http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x5804278Oh my.
The large-proboscised primitive, Oscar Wilde:
Cyrano (1000+ posts) Mon Jun-08-09 11:53 AM
Original message
Maybe the Luddites had it right
(If you don’t want to look it up, Luddites were people opposed to the industrial revolution and all the mechanical devices and automation that came with it at the beginning of the 19th century.)
I’ve just finished my monthly bills and have made out checks for my home phone, cell phone, the electric company, the water company, car insurance, my credit card, medical insurance, and a few more things that I didn’t want, but needed.
Had the Luddites been successful in stopping the industrial revolution, I wouldn’t have seen any of these bills, nor even have known what they meant had they arrived in the mail.
Yeah, I know, the advancements of the past 200 years have supposedly improved everyone’s life. But at what cost? For many millennium, people lived without TVs, phones, computers, washing machines, refrigerators and even garbage disposals.
The one thing the industrial revolution did create, after about a century and a half, was a middle class. But we have seen over the past eight years how easy it was for the wealthy, powerful and greedy to destroy the middle class.
So maybe, just maybe, the Luddites were right. It’s something to consider. Especially for those whose jobs have disappeared and unemployment insurance has run out.
Life before the industrial revolution was no bed of roses. But most people knew how to survive and fend for themselves. And for those who didn’t or couldn’t – are they any better off in today’s world? Ask the homeless of New Orleans, or the unemployed in the rust belt, or the millions without health insurance.
For those wondering if I'm really serious about wanting to return to the past, the answer, on most days, is no. But then there are other days on which I think it wouldn't be such a bad idea.
What are your thoughts on this?
HiFructosePronSyrup (1000+ posts) Mon Jun-08-09 11:56 AM
Response to Original message
1. My thought is that you're complaining about technology on an internet message board.
Blue_Tires (1000+ posts) Mon Jun-08-09 11:58 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. lol at that!
Posteritatis (1000+ posts) Mon Jun-08-09 02:24 PM
Response to Reply #1
32. Odd how common that tendency is these days
lukasahero (1000+ posts) Mon Jun-08-09 03:21 PM
Response to Reply #1
64. First thoughts in my head as well
Does the word 'irony' mean anything to people any more?
conspirator (1000+ posts) Mon Jun-08-09 04:02 PM
Response to Reply #1
69. Its not necessarily a paradox.
The reason why so many people use the internet is because they feel alone and isolated because the sense of community and human contact is gone due to the sleep-work-watch-tv wage slave life.
Instead people should have free time to meet real people and make real friendships. Weekends are not enough.
Like they had weekends in the Good Olde Days?
SidDithers (1000+ posts) Mon Jun-08-09 12:13 PM
Response to Original message
9. 200 years ago, the average life expectancy was ~ 40 years...
After which follows discussion of a valid point.
imdjh (1000+ posts) Mon Jun-08-09 12:23 PM
Response to Reply #9
17. 200 years ago people often lived into their 80's.
As with any average, the notion that your average person died at forty is quite different from it being a statistical average. Infant (dying before age 12) mortality was very high which brought the average down. Men who survived to age 30 and women who survived past child bearing age were likely to live into what we would consider old age.
Uh-huh. franksolich has always been leery of history books reminding one that the "average" ancient Roman lived to be circa 30 years, when in fact there were many ancient Romans who lived into their 70s, 80s, and 90s.
If one takes out all the ancient Romans who died before the age of 2 years, the "average" Roman lived to something only slightly less than the current life-span.
"Longevity" has increased only because there is less infant mortality, not because of free medical care for the elderly. Something the mountain man primitive should ponder.
Cyrano (1000+ posts) Mon Jun-08-09 12:38 PM
Response to Reply #11
25. You've hit on a very profound issue here, Locrian.
Who gets to live like kings and who gets to live like peasants, or not at all?
Looking at the genicide in Dafur, the Sudan, and so much more of Africa, we already know that there are those whose existence is of no value to the local warlords, or most other people on the planet who don't even know what's taking place there.
We already know that the impoverished people who once lived, or are still living in New Orleans, are getting to live like peasants, if at all.
How long will it be before the American rust belt starts to look like the backwoods of the film "Deliverance?"
How long will it be before the lack of universal health care really, really turns us into a third-world country?
After 30 years of hell (Reagan through Bush Jr.) I wonder if even Obama can turn this around.
The most grotesque thing of all is that the Republicans are doing everything they possibly can to keep us in the dank, infected sewer they dug for us.
The buzzy one tries to bring in some humor:
Buzz Clik (1000+ posts) Mon Jun-08-09 12:28 PM
Response to Original message
21. Have you checked out the Luddites web site? www.luddite.net
It's a bit sparse, but they do have this comment posted:
"BTW I like your email - luddite.net. How do you check it? Do you have a team of amish scribes copy it down from the video book thingy with the flashy lights?"
Iris (1000+ posts) Mon Jun-08-09 12:33 PM
Response to Original message
24. as a woman, I don't consider washing machines and refrigerators to be luxuries
Just food prep and clothing care alone would take so much time, there'd be little left and that would be spent on other survival chores.
I'd much rather work and pay for the extras and have some free time at the end of my day.
Cyrano (1000+ posts) Mon Jun-08-09 01:17 PM
Response to Reply #24
26. Please reread the last two paragraphs of my OP
I don't want to live without washing machines or refrigerators.
That Original Post is just pointing out how all of today's conveniences come at an unacceptable price. And, unfortunately, that price is far more than money. It's our freedoms.
When local governments want to let the electric company or the phone company raise their rates, which way do they always vote? Can you tell me the last time your electric or phone bill went down?
When developers want to build a new housing or condo complex in your area, does the local zoning board say anything but "YES?" Of course not. Believe it or not, they're on the payroll -- whether that payroll is cash or favors.
Corruption among public officials, local, state and federal, is the norm. This is not to say that every politician is corrupt. There are still valiant people here and there who always fight against the private interests.
Unfortunately, they are always "challenged" during the next election by someone who will "play the game," and is backed by those whose interests are being challenged. And it goes without question that they can well afford to put their bought and paid for candidate into office.
But every time you use your washing machine, please understand that a portion of what you're paying ends up in the pocket of some politician.
Man, that's the best description of life in a political-machine-controlled blue state or blue city, that I've seen on Skins's island.
Raskolnik (1000+ posts) Mon Jun-08-09 02:47 PM
Response to Original message
48. What a silly post.
Your "for many millenium..." argument is just ridiculous, because you fail to acknowledge the fact that for many millenium, life was nasty, brutish, and short for the vast majority of human beings.
The next time you want a drink of clean, disease free water, I suggest you go over to the tap and recognize what a miracle of the modern age we take for granted every damn day. The next time you feel like its such a burden to pay your cell phone bill, I suggest you reflect on the fact that you can communicate with nearly anyone in the world at any time, with a device that fits in your pocket
Occam Bandage (1000+ posts) Mon Jun-08-09 03:03 PM
Response to Original message
54. Throw away your computer and your cell phone, cancel your health insurance and all prescriptions, put your refrigerator, television, and washing machine out on the curb with a "free" sign, and stop paying your electric bill. Throw out any food that has been canned, packaged, or refrigerated, and any out-of-season or out-of-area fruits and vegetables. Hell, throw away anything made from plastic. You don't need any of that to survive or work. It's all luxury. So get rid of it. Come on, do it.
Do it now.
Don't read this post, do it now. Turn off the computer now and do it already.
And see how long it takes you to come crawling back to the modern world. We know this is all rhetorical, and that you recognize you wouldn't want to live like that, and so you won't incur the cost of losing all the things you're complaining about.
But the funny part is, even if you do all the drastic things I've asked, you'll still have not returned to the pre-industrial world, for you'll still have a car, and still have a modern job, and still be able to visit the modern world whenever you like.
There's a reason people in undeveloped countries voluntarily work in sweatshops. Even unregulated, unprotected, proto-industrial life is preferable to the alternative.
