primitives discuss military heroism

[franksolich]

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x8800287

Oh my.

unhappycamper  (1000+ posts)        Fri Jul-23-10 06:19 AM
Original message
 
Why It's Wrong to Equate Military Service With Heroism 
William J. Astore, Retired lieutenant colonel (USAF)
Posted: July 22, 2010 09:36 AM

When I was a kid in the 1970s, I loved reading accounts of American heroism from World War II. I remember being riveted by a book about the staunch Marine defenders of Wake Island and inspired by John F. Kennedy’s exploits saving the sailors he commanded on PT-109. Closer to home, I had an uncle -- like so many vets of that war, relatively silent on his own experiences -- who had been at Pearl Harbor when the Japanese attacked on December 7, 1941, and then fought them in a brutal campaign on Guadalcanal, where he earned a Bronze Star.

Such men seemed like heroes to me, so it came as something of a shock when, in 1980, I first heard Yoda’s summary of war in The Empire Strikes Back. Luke Skywalker, if you remember, tells the wizened Jedi master that he seeks “a great warrior.” “Wars not make one great,” Yoda replies.

Okay, it was George Lucas talking, I suppose, but I was struck by the truth of that statement. Of course, my little epiphany didn’t come just because of Yoda or Lucas. By my late teens, even as I was gearing up for a career in the military, I had already begun to wonder about the common ethos that linked heroism to military service and war. Certainly, military service (especially the life-and-death struggles of combat) provides an occasion for the exercise of heroism, but even then I instinctively knew that it didn’t constitute heroism.

Ever since the events of 9/11, there’s been an almost religious veneration of U.S. service members as “Our American Heroes” (as a well-intentioned sign puts it at my local post office). That a snappy uniform or even intense combat in far-off countries don’t magically transform troops into heroes seems a simple point to make, but it’s one worth making again and again, and not only to impressionable, military-worshipping teenagers.

Here, then, is what I mean by “hero”: someone who behaves selflessly, usually at considerable personal risk and sacrifice, to comfort or empower others and to make the world a better place. Heroes, of course, come in all sizes, shapes, ages, and colors, most of them looking nothing like John Wayne or John Rambo or GI Joe (or Jane).

“Hero,” sadly, is now used far too cavalierly. Sportscasters, for example, routinely refer to highly paid jocks who hit walk-off home runs or score game-winning touchdowns as heroes. Even though I come from a family of firefighters (and one police officer), the most heroic person I’ve ever known was neither a firefighter nor a cop nor a jock: She was my mother, a homemaker who raised five kids and endured without complaint the ravages of cancer in the 1970s, with its then crude chemotherapy regimen, its painful cobalt treatments, the collateral damage of loss of hair, vitality, and lucidity. In refusing to rail against her fate or to take her pain out on others, she set an example of selfless courage and heroism I'll never forget.

stray cat (1000+ posts)     Fri Jul-23-10 08:23 AM
Response to Original message
 
1. We cheapen the word hero every day on the right and on the left

people are heros if they get fired wrongly, if they speak up even if the info is wrong, if someone likes something someone said

Yeah, the primitives do cheapen the word "hero."

Like calling the chinless wonder the hefty heiferette Lil Ava "courageous."

pinboy3niner  (1000+ posts)      Fri Jul-23-10 09:01 AM
Response to Reply #1
 
2. I don't think we make heroes out of people because they were fired wrongly

We don't admire Shirley Sherrod because she was fired unjustly. Her personal ordeals and transformation and her commitment to fairness and justice for all are inspiring, earning her a place as one of our everyday heroes. She provides an amazing example to all of us.

We all have heroes who never jumped on a grenade, yet they remain heroes to us.

NJmaverick  (1000+ posts)      Fri Jul-23-10 09:16 AM
Response to Original message

3. I couldn't disagree more. Our soldiers are heroes and they deserve our respect and admiration

pinboy3niner  (1000+ posts)      Fri Jul-23-10 09:36 AM
Response to Reply #3
 
6. Respect and admiration are fine

It's been a long time since I served, but I'd think our troops might feel uncomfortable at being called heroes--especially if they've served with others whom THEY regard as heroes.

I've known some Medal of Honor recipients who we regard as heroes. I also knew many others who are heroes in my eyes, whether or not they were recognized as such, but my estimation was based on what they DID, not just the fact that they served.

When I came back from my war, I didn't want to be called a hero. Some recognition might have been nice, but most of all what I wanted was understanding, instead of disparagement. I suspect it's the same for today's troops. They only want someone to understand what they've done, what they've gone through in our name.

14thColony  (1000+ posts)      Fri Jul-23-10 10:42 AM
Response to Reply #3
 
15. Sorry to disagree with you

Although I get your meaning. I retired from the military after 20 years this past January. I did a year in Afghanistan, plus deployments to many other garden spots around the world. I was never even close to being a hero and I always recoiled a bit from that appelation, or its first cousin, "thank you for your service."

I joined the service because I thought it would be fun and I wanted to see the world. It was fun and I did get to see the world, but there was absolutely nothing I did that was heroic in the least. I did my job to the best of my ability, but then don't most people? In my view teachers and firefighters/EMTs out-hero the hell out of most military personnel every working day of their lives.

Of course I also think the term is so over-used as to have little meaning left.

Uh huh, it's overused.  Like with Lil Ava.

Obamanaut  (1000+ posts)      Fri Jul-23-10 10:00 AM
Response to Original message
 
9. I went to basic training four days after HS graduation, because I didn't know what else to do. I stayed in for 28 years. It was a job, actually a variety of jobs. ETA graduated HS 1960, retired 1988

One of them was flight engineer in WC and EC 121 aircraft, the same kind that was shot down in the late 1960s - an unarmed plane with the loss of the entire crew.

Our (my unit) primary mission was weather recon in the Pacific, finding and flying into typhoons.

I married, had kids, went to college during those 28 years. My family was fed and clothed because of what I did. It was a job. There were and are many like me who are not, and were not, heroes just by virtue of being in the military. It was a job. I flew into typhoons at night, landed over hostile troops in ChuLai and DaNang, later worked on the flight deck of carriers amidst jets taxing about with intakes and exhausts everywhere.

It was a variety of jobs, none heroic, and I enjoyed them - every one.

Donnachaidh  (1000+ posts)      Fri Jul-23-10 10:10 AM
Response to Original message
 
11. It's also the 4th point in the 14 points towards fascism

http://www.favreau.info/misc/14-points-fascism.php

4.Supremacy of the Military

Even when there are widespread domestic problems, the military is given a disproportionate amount of government funding, and the domestic agenda is neglected. Soldiers and military service are glamorized.

In our society, especially with all the pr being deployed to recruit, military service is being glamorized. It's a real danger point (and no, this is not to denigrate those who are serving or who have served).

We should question WHY this tactic is being utilized.

GreenEyedLefty  (665 posts)        Fri Jul-23-10 10:19 AM
Response to Original message
 
12. "Hero" is just another product churned out by corporate America

And consumed by the unthinking masses.

The military is elevated to a grotesque, almost god-like proportion - the proof is in the "blasphemy" of those who dare to be anti-war or critical of the military.

Even individual soldiers are reduced to being mere "troops," not unlike the clones of Star Wars. And yet, we're told our soldiers are heroes. Heroes for what? Making the world safer for corporate America, perhaps?

Such a strange, strange world we live in.

I need to edit this... This post is not to suggest that our soldiers are not worthy of respect. They most certainly are. It's sickening to me just how many of our brightest and best men and women have sacrificed their brains and limbs, and for what? <shaking head>

DirkGently  (622 posts)        Fri Jul-23-10 10:22 AM
Response to Original message
 
13. The term is, sadly, now used so much for propaganda that it has lost a lot of meaning. Those who benefit from war have worked hard to make "hero" a dogmatic response, so that when we're talking about someone who, for example, has been maimed or killed in one of these wars, the conversation cannot be shifted to whether the war itself was worth the sacrifice. It IS heroic to volunteer to put one's life at risk for the sake of the country; unfortunately, the relative need for that risk has been intentionally dropped from the conversation.

Tierra_y_Libertad  (1000+ posts)        Fri Jul-23-10 10:29 AM
THE LIBERTINE TERRORIST PRIMITIVE
Response to Original message

14. They paid me $79 a month to be a "hero" and wanted me to kill people so LBJ could look tough. 

Fortunately, when they asked me extend my enlistment to go to Vietnam I was able to refuse. Later they weren't asking they were telling and 59,000 of them died for political expediency. Now, it's in Afghanistan that the cannon fodder are killing and dying for political expediency.

Steely_Dan (1000+ posts)      Fri Jul-23-10 11:11 AM
Response to Original message
 
16. This sort of reminds me...

of the report that during the war in Granada (I think it was Granada or it could have been Panama), there were more medals handed out than there were soldiers participating.

It's funny that this issue would come up. I have been telling my wife for years that the term "hero" is now so watered down that it has lost its meaning.

Yeah, like the "heroism" of the hefty heiferette Lil Ava.

[JohnnyReb]

They paid me $79 a month to be a "hero" and wanted me to kill people so LBJ could look tough.

Never got above E-1 and no combat pay....you did LBJ and other democrats proud.

[TheSarge]

Now, it's in Afghanistan that the cannon fodder are killing and dying for political expediency.

**** you.

[vesta111]

**** you.

What is the definition of a hero .?

Is this a soldier that throws themselves on a land mine to save the lives of others.?

Are these Heros the fire fighters that risk life and limb to enter a burning building knowing there is a child inside.?

Seems to me a true Hero knows full well that their actions will save the lives of others.  They know they may die but they go forth to do what they need to do.

Civillian heros that were in New York when a plane crashed into sub freezing water. They knew they could not swim yet grabbed a board and paddled out to rescue the survivors.  Heros that knew they could die yet placed the lives of strangers above their own.

There is a difference between people that see an emergency and without thought run in to help. At no time do they think of their own life, they just react.

What criteria makes a person a Hero.?



   

[TheSarge]

What is the definition of a hero .?

IMHO

He or she is the one that does what needs to be done even though it scares them to death.

Going into a firefight with the enemy to rescue your buddies.

Going into a crumbling collapsing hi rise building to try and save even one person when everyone else is running the opposite way from where you are heading.

Things like that.

[vesta111]

IMHO

He or she is the one that does what needs to be done even though it scares them to death.

Going into a firefight with the enemy to rescue your buddies.

Going into a crumbling collapsing hi rise building to try and save even one person when everyone else is running the opposite way from where you are heading.

Things like that.

Excellent example are there any more.?

[debk]

What is the definition of a hero .?

Is this a soldier that throws themselves on a land mine to save the lives of others.?

Are these Heros the fire fighters that risk life and limb to enter a burning building knowing there is a child inside.?

Seems to me a true Hero knows full well that their actions will save the lives of others.  They know they may die but they go forth to do what they need to do.

Civillian heros that were in New York when a plane crashed into sub freezing water. They knew they could not swim yet grabbed a board and paddled out to rescue the survivors.  Heros that knew they could die yet placed the lives of strangers above their own.

There is a difference between people that see an emergency and without thought run in to help. At no time do they think of their own life, they just react.

What criteria makes a person a Hero.?
   

IMHO

He or she is the one that does what needs to be done even though it scares them to death.

Going into a firefight with the enemy to rescue your buddies.

Going into a crumbling collapsing hi rise building to try and save even one person when everyone else is running the opposite way from where you are heading.

Things like that.

I think both of you have described "Hero" quite well....

It's the person....who risks his/her life....to protect/save another. They do it without wondering what praise they will receive, what pay they will receive, what respect they will receive.

They do it because in their minds and hearts....it's the right thing to do.

Can one individual be a "hero" to another? Of course.

The DU person who said his mother was his hero for all that she had gone through in her life....is "hero" a right term for him to refer to his mother? Absolutely. Because to him, she was...on many levels.

Is it right for a kid to think some sports figure as his "hero"...sure. It's a person who has gotten to the top of his sport against the competition, injury, and sheer desire to succeed.

"Hero" doesn't have just one meaning.

There are heroic single acts, a series of acts, or the behavior of a lifetime.

To me, part of being heroic...is acting upon a situation/s, that an individual is thrust into.. with courage and conviction, doing the "right thing"...regardless of personal gain or injury. A passerby who stops at a car accident and pulls out the accident victim before the car bursts into flames is a hero.

Being in today's military, a police or fire department is the epitome of heroism. Each one of those individuals is willing....has VOLUNTARILY...put themselves into a position, that at any time...they could be called upon to risk their life...knowing full well that there is a chance they could end up seriously hurt or, God forbid, dead. But they are willing to do it....for another person, or many persons, or an entire country.

Some can go an entire career without ever being in imminent danger. Does that make them less than a hero? No....because they were WILLING to stand, if needed.

Not everyone is. For that matter, there are gazillions who aren't willing, and only a few who are. Those who are willing to stand...to me...are true heroes.....MY heroes.

[DumbAss Tanker]

"Hero?!?  A hero is a frickin' sandwich, you idiot!"

-- Don Rickes, in Kelly's Heroes.   

Hero as a paragon of valor is indeed an overused word, but there is another shade of meaning to it, which is that of the chosen champion of your cause in a trial by combat or at great personal risk, and in that sense all our military and first responders are indeed heroes.

[delilahmused]

GreenEyedLefty  (665 posts)        Fri Jul-23-10 10:19 AM
Response to Original message
 
12. "Hero" is just another product churned out by corporate America

And consumed by the unthinking masses.

The military is elevated to a grotesque, almost god-like proportion - the proof is in the "blasphemy" of those who dare to be anti-war or critical of the military.

Even individual soldiers are reduced to being mere "troops," not unlike the clones of Star Wars. And yet, we're told our soldiers are heroes. Heroes for what? Making the world safer for corporate America, perhaps?

Such a strange, strange world we live in.

I need to edit this... This post is not to suggest that our soldiers are not worthy of respect. They most certainly are. It's sickening to me just how many of our brightest and best men and women have sacrificed their brains and limbs, and for what? <shaking head>

Blah, blah, blah...same old liberal Che Marxist talking point that's been uttered since the 60's..."get with the NOW, man!" Seriously, maybe it's time to change the drug of choice because this one is keeping you in a time warp. But if you think they're only keeping corporate America safe, you're welcome to go to Afghanistan and try to make friends with the Taliban. I'm sure they'd agree with everything you said...if you're alive long enough to tell them. Oh, and it appears you're (thankfully) in the minority: military ranks first in confidence.

So **** you and the baboon your mother ****ed so you could get here. I need a drink and a bowl of Special K!

Cindie

[debk]

GreenEyedLefty  (665 posts)        Fri Jul-23-10 10:19 AM
Response to Original message
  It's sickening to me just how many of our brightest and best men and women have sacrificed their brains and limbs, and for what? <shaking head>

What's sickening is that our brightest and best are sacrificing themselves for pieces of shit like you and your buddies.

Unlike you and your buddies....they have honor, integrity, and value.

Feel free to go stand in front of them.....their mothers, fathers, family and friends will thank you.

[Airwolf]

How the **** is it that these turd surfers over at DU get to decide who is a hero or not when not one of them would DARE face personel danger to help anyone.

[soleil]

IMHO

He or she is the one that does what needs to be done even though it scares them to death.

Going into a firefight with the enemy to rescue your buddies.

Going into a crumbling collapsing hi rise building to try and save even one person when everyone else is running the opposite way from where you are heading.

Things like that.

Right. And being in the military or a cop or any dangerous job like that, you never know when you will need to be heroic. You can count on it happening at some point though. I wouldn't do it. But I am thankful for those who are willing to do it. That is what makes them heroes and not me.

[Duke Nukum]

I don't see how the prims can discuss two concepts that are utterly alien to them.

[BlueStateSaint]

I don't see how the prims can discuss two concepts that are utterly alien to them.

They live in a fantasy world, so fantasies like this come naturally.

[NHSparky]

More on the subject at TAH:

LINK

[diesel driver]

"Hero?!?  A hero is a frickin' sandwich, you idiot!"

-- Don Rickes, in Kelly's Heroes.   

Hero as a paragon of valor is indeed an overused word, but there is another shade of meaning to it, which is that of the chosen champion of your cause in a trial by combat or at great personal risk, and in that sense all our military and first responders are indeed heroes.

Actually, it was "Oddbal" (Donald Sutherland) who told "Crapgame" (Don Rickles):
"To a New Yorker like you, a 'hero' is some kind of weird sandwich."
In reply to Crapgame's comment about Oddball taking on 3 Tiger tanks with his 1 Sherman....

[DumbAss Tanker]

Right you are, I need to dig out that flick and watch it (Yet) again.