses offered for these sort of antics . . .
I did not realize she was married. I couldn't imagine being married to a woman who believed all sex was rape. That must have been a cold relationship.
/apparently after the "incident" she went “. . .down the checklist: no short skirt; it was daylight; I didn’t drink a lot even though it was alcohol and I rarely drink, but so what? It could have been Wild Turkey or coffee. I didn’t drink with a man, I sat alone and read a book, I didn’t go somewhere I shouldn’t have been, wherever that might be when you are 52, I didn’t flirt, I didn’t want it to happen. I wasn’t hungry for a good, hard **** that would leave me pummelled with pain inside.â€
//Sounds like victim-blaming.
Bonobo (17,960 posts) Tue Sep 18, 2012, 09:59 AM
4. They probably just had sex "as women do".
Major Nikon (6,044 posts) Tue Sep 18, 2012, 10:04 AM
6. If you read through the Salon article you can find other hypothesis
Apparently some people thought she may have purposely fabricated an unbelievable story so that the media could lambast her and the feminist community could point their finger at another instance of nobody believing a rape victim.
4th law of robotics (4,963 posts) Tue Sep 18, 2012, 10:21 AM
7. Perhaps
But is not believing a likely fabricated story such a bad thing?
I wish people had been a bit more skeptical when the Duke Lacrosse "rape" case first came to everyone's attention.
/and if she did that then isn't she participating in making actual rape-victims less believable? She is helping to create a problem she claims to fight against.
Major Nikon (6,044 posts) Tue Sep 18, 2012, 10:34 AM
8. That's pretty much the story of her life
Dworkin was always counterproductive to the feminist movement. Betty Friedan warned against it very early on and her prediction proved to be very true. Feminists still to this day aren't able to enjoy the political influence they had pre-Dworkin. She almost single handedly divided and conquered feminism, all in the name of feminism. Her proselytes still don't accept this to this day and probably never will.
4th law of robotics (4,963 posts) Tue Sep 18, 2012, 10:37 AM
9. When they do realize what she did
do you suppose they will claim she was an agent of the patriarchy? Driven by male oppression to destroy the one organization that could save women because she had succumbed to Stockholm syndrome?
I'm sure you could squeeze a few dissertations out of that.
Sen. Walter Sobchak (5,364 posts) Wed Sep 19, 2012, 06:12 PM
17. Her "husband" Stoltenberg is an interesting character in his own right.
and just as crazy as she was. The life of a homosexual misandrist was probably pretty lonely.
Warren DeMontague (39,531 posts) Wed Sep 19, 2012, 06:45 PM
19. No, she made it very clear that they didnt "do it"
Lest anyone think she didn't practice what she preached.
4th law of robotics (4,963 posts) Thu Sep 20, 2012, 10:18 AM
22. That is so very sad
Poor guy went through his whole life filled with hatred and not just that but hatred of his own gender.
What a horrible way to live.
It's too bad these people don't get the intervention and help they need. Instead they're encouraged to spiral further and further out of control.
caseymoz (4,183 posts) Wed Sep 19, 2012, 02:49 AM
16. There's also the delusional liar.
That is, a person who has delusions, and then will deliberately lie to get other people to believe them. It combines a serious mental illness like paranoid schizophrenia with an unethical personality, or personality disorder. I think these sorts of people can be pretty dangerous. Examples would be L. Ron Hubbard, nadinbrzezinski, David Koresh and Jim Jones.
Why can't a psychopath also be a psychotic?
lumberjack_jeff (22,377 posts) Wed Sep 19, 2012, 06:51 PM
20. "Why can't a psychopath also be a psychotic?"
Because ordinarily one would need a fairly keen sense of reality - or at least other people's perceptions - to successfully manipulate them into fulfilling your desires.
... unless the people you are manipulating are inclined to share your delusion.
