http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x2385188For the last several days there have been at least a half a dozen threads regarding a blog by Naomi Wolf asserting that there is a grand conspiracy to shut down the vermin camps and on most of those it is shown to be nonsense.
It still doesn`t stop DUmbasses in normal primitive form to keep starting new ones as if they are the first to discover the tripe.
Luminous Animal attempts to save them from their own idiocy.
Luminous Animal (1000+ posts) Sat Nov-26-11 08:37 PM
Original message
Naomi Wolf's fact free blog post.
Debunked.
See Pirate Smile's OP in General Discussion Presidency...
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...
How Bullshit Magically Turns Into Fact
http://www.drumsnwhistles.com/2011/11/25/how-bullshit-m... /
by Karoli on November 25, 2011
I used to write these stories debunking the right wing only, and usually in the context of Fox News. But lately, it seems as though the entire angry political blogosphere, whether right, left or libertarian, seems to need to magically transform bullshit into fact. I’m going to give you two examples of how this works so you can actually figure out for yourself why it’s important to keep your critical thinking cap on.
Naomi Wolf wrote a nonsensical piece today that’s being spammed all over Twitter. It asserts that there is a deliberate plot afoot via collusion by the United States Congress, the Department of Homeland Security and our oligarchical overlords to undermine the very populist, leaderless Occupy Wall Street movement. One of her key pieces of evidence is an unsupported and unverified report that 18 mayors coordinated their crackdowns with the Department of Homeland Security. There’s only one problem with that: It’s nothing more than innuendo. Here, let me show you.
http://www.angryblacklady.com/2011/11/25/ows-the-shocki... /
#OWS: The Shocking Truth about Naomi Wolf’s Journalistic Hackery
Rumormongering at its most despicable.
ABL 11/25/11
Two weeks ago, a rumor circulated that the Department of Homeland Security was “behind†the crackdown at Zuccotti Park. The rumor originated with Michael Moore who got it from a thinly-sourced article in Examiner.com. I wrote about it here and here.
The author of the Examiner.com article, Rick Ellis, published multiple updates to his thinly-sourced post, and promised that he would provide more information once he had it. That was on November 15. No further information has been provided.
I figured it had been settled. As Joshua Holland, writing for Alternet noted, “There’s a lot of speculation, but very little substance to the tale of the “nationwide†crackdown on the Occupy movement. â€
So I figured this rumor would be put to bed. I was wrong.
Today — ten days after the rumor had been debunked — Naomi Wolf saw fit to write an article so fraught with hyperbole — “what happened this week is the first battle in a civil war†— and so utterly fact-free that its publication should hang like an albatross around Naomi Wolf’s neck for the rest of her career. It is Judith Miller-style hackery, and it is shameless.
http://www.alternet.org/story/153222/naomi_wolf%E2%80%9...
Naomi Wolf’s ‘Shocking Truth’ About the ‘Occupy Crackdowns’ Offers Anything but the Truth
Joshua Holland 11/26/11
But missing here is any suggestion that cities are being compelled to crack down on their Occupations in any way – mayors of all of the municipalities that evicted camps in recent weeks had made it very clear that they were going to do so. Oakland Mayor Jean Quan held three press conferences urging people to leave Frank Ogawa Plaza and promising that they would be removed by force if they didn’t comply. Local officials have an agenda, but it is not a hidden agenda, and thus not a particularly shocking story.
I don’t find it in the least bit surprising that law enforcement officials communicate with each other, and such communication is in no way an assault on local communities’ autonomy. Every day professionals dealing with similar issues get on conference calls, send messages to list-servs or otherwise talk shop – it’s just part of our “interconnected world.â€
Having established a baseline of reality, let’s turn to Wolf’s claims.
A misguided effort when it goes against the desire to feel oppressed.
Bonobo (1000+ posts) Sat Nov-26-11 08:42 PM
Response to Original message
1. Are you saying that there was no "self-coordination" even?
Is it your contention that there was no coordination of the timing of the crackdowns?
uminous Animal (1000+ posts) Sat Nov-26-11 08:50 PM
Response to Reply #1
7. Certainly no evidence presented that there was. It is no secret that the mayors of each
city that have cleared the encampments were determined to do so.
Bonobo (1000+ posts) Sat Nov-26-11 08:54 PM
Response to Reply #7
9. That's how it is done. Plausible deniability. All that is necessary is to send the signal
from the top that they will not complain if there is a crackdown.
Then, since the lines of communication is already open between the mayors in their monthly meetings, all they have to do is say "Let's get her done." and it is a fait accompli.
Is that collusion? I don't know. But what I DO know is that, like any institution, the climate or nature of the institution is determined by the behavior of those at the top through either that action or their tacit agreement communicated by inaction (silence),
sabrina 1 makes a last minute bid for DOTY.
sabrina 1 (1000+ posts) Sat Nov-26-11 08:56 PM
Response to Reply #9
12. And if it's normal for the Mayors to regularly consult with this
shadowy organization, an International one at that, PERF, that alone should be a cause for concern. But hey, it's our team in office right now, so let's ignore the disturbing signs we railed against when the other team was responsible.
Tx4obama (1000+ posts) Sat Nov-26-11 09:01 PM
Response to Reply #12
17. Show evidence that PERF was on the conference call.
It was only the mayors that were on one of their normally scheduled conference calls.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...
p.s. Everyone can have their own opinion, but not their own facts. FACTS are FACTS.
We don`t need no stinking FACTS.
Bonobo (1000+ posts) Sat Nov-26-11 09:08 PM
Response to Reply #17
22. Yes but absence of evidence is NOT the same as evidence of absence.
So you equally cannot claim that PERF was NOT on the conference call since you have no fact to prove that contention.
Just saying. Y'know?
God help us.
sabrina 1 (1000+ posts) Sat Nov-26-11 09:13 PM
Response to Reply #17
24. Show evidence that the DHS was not in any way involved
in those brutal attacks on the American people?
PERF has admitted their involvement in advising 40 police depts on how to handle OWS. Doesn't that disturb you at all as a Progressive? Who are these people working for? And since they advised the Police Depts, are you saying the Police do not communicate with the Mayors to whom they answer?
And why is there no investigation into the crimes committed against the American people during those attacks?
That would answer all questions about who was or was not responsible for the brutality against the people by their own police depts? Are you in agreement with these Bush policies then?
sabrina 1 (1000+ posts) Sat Nov-26-11 08:50 PM
Response to Reply #4
8. Yes, yes, we know, it was all just a coincidence that all these
Edited on Sat Nov-26-11 08:51 PM by sabrina 1
brutal attacks on American citizens were happening across the country at the same time, using the same tactics, the same 'weopons' etc. So no need for an investigation. Despite the crimes that were committed against innocent people, AND the press.
I want an investigation. I want to know why all these Mayors were conferring with an International group called PERF which DOES have ties to the DHS. And I want to know what role these unconstitutional Fusion Centers are playing in all of this.
Maybe you would prefer that now that Bush is gone, we all go back to sleep and feel confident that the 'government would never lie' to us.
But I would not.
Btw, do the mayors consult with PERF every month?
sabrina 1 (1000+ posts) Sat Nov-26-11 09:17 PM
Response to Reply #13
27. All departments have tanks and sound cannons? Since when?
Since when did it become acceptable for civilian police to be armed as if they were military? We have a military. Who made this legal? When? And why is it acceptable that our civilian police, even one Dept is in position of military weapons?
You seem very accepting of these developments which, when Bush was in power, progressives were outraged over. Why are progressives now so willing to give up their rights??
I do NOT know, nor do you, how many Police Depts are armed this way. We know some are NOW, because of these attacks on the people.
sabrina 1 (1000+ posts) Sat Nov-26-11 09:06 PM
Response to Reply #15
20. No, it was never confirmed. That is different from 'bunk'
especially since we now have the information about PERF which definitely IS tied to the DHS. And we know the NYPD is deeply tied to the CIA, the FBI and the DHS. And we know how many Fusion centers there are around the country who also are tied to the DHS.
Got anything to prove that the DHS was not involved in any way?
sabrina 1 (1000+ posts) Sat Nov-26-11 09:55 PM
Response to Reply #39
40. The involvement of PERF is verifiable, unless they were lying
They did advise 40 police depts on how to handle OWS. Why? Who is funding them? They are an international organization, why are they advising US civilian police on how to crack down on American citizens exercising their Constitutional Rights?
Let's ignore all the injured, the silencing, literally, of Iraq Veteran Scott Oslen, and focus on a writer who used a questionable source. Way to distract from the serious questions about why no one eg, has even been named in the near killing of peaceful protesters. Sorry, I wonder sometimes about the 'left', how easily distracted they are from the important issues.
Luminous Animal (1000+ posts) Sat Nov-26-11 10:22 PM
Response to Reply #40
54. Sabrina, you have no details of that call.
I won't ignore the violence and I hold each police department responsible for their actions. But I haven't a clue to the contents of that PERF phone call and neither do you.
The important issues are supporting the Occupy movement, supporting its citizen journalists, combating the propaganda that seeks to discredit both, and keeping putting consistent and constant pressure on our local government and police departments to do nothing to undermine the civil rights of the protesters.
Insisting that we rally around truthiness rather than demanding the truth is supremely unimportant.
Wolf is an irresponsible ass about this and we should demand more from her.
Luminous Animal (1000+ posts) Sat Nov-26-11 09:25 PM
Response to Reply #23
30. PERF was not on the Mayor's conference call. So no. They did not advise the mayors.
sabrina 1 (1000+ posts) Sat Nov-26-11 09:44 PM
Response to Reply #30
36. How do you know that? PERF has refused to answer the Guardian
calls regarding their involvement? Why?
SidDithers (1000+ posts) Sat Nov-26-11 10:18 PM
Response to Original message
53. K&R...
You're presenting facts to those with no interest in the truth, but A+ for effort.
Sid
Of course nads has to campaign as well.
nadinbrzezinski (1000+ posts) Sat Nov-26-11 09:36 PM
Response to Reply #7
33. So the call that Mayor Quan told the BBC about
never happened... good to know.
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Luminous Animal (1000+ posts) Sat Nov-26-11 09:44 PM
Response to Reply #33
35. I never claimed the call did not happen. Please restrict your rebuttals to my actual words not the
Edited on Sat Nov-26-11 09:44 PM by Luminous Animal
fantasy in your head.
Were you on that call? Do you know for a FACT that the purpose was to coordinate a crackdown? Because that is what is being asserted here as SHOCKING TRUTH. You'd think a historian would insist on even a glimmer of evidence for a accusation to be branded as TRUTH.
A quite frankly, it wouldn't surprise me if the mayors had discussed the timing of the raids on the camps. But please tell me, that would be shocking how?
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nadinbrzezinski (1000+ posts) Sat Nov-26-11 09:45 PM
Response to Reply #35
37. Unless somebody foia's that call
there is no way you or I can know the contents of that call.
I will leave you to your conclussions now.
By the way, at the very least there is FBI infiltration of OWS, and if you believe otherwise, I could offer you a LONG history going back to the Turner Raids.
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Luminous Animal (1000+ posts) Sat Nov-26-11 10:02 PM
Response to Reply #37
47. Yes. You or I AND Wolf cannot know the contents of that call. And lacking that evidence
is why Wolf's assertion that she is reporting the "TRUTH" is woefully ignorant and dangerous.
And please keep your offer of lecturing me on U.S. activist history to yourself. I've an 40 foot long 8 foot high bookshelf of people's movements history.
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nadinbrzezinski (1000+ posts) Sat Nov-26-11 10:04 PM
Response to Reply #47
49. Well then, in that case
you should know why this is not that far fetched, especially given the SILENCE from those in power ON BOTH sides of the aisle.
I will leave you to your conclussions now.
Suffice it to say... life is indeed at times stranger than fiction.
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Luminous Animal (1000+ posts) Sat Nov-26-11 10:08 PM
Response to Reply #49
50. I would never be so ignorant or irresponsible to present as TRUTH factless based
conclusions. Which is what Wolf (a woman with a global audience) did. And the fact that she did this is precisely my complaint.
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nadinbrzezinski (1000+ posts) Sat Nov-26-11 10:16 PM
Response to Reply #50
52. Ok then
I suspect there is some to this...due to a LONG history you are so well versed on. I also suspect we will not truly KNOW how much until dust settles and we have the mandatory hearing like we did in '76.
Just remember, CONTRIELPRO was the stuff of rumors and innuendo...well right until it came out in them hearings. Perhaps she's not correct, perhaps she is...but if this quaks like a duck, walks like one...well it is not a kitty. It really does not matter how much cat nip you bring out.
Too many coincidences, but as I said you're well versed in that sordid history.
Oh and early cracks into this...I do not expect to read in our wonderful and free press. Suffice it to say it s not wonderful or free.It has not been for at least a generation.
So once the dust settles perhaps (most likely) the tinfoil will be replaced by less than pleasant facts.
Oh and it has nothing to do with who is in the WH by the way. This is quite party independent in fact.
Have a good day.
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Luminous Animal (1000+ posts) Sat Nov-26-11 10:24 PM
Response to Reply #52
55. Perhaps Wolf is an operative employed to keep us distracted by conspiracies...
See how that works?
That is why it is better to build a movement on facts and not insinuation.
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nadinbrzezinski (1000+ posts) Sat Nov-26-11 10:29 PM
Response to Reply #55
56. And perhaps not
See how that works?
Until the dust settles you truly will not know. Given a few events in recent history, like starting with the USPA, I suspect it will be far worst than that article even hints at...and I hope I am wrong.
JNelson6563 (1000+ posts) Sun Nov-27-11 07:03 AM
Response to Original message
69. Another DU golden calf, full of shit?
Oh dear!
Julie
It is your home,wallow in it.
Honest to God,trying to follow those threads with that insane posting format makes ones head hurt.
It has to have been created knowing full well it could only make sense to a lunatic.
Why on Earth not a damn one of them will ever quote what they are responding to if not the OP will forever be a mystery to me,it is literally a small snapshot into the workings of a demented mind.
