Author Topic: In the interest of bipartisanship  (Read 2498 times)

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Offline Allentownjake

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In the interest of bipartisanship
« on: January 17, 2010, 08:40:26 AM »
"When power leads man toward arrogance, poetry reminds him of his limitations. When power narrows the area of man's concern, poetry reminds him of the richness and diversity of existence. When power corrupts, poetry cleanses." John F. Kennedy

Most of you know me as the Allentowndude primitive.  This type of post would of course been deleted at DU.  I'm a  liberal on more than a few issues, that being said outside of the internet bubble I have quite a few conservative friends.  HCR is a disaster and it is costing the democratic party dearly.  At the suggestion of Franksolich I'm cross posting this here. 

When the party passed the stimulus and promptly moved onto the Health Care Reform debate in 2009, I scratched my head a little bit.  Back in March the Obama administration seemed to be heading in the right direction.  The party and the President seem engaged on the economic crisis and the President was polling in the low 60% in the approval ratings.
 
Flash forward to January of 2010 and the President is polling anywhere from 50% to below 50% nationally.  In the bluest of blue states he is down to 55% for Massachusetts.  I've been reading media reports all weekend and there are a few things I can read from what is happening in Massachusetts.  A 7 month debate on health care when unemployment increases 4% nationally in the U3 number and even more in the U6 will do that to a political party.
 
1) Coakley has run an awful campaign.  Absolutely horrible.  It is off message, the candidate has skipped engaging the public, and she underestimated her opponent.  Yesterday candidate Coakley in a very Catholic state suggested that Devout Catholics shouldn't work in an emergency room when pressed on a question of birth control.  She rolled out Vicki Kennedy when her opponent was saying the seat doesn't belong to the Kennedy family but to the people.  She is bringing in the heavy weights (Bill and Barack) in the last weekend and frankly that always appears desperate.  On the flip side, Brown has run a near flawless campaign.   The most troubling part of the Suffolk poll is favorabilty.  Coakley at 49%  Brown at 59%.  There is some hubris from the Coakley campaign till this weekend.  Assuming you are going to win a general election in bad economic times because your state is a traditional democratic strong hold is idiocy at the finest.
 
2) If the Suffolk poll is to be believed, 48% of voters oppose the Federal HCR bill and 61% believe the governement doesn't have the ability to pay for it.  90% of those polled believe we are still in a recession.  The President recorded robo calls last night for Coakley's support of HCR.  38% of Mass voters view it as the number one issue, 44% view the economy as the number one issue.   Mass is sitting at about 9% unemployment for a U3 number, slightly below the national average.  48% of the populace oppose the HCR bill, so trying to prevent it's passage might be their #1 issue.  Making robo calls for a bill that half the populace opposes the weekend before a special election is a giant blind spot by the party.  Sometimes I just scratch my head that these were the same guys who ran such a brilliant campaign in 2008.
 
3) GOTV will be interesting.  There are very effective GOTV directors in both parties that come from Mass, however their experience in the democratic party is primarily concerned with primaries for state wide elections.  52% of Mass voters are unaffiliated or 3rd party by 2008 voter registration statistics, 11% are GOP and 37% are Democrats.  Judging Coakley's absolute incompetence in the rest of the campaign,  I doubt she's ID the independent supporters well.  They can send in all the cavalry they want to, if they don't know who they are targeting outside of the party, they got some trouble.  I'm reading different reports about the Bill Clinton rally.  While it was a widely attended event, it appears there was a substantial number of Brown activist who showed up outside the event.  Not a good sign. 

 
If Coakley loses on Tuesday or if it is very close, the following will be the talking points from the White House:
 
1) Coakley ran a bad campaign.  This has no bearing on the President's agenda or his popularity.
 
2) The President did not engage in the campaign till the last weekend.  See point number 1.
 
3) This election was not about Health Care reform and was a reaction to the recovery not being fully seen on Main Street. This has no reflection on November 2010.  The last point being nonsense since the opponent ran against the health care reform bill.  If you can't sell this bill in Mass, a state that already has a mirror of it, you know how popular it will be nationwide. 

In reality, a loss or a narrow win is a reflection on the national party's popularity.  In 2009 we lost a Governor's race in blue NJ and got slaughtered in purple Virginia.  The strength of a party is not that your strong candidates win elections.   Maybe it speaks to the awfulness of the two party system but 20% of your candidates are home runs, 20% of your candidates are good, 40% of your candidates are just ok, and 20% of your candidates are poor.  Your strength is determined when you can push your ok to poor candidates over the finish line.
 
We shall see how this plays out in 2010.  HCR could be seen as a miserable failure politically if the party's decision to take its attention from the economy onto health insurance results in a resuscitated GOP and electoral losses for democrats.  Judging by the bill's content, it will probably be a miserable failure policy wise, and any attempt to "fix it later" will be blocked by less democratic seats in the US House and US Senate.  Not that, that matters.   The campaign finance situation in the US currently almost assures us that this bill in present form will be status quo for quite sometime.  If something benefits a large business interest, it will take a national revolt for the congress critters to do anything, because as the right hand is saying we need to fix this, the left hand will be taking campaign cash from the interest that need to be dressed down.  A wise man said you cannot serve two masters, and you can't.
 
In politics an ugly win is still a win, however ugly wins can be signs of things to come.  Which is what may happen in Massachusetts.  The fact that it is Massachusetts might be the only thing that saves the 60 votes.  A 51% win by Coakley will be spun as the greatest win in history.  Anything under 55% is bad news.  The one bright spot in the past 3 months of electoral losses was the Bill Owens victory and even there, our candidate didn't get above 50%.
 
Of course, those on here with the stomach to still post on DemocraticUnderground will see the same denial we've seen since around August.  Bad candidate (she won statewide office in 2006 with 73% of the vote),  nothing can be extrapolated from this race (a loss or a close call in one of our base states for the seat held by a recently deceased party icon), Barack Obama is still very popular (despite a 7 point drop from his electoral victory in the recent polling in Mass and the opponent making this about Barack Obama).  You all know that even a loss of Barack Obama in 2012 would be spun somehow as not his fault by the non-reality based community.
 
I've been seeing a disturbing trend in democratic politics since around June of 2009.  Right around the time, people started to realize that Barack Obama's victory wasn't the end of the republican party.   Arrogance is the only word I can describe for it.  I honestly think people started to believe their own press releases.  Think the HCR bill is a gift to the very corporations that caused the health care crisis?  Stop whining, we are making history, Barack Obama would not do that etc.  Think that the economic recovery efforts have been too focused on bailing out the very people who crashed the system and reform efforts stifled by the party? Stop whining, you don't understand economics, the recovery is only 1, 2, maybe 3 months away at the most, we saved the world.  Do you feel that civil rights issues have been totally abandoned? Stop whining, you cause us to lose elections in swing areas (amazing how the leadership appear pretty capable of doing that on their own),  do you want a Palin Presidency?

When your number one defense against administration or congressional action is pretending your supporters are stupid and don't see your greatness, you are in for some trouble.
 
It sounds terrible, but I don't care that much about the results of this race.  With 60 votes, our Senate has been totally incapable and inept of addressing any of the enormous problems we faced in 2009.  I don't believe they are going to prove themselves any more capable in 2010 either.  Lots of window dressing, no substance.  I'm under no delusion that the GOP will be any better.  However, when you fail as representatives of the people, your party loses elections.  In a two party system, that means the other side wins elections even if their solutions are no better or worse than the ones being offered by the incumbent party.
 
Get ready folks, 2010 will be a year of long knives and when people in the party are looking for a scape goat, the liberal activist community is generally the group the party has put on the altar since President Carter's loss to Ronald Reagan in 1980.  The failure of those in Washington to actually do things to help the common man, will be verboten as a discussion point.  Remember, they've been making progress, turning the ship around, stopping the skidding car, saving the world, playing 3-d chess with a Klingon.  While the rest of us, are just a bunch of whiners.
 
I hope we shall... crush in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." --Thomas Jefferson to George Logan, 1816.

Offline NHSparky

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Re: In the interest of bipartisanship
« Reply #1 on: January 17, 2010, 09:16:45 AM »
ATJ, I don't know where you're from, but I would presume you know something of MA politics.

Anything less than a well-into-double-digits victory for Coakley spells BAD news for the Democrats in November, regardless of how it's spun.

Frankly, I'd prefer to watch MSNBC around 8:05 PM Tuesday night, just so I can see the veins bulging on Keef Overtard's head right before it explodes...

“Any man who thinks he can be happy and prosperous by letting the government take care of him better take a closer look at the American Indian.”  -Henry Ford

Offline SSG Snuggle Bunny

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Re: In the interest of bipartisanship
« Reply #2 on: January 17, 2010, 09:30:59 AM »
A long post. A bit cumbersome to parse. Still, on balance a fair post from los otros.

I think what is sinking Obambi and the dems is that, blue or not, people realize you cannot quadruple your deficits to atone for mismanaged financial policy and they know the money never went to where it was supposed to go but became kickbacks to party loyalists.

Then to come along and say the same gov't which is bankrupting SocSec and Medicare are suddenly going to miraculously fix the bad policies in those programs then launch another program that consumes 3 times the GDP of all military spending most of which is more kickbacks to the involved industries just to bribe them into not fighting it with ad buys.

"Popular uprising?"

Brother, we're trying.

Your former enclave calls us Tea-Baggers.

If only they could see you now.

 :evillaugh: :cheersmate:
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Offline Allentownjake

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Re: In the interest of bipartisanship
« Reply #3 on: January 17, 2010, 09:50:56 AM »
A long post. A bit cumbersome to parse. Still, on balance a fair post from los otros.

I think what is sinking Obambi and the dems is that, blue or not, people realize you cannot quadruple your deficits to atone for mismanaged financial policy and they know the money never went to where it was supposed to go but became kickbacks to party loyalists.

Then to come along and say the same gov't which is bankrupting SocSec and Medicare are suddenly going to miraculously fix the bad policies in those programs then launch another program that consumes 3 times the GDP of all military spending most of which is more kickbacks to the involved industries just to bribe them into not fighting it with ad buys.

"Popular uprising?"

Brother, we're trying.

Your former enclave calls us Tea-Baggers.

If only they could see you now.

 :evillaugh: :cheersmate:

Trust me they see me.  I expect some of the ones sending me hate mail on DU to follow me to my new home.  I'm under no delusion that the GOP operates much differently.  However, I'm not going to quietly endorse this type of behavior from my friends, because they give lip service to things I believe in.
I hope we shall... crush in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." --Thomas Jefferson to George Logan, 1816.

Offline SSG Snuggle Bunny

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Re: In the interest of bipartisanship
« Reply #4 on: January 17, 2010, 10:05:53 AM »
Trust me they see me.  I expect some of the ones sending me hate mail on DU to follow me to my new home.  I'm under no delusion that the GOP operates much differently.  However, I'm not going to quietly endorse this type of behavior from my friends, because they give lip service to things I believe in.
The GOP doesn't operate too much differently. Let's face facts: the parties are playing the game between the 40-yard lines. In a way I can understand that in any nation with a political plurality this may not only be natural but necessary to avoid political extremes that exclude significant portions of the population from the social debate.

However, when both sides essentially become the same side you end up with a defacto monopoly and monopolies are bad. They heed only their own voice not the voice of the market/polity.

The Tea Party is good if for no other reason than it challenges the status quo proven by the fact that both parties fear them. Unlike the Greens or Libertarians they are normal people. As such it has been easier to infiltrate the GOP and if the NYT is to be believed that infiltration has already begun on the precinct level.

As you and I were discussing earlier: I just want to be left alone. I don't mind helping folks and I contribute in my own way. But when a bunch of career poll-dancers start telling me what I can buy, for how much and anything I have left over has to be forcibly donated to charity it is time for us to puff-up and say, "No, sir, we will not!" If the statist scheme fails for any one of a number of reasons we are all subjected to it. If the Leave-Me-Alone scheme fails...its only me subjected to it. I have yet to hear a good argue against this fundamental of conservative thought (have you see my thread about UGP and Bobo the Hobo?).
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Offline miskie

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Re: In the interest of bipartisanship
« Reply #5 on: January 17, 2010, 10:11:17 AM »
Allentownjake--

This is a fairly well thought out post - The only thing I would add to it is regardless candidate or popularity, as a rule, Americans really don't care for single-party politics - Even in Massachusetts where The Commonwealth frequently elects Republican Governors. When one adds in depressed economic figures, etc. to the typical political ebb and flow, a normal evolution accelerates to revolution.

The trend in Democratic politics you mention is fairly obvious. We have noticed that the behavior from Democrat Pols and their most sycophantic of supporters ( The bulk of DU, KOS, etc) is to emulate the exact thoughtless "my way or the highway" methodology that they were pointing at the right for doing during the last Presidency. I also think that middle of the road Americans are sick of what they consider needless posturing and bullying by a party unchecked. -- They didn't like it when the Republicans ran the show, and punished the party in 2006 and 2008, and still sore from that, they see the same posturing again and are unwilling to let it continue at all.


Personally, I had written either here or elsewhere that many years from now, the period we live in will be remembered as the Bush/Obama years. I still stand by that statement.


edit - made it more clear I am referring to the OP
« Last Edit: January 17, 2010, 10:25:25 AM by miskie »

Offline longview

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Re: In the interest of bipartisanship
« Reply #6 on: January 17, 2010, 10:13:57 AM »
I appreciate you expressing your thoughts here.

Offline Allentownjake

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Re: In the interest of bipartisanship
« Reply #7 on: January 17, 2010, 10:23:14 AM »
The GOP doesn't operate too much differently. Let's face facts: the parties are playing the game between the 40-yard lines. In a way I can understand that in any nation with a political plurality this may not only be natural but necessary to avoid political extremes that exclude significant portions of the population from the social debate.

However, when both sides essentially become the same side you end up with a defacto monopoly and monopolies are bad. They heed only their own voice not the voice of the market/polity.

The Tea Party is good if for no other reason than it challenges the status quo proven by the fact that both parties fear them. Unlike the Greens or Libertarians they are normal people. As such it has been easier to infiltrate the GOP and if the NYT is to be believed that infiltration has already begun on the precinct level.

As you and I were discussing earlier: I just want to be left alone. I don't mind helping folks and I contribute in my own way. But when a bunch of career poll-dancers start telling me what I can buy, for how much and anything I have left over has to be forcibly donated to charity it is time for us to puff-up and say, "No, sir, we will not!" If the statist scheme fails for any one of a number of reasons we are all subjected to it. If the Leave-Me-Alone scheme fails...its only me subjected to it. I have yet to hear a good argue against this fundamental of conservative thought (have you see my thread about UGP and Bobo the Hobo?).

My fear with the Tea Parties is that they will be co-opted much like the anti-war movements on the left.  The foundation of the Barack Obama campaign was the people in the democratic party who objected to the Iraq war.

You will have little objection from most true liberals on that statement.  The WIC program is a giant corporate handout.  Hand people money to spend.  It is nonsensical.  It is far cheaper for the government to give desperate people food in a crisis than it is to hand them a debit card.
I hope we shall... crush in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." --Thomas Jefferson to George Logan, 1816.

Offline Allentownjake

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Re: In the interest of bipartisanship
« Reply #8 on: January 17, 2010, 10:31:31 AM »
Allentownjake--

This is a fairly well thought out post - The only thing I would add to it is regardless candidate or popularity, as a rule, Americans really don't care for single-party politics - Even in Massachusetts where The Commonwealth frequently elects Republican Governors. When one adds in depressed economic figures, etc. to the typical political ebb and flow, a normal evolution accelerates to revolution.

The trend in Democratic politics you mention is fairly obvious. We have noticed that the behavior from Democrat Pols and their most sycophantic of supporters ( The bulk of DU, KOS, etc) is to emulate the exact thoughtless "my way or the highway" methodology that they were pointing at the right for doing during the last Presidency. I also think that middle of the road Americans are sick of what they consider needless posturing and bullying by a party unchecked. -- They didn't like it when the Republicans ran the show, and punished the party in 2006 and 2008, and still sore from that, they see the same posturing again and are unwilling to let it continue at all.


Personally, I had written either here or elsewhere that many years from now, the period we live in will be remembered as the Bush/Obama years. I still stand by that statement.


edit - made it more clear I am referring to the OP

The same thing happened in the GOP during the Bush years when people who were concerned with spending and the budget spoke up.  What the democrats in leadership don't get, is that most people are not lever pulling party loyalitist.  They were given a shot because they were promising a change in the political environment where you pay back your top supporters with government money.  Instead they continued the practice and in a lot of ways have expanded it using the excuse of the economic crisis.
I hope we shall... crush in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." --Thomas Jefferson to George Logan, 1816.

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Re: In the interest of bipartisanship
« Reply #9 on: January 17, 2010, 10:33:04 AM »
The same thing happened in the GOP during the Bush years when people who were concerned with spending and the budget spoke up.  What the democrats in leadership don't get, is that most people are not lever pulling party loyalitist.  They were given a shot because they were promising a change in the political environment where you pay back your top supporters with government money.  Instead they continued the practice and in a lot of ways have expanded it using the excuse of the economic crisis.

QFT.

Offline JohnnyReb

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Re: In the interest of bipartisanship
« Reply #10 on: January 17, 2010, 10:43:19 AM »
"...help the common man."....that phase when used by a democrat politician has always meant (to me anyway), "Rob the productive to secure the votes of the nonproductive for the democrat party."

 Whenever the democrats have had what I at the time thought was a good idea.... time has proved me stupid, deceived by feelings and blinded by a sense of compassion to the point of being unable to see the eventual outcome of their policies. "The Great Society"....I see every day the harm this has done. My uneducated father told me years ago, "Son. You just can't help some people. The more you do for them the more they expect you to do for them. They get the attitude that you owe it to them." The Old Man was right. "ABORTION:" Thought that was a good thing. A young girl could correct a mistake she might have made and look forward to a better life. 40,000,000+ mistakes later I see that it wasn't intended to correct mistakes but to wreck, destroy, circumvent morals... a moral society held in check by truly strong women, women who wouldn't put up with Bill Clinton's BS behavior. A moral society cannot be readily influenced and led astray by immoral, unscrupulous and scandalous politicians. ....and this PC shit about not hurting peoples 'feelings'...some people need their feeling stomped on in order for them to finally get the idea that they need to improve themselves and their way of life.

Can't find it now but once saw an article on the Census of 1890 (Walter Williams probably). Black and white families were almost equal in marriages, father head of household, illegitimate births. in prison, etc.....compare that to the 2,000 census and you'll see where 75 years of liberalism has brought us.

I could go on but my typing finger is tired.
“The American people will never knowingly adopt socialism. But, under the name of ‘liberalism’, they will adopt every fragment of the socialist program, until one day America will be a socialist nation, without knowing how it happened.” - Norman Thomas, U.S. Socialist Party presidential candidate 1940, 1944 and 1948

"America is like a healthy body and its resistance is threefold: its patriotism, its morality, and its spiritual life. If we can undermine these three areas, America will collapse from within."  Stalin

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Re: In the interest of bipartisanship
« Reply #11 on: January 17, 2010, 10:47:49 AM »
My fear with the Tea Parties is that they will be co-opted much like the anti-war movements on the left. 
I would like to believe that if anyone tries to co-opt it the motivations of the rank and file would detect it and reject it.

It MUST be corrupted in due course but for now it is a genuine force to be reckoned with. Hopefully, by the time it becomes corrupted it will have achieved its primary goal of minimalist government. With the amount of power to grab dramatically reduced perhaps there will be little motivation for the power grabbers and even if the power-grabbers succeed there won't be enough power to wield to our detriment.

That's all we want.

Quote
The foundation of the Barack Obama campaign was the people in the democratic party who objected to the Iraq war.
As the last year has born out the democrat party has no objection to war. Their objection was to Bush successfully prosecuting the war thereby sealing in the public consciousness the idea that the GOP is far more competent at matters of national security. They played the genuine--albeit misguided or outright treasonous anti-war/US groups for the suckers they are. A lot of US troops and Iraqis died needlessly from democrat politicization of national defense and they won't be forgiven in my lifetime.

Quote
You will have little objection from most true liberals on that statement.  The WIC program is a giant corporate handout.  Hand people money to spend.  It is nonsensical.  It is far cheaper for the government to give desperate people food in a crisis than it is to hand them a debit card.
Even then you would see the food being bought from whatever farm concern most benefit the poll-dancers.

Private citizens aren't corruptible like that. Let them handle the charity. As we have proven time and again we are more than willing and capable. Keep government confined to matters that overwhelm local resources for maintaining civil order. As long as there is civil order the American soul will provide the disaster relief or simpler charity.

QFT.
concur
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Offline Allentownjake

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Re: In the interest of bipartisanship
« Reply #12 on: January 17, 2010, 11:12:47 AM »
"...help the common man."....that phase when used by a democrat politician has always meant (to me anyway), "Rob the productive to secure the votes of the nonproductive for the democrat party."

 Whenever the democrats have had what I at the time thought was a good idea.... time has proved me stupid, deceived by feelings and blinded by a sense of compassion to the point of being unable to see the eventual outcome of their policies. "The Great Society"....I see every day the harm this has done. My uneducated father told me years ago, "Son. You just can't help some people. The more you do for them the more they expect you to do for them. They get the attitude that you owe it to them." The Old Man was right. "ABORTION:" Thought that was a good thing. A young girl could correct a mistake she might have made and look forward to a better life. 40,000,000+ mistakes later I see that it wasn't intended to correct mistakes but to wreck, destroy, circumvent morals... a moral society held in check by truly strong women, women who wouldn't put up with Bill Clinton's BS behavior. A moral society cannot be readily influenced and led astray by immoral, unscrupulous and scandalous politicians. ....and this PC shit about not hurting peoples 'feelings'...some people need their feeling stomped on in order for them to finally get the idea that they need to improve themselves and their way of life.

Can't find it now but once saw an article on the Census of 1890 (Walter Williams probably). Black and white families were almost equal in marriages, father head of household, illegitimate births. in prison, etc.....compare that to the 2,000 census and you'll see where 75 years of liberalism has brought us.

I could go on but my typing finger is tired.

Depends on your definition of common man.  To me the average joe trying to make an honest living is the common man and so is the average family running a small business.  A doctor with a general practice one nurse and a secretary is a common person to me.
I hope we shall... crush in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." --Thomas Jefferson to George Logan, 1816.

Offline Allentownjake

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Re: In the interest of bipartisanship
« Reply #13 on: January 17, 2010, 11:17:25 AM »
Not going to get into too much of a fight over the past 8 years but I did give W a chance and he lost me when he told people to shop and sent a small force into Afghanistan.  I follow the Powell doctorine and the FDR principle.  When you go to war, you go to war and all the nation's resources are used to defeat the enemy.

The failure to disarm the populace in both countries left me scratching my head as well.  After beating the Japanese and Germans.  We took their weapons during occupation.
I hope we shall... crush in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." --Thomas Jefferson to George Logan, 1816.

Offline JohnnyReb

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Re: In the interest of bipartisanship
« Reply #14 on: January 17, 2010, 11:23:11 AM »
Depends on your definition of common man.  To me the average joe trying to make an honest living is the common man and so is the average family running a small business.  A doctor with a general practice one nurse and a secretary is a common person to me.

You and I might agree on that definition but a democrat politician means the worthless bum who's vote can be bought with our tax dollar.

You know...I just had an idea....change the voting laws again. You must be 21 years of age, have photo ID and a previous years "positive income" tax return in hand before you're allowed to vote.
“The American people will never knowingly adopt socialism. But, under the name of ‘liberalism’, they will adopt every fragment of the socialist program, until one day America will be a socialist nation, without knowing how it happened.” - Norman Thomas, U.S. Socialist Party presidential candidate 1940, 1944 and 1948

"America is like a healthy body and its resistance is threefold: its patriotism, its morality, and its spiritual life. If we can undermine these three areas, America will collapse from within."  Stalin

Offline JohnnyReb

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Re: In the interest of bipartisanship
« Reply #15 on: January 17, 2010, 11:25:08 AM »
Not going to get into too much of a fight over the past 8 years but I did give W a chance and he lost me when he told people to shop and sent a small force into Afghanistan.  I follow the Powell doctorine and the FDR principle.  When you go to war, you go to war and all the nation's resources are used to defeat the enemy.

The failure to disarm the populace in both countries left me scratching my head as well.  After beating the Japanese and Germans.  We took their weapons during occupation.

They took the military weapons....most of the civilian population didn't have weapons.
“The American people will never knowingly adopt socialism. But, under the name of ‘liberalism’, they will adopt every fragment of the socialist program, until one day America will be a socialist nation, without knowing how it happened.” - Norman Thomas, U.S. Socialist Party presidential candidate 1940, 1944 and 1948

"America is like a healthy body and its resistance is threefold: its patriotism, its morality, and its spiritual life. If we can undermine these three areas, America will collapse from within."  Stalin

Offline Allentownjake

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Re: In the interest of bipartisanship
« Reply #16 on: January 17, 2010, 11:26:28 AM »
They took the military weapons....most of the civilian population didn't have weapons.

The guns they were using came from somewhere.

Unless the media was lying to me, I remember hearing reports at the time of the decision to not disarm the population.

My father who was a lt. in Vietnam kept shaking his head saying dumb dumb dumb.
I hope we shall... crush in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." --Thomas Jefferson to George Logan, 1816.

Offline Carl

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Re: In the interest of bipartisanship
« Reply #17 on: January 17, 2010, 11:33:17 AM »
Not sure how old you are Jake but saw the dems do the same in 1993,they proclaimed Clintons election was a complete repudiation of Reagan and lurched off into the promised utopia of the left.

It bit them in the ass then as it likely will now.

The problem they face is a public that realizes now the "stimulus" wasn`t one..it was pork and payoffs with little results.
HCR is not one because it does nothing to address the underlying issue that has led to high costs...litigation worries.
It has become a symbol of government arrogance and corruption at this point.

Every so often people will rush through the door of the candy store being thrown wide open with promises but once inside the realities of life are still there.

Offline dutch508

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Re: In the interest of bipartisanship
« Reply #18 on: January 17, 2010, 11:45:47 AM »
My prefered method of bipartisanship is shooting them twice.
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Offline JohnnyReb

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Re: In the interest of bipartisanship
« Reply #19 on: January 17, 2010, 11:50:42 AM »
The guns they were using came from somewhere.

Unless the media was lying to me, I remember hearing reports at the time of the decision to not disarm the population.

My father who was a lt. in Vietnam kept shaking his head saying dumb dumb dumb.

You jumped from Japanese and Germans, and I assume WW2, to Viet Nam. Make up your mind which war and what people we're talking about.
“The American people will never knowingly adopt socialism. But, under the name of ‘liberalism’, they will adopt every fragment of the socialist program, until one day America will be a socialist nation, without knowing how it happened.” - Norman Thomas, U.S. Socialist Party presidential candidate 1940, 1944 and 1948

"America is like a healthy body and its resistance is threefold: its patriotism, its morality, and its spiritual life. If we can undermine these three areas, America will collapse from within."  Stalin

Offline 5412

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Re: In the interest of bipartisanship
« Reply #20 on: January 17, 2010, 04:27:19 PM »
"...help the common man."....that phase when used by a democrat politician has always meant (to me anyway), "Rob the productive to secure the votes of the nonproductive for the democrat party."

 Whenever the democrats have had what I at the time thought was a good idea.... time has proved me stupid, deceived by feelings and blinded by a sense of compassion to the point of being unable to see the eventual outcome of their policies. "The Great Society"....I see every day the harm this has done. My uneducated father told me years ago, "Son. You just can't help some people. The more you do for them the more they expect you to do for them. They get the attitude that you owe it to them." The Old Man was right. "ABORTION:" Thought that was a good thing. A young girl could correct a mistake she might have made and look forward to a better life. 40,000,000+ mistakes later I see that it wasn't intended to correct mistakes but to wreck, destroy, circumvent morals... a moral society held in check by truly strong women, women who wouldn't put up with Bill Clinton's BS behavior. A moral society cannot be readily influenced and led astray by immoral, unscrupulous and scandalous politicians. ....and this PC shit about not hurting peoples 'feelings'...some people need their feeling stomped on in order for them to finally get the idea that they need to improve themselves and their way of life.

Can't find it now but once saw an article on the Census of 1890 (Walter Williams probably). Black and white families were almost equal in marriages, father head of household, illegitimate births. in prison, etc.....compare that to the 2,000 census and you'll see where 75 years of liberalism has brought us.

I could go on but my typing finger is tired.

Hi Johnny,

I used to teach a module on Problem Solving.  One of the prime factors was a section titiled, "Look for the effects of your decisions, sometime you can cause a bigger problem."  You illustrated several good examples of that.

Herein lies the problem.  You and I could have predicted the results down the road.  The Great Society did nothing but incentivize out of wedlock birth and many feel it was reponsible for the demise of the black family unit.  I predicted that 40+ years ago when it passed, it did not take a genius to see that.  Just like appeasing terrorists, duh it promotes more terror.

Now the politician sees things differently.  To them long term is the next election cycle.  If passing the law got them re-elected it got the effect they wanted.

Only way I can see to fix this is congressional term limits.

regards,
5412

Offline JohnnyReb

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Re: In the interest of bipartisanship
« Reply #21 on: January 17, 2010, 04:50:12 PM »
Hi Johnny,

I used to teach a module on Problem Solving.  One of the prime factors was a section titiled, "Look for the effects of your decisions, sometime you can cause a bigger problem."  You illustrated several good examples of that.

Herein lies the problem.  You and I could have predicted the results down the road.  The Great Society did nothing but incentivize out of wedlock birth and many feel it was reponsible for the demise of the black family unit.  I predicted that 40+ years ago when it passed, it did not take a genius to see that.  Just like appeasing terrorists, duh it promotes more terror.

Now the politician sees things differently.  To them long term is the next election cycle.  If passing the law got them re-elected it got the effect they wanted.

Only way I can see to fix this is congressional term limits.

regards,
5412

Exactly....I was young and dumb....ruled by emotions and short term thinking...at least in some areas.

About those teenage pregnancies, used to be it was a disgrace for an unwed girl to get pregnant. Now grandmaw and the rest of the family is just thrilled to death when their 14/15/16 announces, "I'm pregnant".....sheesh. Then, even middle class whites,  right off go into how to get government paid healthcare for the expectant mother and child, WIC's vouchers....foodstamps, whatever is free. They've removed the need for a working man in the family. No mention of marriage or "Who's the Daddy" and "What are y'all going to do?" We need to go back to the old way of doing things but oh hell no, that'll never happen.

How many young mothers have you heard say. "I don't need no damn man. I can handle things just fine all by myself." To which I'd like to answer, "Fine then. More power to you.....get off the government tit and out of my hip pocket and do it."
“The American people will never knowingly adopt socialism. But, under the name of ‘liberalism’, they will adopt every fragment of the socialist program, until one day America will be a socialist nation, without knowing how it happened.” - Norman Thomas, U.S. Socialist Party presidential candidate 1940, 1944 and 1948

"America is like a healthy body and its resistance is threefold: its patriotism, its morality, and its spiritual life. If we can undermine these three areas, America will collapse from within."  Stalin

Offline mamacags

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Re: In the interest of bipartisanship
« Reply #22 on: January 17, 2010, 05:41:13 PM »
Welcome Jake.  I enjoy when people come here and behave like adults!  It is so refreshing! :heart:
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Offline Chris_

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Re: In the interest of bipartisanship
« Reply #23 on: January 17, 2010, 06:52:35 PM »
Welcome Jake.  I enjoy when people come here and behave like adults!  It is so refreshing! :heart:

Same from me.....welcome Jake, you bring an interesting perspective on the events......its always a good thing to see first hand, all sides of issues, lest we become an "echo chamber".......

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Offline Allentownjake

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Re: In the interest of bipartisanship
« Reply #24 on: January 17, 2010, 08:00:21 PM »
Not sure how old you are Jake but saw the dems do the same in 1993,they proclaimed Clintons election was a complete repudiation of Reagan and lurched off into the promised utopia of the left.

It bit them in the ass then as it likely will now.

The problem they face is a public that realizes now the "stimulus" wasn`t one..it was pork and payoffs with little results.
HCR is not one because it does nothing to address the underlying issue that has led to high costs...litigation worries.
It has become a symbol of government arrogance and corruption at this point.

Every so often people will rush through the door of the candy store being thrown wide open with promises but once inside the realities of life are still there.

I Prefer not to get into personality debates, however in a lot of ways, Bill Clinton embraced Ronald Reagan more than he repudiated him, while talking shit.  There are things I can agree with the Reagan administration on there are things I can agree with the Clinton administration on.  The areas I disagree generally are in the regards of regulation of banking/insurance/freetrade.  Which is generally the way we got to our present situation.
I hope we shall... crush in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." --Thomas Jefferson to George Logan, 1816.