Author Topic: WHAT WE CAN EXPECT UNDER MARTIAL LAW  (Read 2476 times)

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Offline CG6468

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WHAT WE CAN EXPECT UNDER MARTIAL LAW
« on: June 16, 2011, 04:05:41 PM »
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    People, you know, if it continues, we're going to start to see civil unrest in this country. I hate to say that, but I think it's imminently possible.
    James Carville, Democratic Party consultant and campaign manager, at Fox Business

    Supported by a Supreme Court that has unequivocally demonstrated a willingness to ignore or sign off on egregious tramplings of the Constitution, the stage is set for the U.S. government to evolve into something far more dangerous on the domestic front.
    David Galland, Police State Amerika, at Casey Research

Societal collapse and, as the faux-genteel put it, civil unrest scenarios are sure to include martial law. When the Department of Education places an order for police-style shotguns, when they mount—and botch—armed home invasions for what used to be routine process serving, when even the Railroad Retirement Board and the Small Business Administration are carrying, the citizen can be excused for thinking the entirety of government is this close to going Soviet. But don't look for a declaration of martial law, in the US the term for martial law is state of emergency. A state of emergency was declared during Katrina for instance, by the city of New Orleans and by Louisiana with federal assistance from FEMA. It was, in addition to being de facto martial law, a series of pathetic pratfalls which added to the suffering and death.

A "National State of Emergency" is national martial law plain and simple, other than in name. We were in a national state of emergency from 1939 to 1945 for World War II and from 1950 to 1978 for the Cold War. We are now in a national state of emergency and have been since September 2001. It's administered discreetly and with softened edges, but martial law it is. It's been made largely unobtrusive but forbearance is always at their pleasure, not ours. When the federal government declares a national state of emergency the lead agency is the Department of Homeland Security, under the direction of the Commander In Chief. It's why the TSA can grope you and your kids with impunity, it's why local police have been equipped with combat gear and armored vehicles and fill-in-the-blank search warrants, it's why the armed forces train for urban warfare and nation-building rather than to defeat other armies or repel invasion.

As extensive as the DHS's resources are, one component is notably shy about its presence: the military. Occasionally they've made cameo appearances, in New Orleans for instance, where federal troops conducted door-to-door home invasions to disarm the citizenry, a betrayal of their countrymen and of their oath to defend the Constitution* but not the full-on military occupation favored in movies and doomer novels. The Insurrection Act of 1807 really puts the martial in martial law.

The Insurrection Act remains as written two centuries ago, even after some legal waffling in recent years, and it's a show-stopper. Plainly put, it authorizes the President to deploy federal troops within the United States to put down lawlessness, insurrection or rebellion. Should he do so, the Executive Orders are in place and the military leadership is in place under the name The United States Northern Command. Not incidentally, "Northern" means the northern hemisphere, and for the reason the so-called tinfoil hats say it is. NorthCom is authorized to deploy foreign troops on US soil. The mobilization plan is called the Northern National Security Emergency Preparedness Directorate. It's the White House's "nuclear option." Under this plan, units from the armed forces would be deployed and directed by NorthCom, placing our beloved land under the sort of military regimes seen in occupied Europe during the 1939-1945 war.

Here is what to expect under "worst case scenario" martial law:

Bend over, here it comes
Illinois, south of the gun controllers in Chi town

Offline 5412

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Re: WHAT WE CAN EXPECT UNDER MARTIAL LAW
« Reply #1 on: June 16, 2011, 09:52:39 PM »
Hi,

I know David Galland and he is a fine gentleman.  I also know he is building a home in Argentina for the reasons mentioned in the article, the fears of what is happening in the US are very real.

What I see coming of this is states seceding from the union.  We are seeing push backs in many way.  AZ passed a law saying they can bring home their national guard to protect their homeland if the feel it is necessary.  Utah passed a law that said contracts can legally be settled with gold or silver.  Many states have passed laws reinforcing the rights of the citizens to bear arms, and almost all now have concealed weapons permits available for their citizens.

When the Carolinas find the federal government suing so Boeing cannot move a plant to their state, it is just the tip of the iceberg.  Once states start pushing back, it will find the federal government threatening them by withholding funds etc. trying to coerce them into doing their bidding.  Once the first state says OK, then we will stop sending tax dollars to the federal government, look for the avalance to begin.  Then the federal government is screwed and it could get really ugly.

If all the counties in American that voted red in the last election stopped sending in their tax dollars, who would support the welfare population in the blue counties? 

Let the games begin!

Regards,
5412

Offline Aristotelian

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Re: WHAT WE CAN EXPECT UNDER MARTIAL LAW
« Reply #2 on: June 17, 2011, 05:32:00 AM »
What I see coming of this is states seceding from the union.

I'd be grateful for correction if I'm wrong - but I remember being told that following the War Between the States there was never a legal ruling on the constitutionality of secession. It would be interesting to see how a secession declaration would be treated these days.

Offline SSG Snuggle Bunny

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Re: WHAT WE CAN EXPECT UNDER MARTIAL LAW
« Reply #3 on: June 17, 2011, 06:17:07 AM »
Calm down Francis.

You need a military to impose martial law.

Obama can't even get people on-board for someone as universally mocked and detested as Q'Daffy.
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Offline Thor

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Re: WHAT WE CAN EXPECT UNDER MARTIAL LAW
« Reply #4 on: June 17, 2011, 06:18:51 AM »
I'd be grateful for correction if I'm wrong - but I remember being told that following the War Between the States there was never a legal ruling on the constitutionality of secession. It would be interesting to see how a secession declaration would be treated these days.

It would probably be viewed as some sort of insurrection. All one has to do is read Title 18 of the US Code. The Government has made laws (and had them for a while) against militias, rebellions, insurrection, etc. Push come to shove, I can see bloody battles here in the US. People think Iraq & Afghanistan were bad?? They will pale in comparison to what COULD happen here in the USA.
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Offline SSG Snuggle Bunny

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Re: WHAT WE CAN EXPECT UNDER MARTIAL LAW
« Reply #5 on: June 17, 2011, 07:01:38 AM »
THE SECOND AMERICAN CIVIL WAR

As they continue to lose more state houses, more collective bargaining laws are scaled back, the teachers have to compete more etc etc etc. the would-be warriors of social justice retreated to ever more lurid fantasies that the system is corrupt beyond redemption and 499 other channels can't scream over the top of FAUX noise. They sat muttering in their mother's basement. Then one day one of their members slammed his fist on the table, then wiped off the orange cheese dust before angrily snatching up his backpack before storming out the door.

Not only were the corporatists destroying his life but Jenny down the street wouldn't talk to him anymore; she was more interested in that guy with the job and jobs made you a serf.

Several hours later a small improvised explosive device exploded in the parking garage of an upscale Manhattan office complex injuring a security guard and damaging several vehicles which were covered by ample insurance policies.

A grainy surveillance image of a scraggy-bearded misfit seen leaving the garage flashed across the nation.

He was identified, arrested and his rambling college essays soon made public.

While most of the public will be outraged the talking heads will try to convince us that maybe he had a reason...oh and Sarah Palin is the real danger here because she actually has a voice.

And then the American people turned on what was left of the Left.

--THE END--
According to the Bible, "know" means "yes."

Offline 5412

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Re: WHAT WE CAN EXPECT UNDER MARTIAL LAW
« Reply #6 on: June 17, 2011, 10:35:01 PM »
I'd be grateful for correction if I'm wrong - but I remember being told that following the War Between the States there was never a legal ruling on the constitutionality of secession. It would be interesting to see how a secession declaration would be treated these days.

Hi,

I don't have the answer to the question you ask.  I will say however that I have read some stuff recently that says we could have a civil war without a shot being fired.  That would be even better, just let the producing members of society go somewhere and start over and leave the welfare society to fend for themselves.

regards,
5412

Offline DefiantSix

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Re: WHAT WE CAN EXPECT UNDER MARTIAL LAW
« Reply #7 on: June 17, 2011, 11:00:01 PM »
THE SECOND AMERICAN CIVIL WAR

As they continue to lose more state houses, more collective bargaining laws are scaled back, the teachers have to compete more etc etc etc. the would-be warriors of social justice retreated to ever more lurid fantasies that the system is corrupt beyond redemption and 499 other channels can't scream over the top of FAUX noise. They sat muttering in their mother's basement. Then one day one of their members slammed his fist on the table, then wiped off the orange cheese dust before angrily snatching up his backpack before storming out the door.

Not only were the corporatists destroying his life but Jenny down the street wouldn't talk to him anymore; she was more interested in that guy with the job and jobs made you a serf.

Several hours later a small improvised explosive device exploded in the parking garage of an upscale Manhattan office complex injuring a security guard and damaging several vehicles which were covered by ample insurance policies.

A grainy surveillance image of a scraggy-bearded misfit seen leaving the garage flashed across the nation.

He was identified, arrested and his rambling college essays soon made public.

While most of the public will be outraged the talking heads will try to convince us that maybe he had a reason...oh and Sarah Palin is the real danger here because she actually has a voice.

And then the American people turned on what was left of the Left.

--THE END--

 :lol: :cheers1: Dude; you really have to try this!!  While I was reading your post, Twisted Sister was pounding out We're Not Gonna Take It on my stereo.  My wife's looking at me like a crazy man, wondering what the hell I could possibly be doing over here that's so damned funny, as to justify the gales of laughter. :rotf: :lmao:

Oh, and :hi5:
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Offline DumbAss Tanker

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Re: WHAT WE CAN EXPECT UNDER MARTIAL LAW
« Reply #8 on: June 19, 2011, 02:29:58 PM »
Calm down Francis.

You need a military to impose martial law.

Obama can't even get people on-board for someone as universally mocked and detested as Q'Daffy.

Judging from the posts I'm catching up with after a week-plus of primitive camping, it appears several members need their meds adjusted.
Go and tell the Spartans, O traveler passing by
That here, obedient to their law, we lie.

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Offline 5412

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Re: WHAT WE CAN EXPECT UNDER MARTIAL LAW
« Reply #9 on: June 20, 2011, 03:27:48 PM »
Judging from the posts I'm catching up with after a week-plus of primitive camping, it appears several members need their meds adjusted.

Hi Tanker,

You have educated me a few times before and here might be another chance.  While the president can declare martial law, indeed without the military it would be most difficult for him to enforce it.....which likely would lead to chaos.

I have a good friend who is a retired federal marshall, among other things....etc.  He and I were discussing what would happen if the government tried to illegally take away our arms.  I indicated that I would be very surprised if the Florida National Guard would fire on their own; particularly when they thought the government was doing something unconstitutional.  His response to me is that they were one step ahead of me.  The feds already have plans in place to make sure if the guard is called up due to marshall law, they will be moved around so they are not in their home state.

When we had that conversation was just before AZ passed a law that said they have a right to bring their guard home if necessary to protect their sovereignty.

So here is my question.  Do you know anything about this?  I would be in total agreement if the guard was called up and remained in their home state.  If they were shuffled around my guess is it would be chaos.

regards,
5412

Offline CG6468

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Re: WHAT WE CAN EXPECT UNDER MARTIAL LAW
« Reply #10 on: June 20, 2011, 04:45:31 PM »
Either a Guardsman is a patriot or he is not. Either he supports blammo or he does not. That wouldn't change no matter what state he or she is in.

At least that's what I believe.
Illinois, south of the gun controllers in Chi town

Offline DumbAss Tanker

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Re: WHAT WE CAN EXPECT UNDER MARTIAL LAW
« Reply #11 on: June 20, 2011, 05:12:57 PM »
Hi 5412; basically declaring martial law is a total 'Last resort' situation which would only happen after true chaos had already broken out, mainly because until it does, the military component of it has huge issues with using force on anyone as you surmised.  And, essentially, the Posse Comitatus Act only permits the restoration of order, not pre-emptive use of military force to supplant civil authority.

What would actually happen if there were total chaos in the streets depends on a lot of variables that are scenario-dependent, such as whether Guard or Regulars would be used (The Army Reserve has been completely gutted over the last 20 years and isn't much of a factor as a force provider, it paid the political bills to preserve large Guard organizations and so lost all its large combat arms formations and is now mostly combat service support units, plus some combat support ones).  Another big factor is just exactly what would be the underlying cause of the chaos in the first place. 

However, outside certain already-disarmed metropolitan areas, the natural security-biased impulse of the police and military officers to disarm everyone in the affected area is going to be extremely poorly received, and a lot of the enlisted troops who would be charged with the job have grave reservations about the wisdom or legality of it, and the results would be extremely unpredictable.

My sense of it is that military people below flag rank have a pretty clear idea just how badly that unpredictability could turn out, but political leaders and people whose jobs are tied to them (Including many generals and most police leadership) are perfectly willing to suspend their common sense, Constitutional obligations, and generally any ties to reality when it comes down to following an idiotic order.  There is an excellent chance that trying to enforce such an order would wreck the military organization on which the duty fell, with large-scale desertions, order refusals, or even defections.

True martial law has never been imposed in the modern US on any scale, the closest we have come is the large race riots of the late 60s era, but even then offenders were still taken to civilian lock-ups and their cases handled by civilian courts, not by military tribunals.  The legal rangefan of what can be done has only narrowed since then, due to both GWOT issues over the Gitmo tribunals and events like NOLA.  Trying to declare martial law on any wide scale now would be an absolutely desperate act that no sane President would try, and while Obama may by a starry-eyed Prog numbskull with less understanding of economics and military affairs than your average 14th-Century village idiot, he isn't actually insane.               
Go and tell the Spartans, O traveler passing by
That here, obedient to their law, we lie.

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Offline 5412

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Re: WHAT WE CAN EXPECT UNDER MARTIAL LAW
« Reply #12 on: June 20, 2011, 10:35:21 PM »
Hi,

Thanks Tanker for the education.  Now I want to couple what you said with what I fear and believe.

Martial law then would be a tool for a communist to take over this country, one a very bright idealist communist leader in the white house could indeed seriously consider.

What surprised and bothered me about your response was the military leadership.  I have met Schwartzkof and had a one on one with him for about an hour after he retired.  I would follow him for sure.  As you well know the true test of leadership is followers want to follow. 

My oldest son went to the naval academy and did very well.  One of the true tests of an officer is not to give an subordinate an order they know they cannot carry out, they would lose more than all their credibility.  You described such a situation where the high NCO's would revolt, I doubt that the lower lever enlisted men would have to make those decisions, senior NCO's would know better.

I always felt that if it got to the point where the president tried to suspend the constitution that either Franks, Schwartkof or maybe Petraeus would step in and say enough is enough and we may have a military leadership until order is restored.  God help us if they don't.

Best personal regards,
5412

Offline namvet

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Re: WHAT WE CAN EXPECT UNDER MARTIAL LAW
« Reply #13 on: June 21, 2011, 08:37:25 AM »
hopefully in 012 we get rid of this dictator and his storm troopers legally. I knew back in 08 we were headed for trouble. a lot of us did. and for the first time in my life a civil war did cross my mind. never thought I'd live to hear those words.
but the day after the election I had all my investments/401K's bundled and sent out of this country. no way in hell was I about to let some sticky fingered pimp touch it. I also made arrangements for the wife and I to leave the country. given time of course.   
 Martial law, for whatever reason would mark the end of us all. and its exactly what our enemies are waiting for.   

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Offline SSG Snuggle Bunny

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Re: WHAT WE CAN EXPECT UNDER MARTIAL LAW
« Reply #14 on: June 22, 2011, 10:16:10 PM »
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My sense of it is that military people below flag rank have a pretty clear idea just how badly that unpredictability could turn out, but political leaders and people whose jobs are tied to them (Including many generals and most police leadership) are perfectly willing to suspend their common sense, Constitutional obligations, and generally any ties to reality when it comes down to following an idiotic order.  There is an excellent chance that trying to enforce such an order would wreck the military organization on which the duty fell, with large-scale desertions, order refusals, or even defections.

"No sir, we did not observe any weapons while on the premises."
According to the Bible, "know" means "yes."