California Town Government in Full Assault on First Amendment

[diesel driver]

4,700-square-foot home on a parcel that also has a corral, barn, pool and huge back lawn...on 1/2 an acre??  Unless the "barn" is a 10x20 shed, the corral is the size of a decent dog kennel, and the pool is a Walmart special, there is no way it's a 1/2 acre lot. 

1 acre is 43,560 sq. ft.  or a little under 209' X 209'.  Not big at all.

I've got almost 4, which isn't big, until you have to mow it!   

[ChuckJ]

Based on my calculation the lot appears to be about an acre. It's not unusual in subdivisions for corner lots and odd shaped lots such as those on curves and culdesacs to be larger than the other lots. The problem is that the fact that it is one of the larger lots really doesn't matter because the majority of the extra area is in the rear.

They can get about 6 cars on the driveway. Maybe 9 if they are short compact cars. They could possible get as many as 8 on the driveway IF they were to park them close enough together that the doors wouldn't open.

[JohnnyReb]

Based on my calculation the lot appears to be about an acre. It's not unusual in subdivisions for corner lots and odd shaped lots such as those on curves and culdesacs to be larger than the other lots. The problem is that the fact that it is one of the larger lots really doesn't matter because the majority of the extra area is in the rear.

They can get about 6 cars on the driveway. Maybe 9 if they are short compact cars. They could possible get as many as 8 on the driveway IF they were to park them close enough together that the doors wouldn't open.

Us rednecks want to know, is there room for a couple on blocks?

[Erasmus]

Godless bastards.

[NHSparky]

Godless bastards.

Godless or piety has nothing to do with it.  Zoning laws exist for a reason.  Sorry, but if 50 people show up at my next door neighbor's house every Sunday, and I don't care HOW quiet they are, they're gonna make noise, and frankly, it's a PITA to deal with on a Sunday morning.

Nobody's saying they're not allowed to worship, just not THAT many people in a relatively small residential area not meant to regularly deal with those kinds of crowds.

Again, if they've got enough money to pay a $1.5 mil mortgage, they can rent a meeting hall or other suitable facility where the neighbors won't be disturbed.  It goes both ways.

[Erasmus]

Godless or piety has nothing to do with it.  Zoning laws exist for a reason.  Sorry, but if 50 people show up at my next door neighbor's house every Sunday, and I don't care HOW quiet they are, they're gonna make noise, and frankly, it's a PITA to deal with on a Sunday morning.

Nobody's saying they're not allowed to worship, just not THAT many people in a relatively small residential area not meant to regularly deal with those kinds of crowds.

Again, if they've got enough money to pay a $1.5 mil mortgage, they can rent a meeting hall or other suitable facility where the neighbors won't be disturbed.  It goes both ways.

Valid points.  I still think they're Godless bastards, though.

[ChuckJ]

Us rednecks want to know, is there room for a couple on blocks?

A good redneck can always find room for one on blocks. 

[Rugnuts]

Newsflash...I can park 12 cars in my driveway, and I don't have to move a boat.  So what happens when 50 people show up?

They don't have enough room to properly care for a horse, and you know it.  It's not even a 2 acre lot.

http://www.zillow.com/homes/30162-Branding-Iron-Road,-san-juan-capistrano,-ca_rb/

$1.6 million for what basically is a McMansion.

just looking at it on google earth
its possible they own the acreage (grass field) adjacent to thier house which probably has a different county assessor designation. it appears to have some buildings that look like stables and other outbuildings, a riding arena and even a fenced in pasture.

[NHSparky]

Nope.  Try again.  That is a riding facility, privately owned.  Also a hell of a lot bigger than a couple of acres.

[Rugnuts]

exactly sparky,
you are ranting up above about how these guys cant be "REAL" horse owners in this neighborhood. yet, you tell us that is a privately owned riding facility right next door??

the articles state this has nothing to do about space. there is not one statement that mentions a neighbor's complaint about parking in the street, which is public property. it deals with an ordinace that requires permits for churches (synagogues, mosque etc). these guys are having bible study at their place. there is a difference. tax exemption is a big one. i doubt that mcmansion is tax free. i could have 50 people over on a sunday and while eating say "lord have mercy, these are some good ribs" and "god damn it, the vikings suck this year".  is my house now a mosque? no.



fwiw: their lot is 140' wide and 350' to the pointed back yard
they have a pool, corral and a "barn". they own the property. i believe in property rights. they can do whatever the **** they want on their land so long as its legal. if they (the city) have to twist an ordinance to make it "illegal" they're despicable.

[NHSparky]

My whole point is, it's a RESIDENTIAL neighborhood.  Zoned and everything.  What part of that has you so wrapped around the axle?

And you're right--they can do whatever they want on THEIR land, so long as it doesn't interfere with other property owners.  When they DO affect others around them, their "rights" stop.  Kinda like the whole, "your freedom to swing your fist ends where my nose begins" bit.

Sometimes, freedom means NOT doing something.  The fact that they ARE making noise and creating a hassle in what is really pretty close quarters is the issue here, not that they're having bible study on Sundays. 

Oh, and FWIW, would you have a problem if 50 people regularly showed up at the house next door to you?

[vesta111]

My whole point is, it's a RESIDENTIAL neighborhood.  Zoned and everything.  What part of that has you so wrapped around the axle?

And you're right--they can do whatever they want on THEIR land, so long as it doesn't interfere with other property owners.  When they DO affect others around them, their "rights" stop.  Kinda like the whole, "your freedom to swing your fist ends where my nose begins" bit.

Sometimes, freedom means NOT doing something.  The fact that they ARE making noise and creating a hassle in what is really pretty close quarters is the issue here, not that they're having bible study on Sundays. 

Oh, and FWIW, would you have a problem if 50 people regularly showed up at the house next door to you?

Sparky these people have to my thinking a HUGE home, To me, if their house was the size of yours or mine then yes, I would wonder where an how they could find seating for 50 people--no one said how long the readings took, an hour or 2 would be enough for most anyone to sit still.

This is their HOME, if they wish to have 50 guests at a time for any reason----- for an hour or two one day a week  that is their business.

 Heck some faiths call each other Sister and Brother, --No zoning laws against weekly family reunions is there ???

[NHSparky]

On a weekly basis, it might be.  Hell, try navigating around my neighborhood during the summer when every other house is doing a yard sale and all the people are parked in the friggin road.  It's not just an inconvenience, it's UNSAFE.

Frankly, the whole issue is with the City Code, in this case, section 9-3.301 of the Capistrano Municipal Code, which prohibits "religious, fraternal or non-profit" organizations in residential neighborhoods without a conditional-use permit.  Money-grubbing?  Maybe, but it might also be about getting access for fire/police were an emergency to occur.

The city has stated that the issue was never about religious freedom, but rather about parking and street access.  I would tend to agree.

If they feel the law is unjust, then work to change it, but of course, America has become such a litiguous nation that we'll sue every time we get butt-hurt.  Evidently, the code enforcement folks thought there was an issue, or else they wouldn't have issued warnings and/or citations.

Sorry folks, but I've got to take the side of the city on this one.  It's not a 1A issue.  Of course, I wish the Fromms all the best and hope they do get the law changed or at least reduced in scope.  2000 people at your house is a bit much, but 20 is certainly reasonable.

[DLR Pyro]

In another first ammendment issue related to this town, the muzzies are all up in arms because a member of the San Juan Capistrano city council named his dog muhammed and are demanding an apology...

Muslim group wants official to apologize for dog Muhammad

oy vey

[NHSparky]

In another first ammendment issue related to this town, the muzzies are all up in arms because a member of the San Juan Capistrano city council named his dog muhammed and are demanding an apology...

Muslim group wants official to apologize for dog Muhammad

oy vey

In the words of Larry the Cable Guy, "That's funny right there, I don't care who you are..."

[rich_t]

My whole point is, it's a RESIDENTIAL neighborhood.  Zoned and everything.  What part of that has you so wrapped around the axle?

And you're right--they can do whatever they want on THEIR land, so long as it doesn't interfere with other property owners.  When they DO affect others around them, their "rights" stop.  Kinda like the whole, "your freedom to swing your fist ends where my nose begins" bit.

Sometimes, freedom means NOT doing something.  The fact that they ARE making noise and creating a hassle in what is really pretty close quarters is the issue here, not that they're having bible study on Sundays. 

Oh, and FWIW, would you have a problem if 50 people regularly showed up at the house next door to you?

As long as they weren't blocking my driveway or making a lot of noise I wouldn't mind.

[Rugnuts]

My whole point is, it's a RESIDENTIAL neighborhood.  Zoned and everything.  What part of that has you so wrapped around the axle?

And you're right--they can do whatever they want on THEIR land, so long as it doesn't interfere with other property owners.  When they DO affect others around them, their "rights" stop.  Kinda like the whole, "your freedom to swing your fist ends where my nose begins" bit.

Sometimes, freedom means NOT doing something.  The fact that they ARE making noise and creating a hassle in what is really pretty close quarters is the issue here, not that they're having bible study on Sundays.  

Oh, and FWIW, would you have a problem if 50 people regularly showed up at the house next door to you?

spark,
not once in these articles is anyone crying about "noise" or "parking". there was obviously a neighbor who reported something to the city, since they admit to be "reactionary".  the city's response was to shut them down using a zoning ordinance requiring permits for church's. In effect by labeling this family and their home a church. If thats not government action you have a problem with dont try to defend the city by bringing in unaffiliated circumstances (this has nothing to do with horses, noise or parking)

your level of acceptable interference is questionable.  where does it say that these guys were chanting Leviticus 2:7-14 at the top of their lungs and the neighbors were "hurt". Remember, you're the one bringing up noise was the problem. i'm willing to bet the city has a disturbing the peace ordinance (all city's pretty much do). So if that was the case, why did the city not use that ordinance.... BECAUSE noise wasn't the complaint. if it truly was about parking, like you say the city is now claiming, dont they have an ordinance for that??? no because its a public street free to use by anyone. By your standards, Can i stand in my yard and hiccup? or does that violate my neighbors right of silence? Remind you, i live in a residential zone.

example to consider: when my wife had her baby shower, 31 women came. at least 20 came in separate vehicles. so lets say there were 25 vehicles. my driveway is not as big as yours. it holds 5 at most. the rest parked on the road, which is public, zoned residential. they setup the party in my garage, and "showered" in there with the overhead doors open. all gossippy and giddy, i can only assume they "made noise".

i know it wasnt against the law, but was that wrong? was it a major rights violation? al sharpton & jesse jackson gonna come march down my street?


to answer your question...
no, my neighbors in fact actually have bible group on sunday evenings in the summer. they sit around a campfire, probably singing kumbuya, no doubt. although they only have around 15 people show up. yesterday one neighbor had some sort of get together for lunch. there were 12 vehicles in the street and 3-4 in his driveway. i was a liitle upset when i wasn't invited. but no, i dont give one rats ass what my neighbors do.

[NHSparky]

no because its a public street free to use by anyone.

Unless access becomes a problem (see above.)

Again, were it a few people gathering, I would be the first one to agree with you.  But you've got to understand something, as hard as it is to admit, that we're probably not getting the whole story.

Personally, I'd be kind of curious to see the crowd on a typical Sunday morning there, just to put the whole issue to rest.

[WARBOUND]

People this countries identity is under assault. The idea that this country is a mixing pot is what is ultimately tearing it apart. If we give the minority the power to control the majority then Democracy is just another Despot.

The Constitution states Majority Rules. Minorities rights. Somehow this crap has been reversed and the Majority in this country doesn't have control or rights.